Misogyny or Sexual Persecution? [Update!]

[agent9]

Firstly well written

IMO it depends. People throw the word around to silence people, but I find more often than not they're using it right. Rather than narrowing it down some writers make it black and white. if you like x or support x then this that and the other. Any criticism is met with misogynist, and any skin is seen as objectification by the most unreasonable parties. If you really want to discuss it you would have an open mind. If you look at the definition of these words you would understand how silly some posts are.

for example -Is bayonetta truly objectified, she does look real sexy but she's more than a doll. she owns it and has a personality. you can't both be objectified and have a personality. Duke nukem Forever on the other hand is true objectification. the women in there are treated as flags FFS. you can argue satire but I believe DNF fails even in that regard.

don't get me wrong, I believe there are problems, big ones, but I feel that a lot of people focus on the wrong issues or bring forth issues that are at best grasping at straws. I ask that people take a moment and be open to critique. Rather than saying SJW or misogynist take a moment to think and see if you can see what the other person is bringing up. Feel free to disagree but don't be a jerk about it. cool heads really do prevail.

 

[Rblade]

persecution, yes. Even if it isn't what people mean the discussion is usually dragged into a hostile field. Where groups are lumped together and accused of some crime or insesitivity even if only part of the group are at fault. If those people would be more clear about that distinction (for example, prefacing a statement with "I'm aware that not all men are mysogonistic swines") and be a little heavier on the solutions rather then the accusations to give the men in question a way to get involved in the debate without either being completely black or completely white, that will probably give a much more constructive debate.

Bottom line, if you don't clearly state that you have, for example, nothing against men and video games in general, people will make those assumpions and you will antagonise people that might otherwise have been on your side.

 

[clinicalPsychologist]

That was probably a bad choice of words on my part. In reality there are some things we just don't have words for. There's nothing shameful about having your view point.

I was kidding. Who and how often people have sex with isn't any of my business.

The chainmail bikini doesn't exist because people mistakenly think it'd work as armour, though. It exists because of a desire to depict men and women very differently.

While I usually disagree with you, I generally can't think of a single hole to poke in your arguments. Have to wait for someone else to do it. Still, while (possibly) true, I do believe that it would be easier to argue against them by pointing out they make no goddamn sense. At the very least you'd alienate fewer people.

You might like this blog then:
http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/tagged/reference

 

[Jack Action]

You might like this blog then:
http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/tagged/reference

Let's just say it's not quite my cup of tea and leave it at that, otherwise a flamewar might go off.

 

[grassgremlin]

I don't dislike you both, you have your opinions. I agree, chainmail bikini's are terrible excuses for armor. I like using them and those types of armor in fantasy, sense you can come up with any ridiculous reason for why they are their. Maybe magical force-field.

As an artist, it's usually just fun to suspend a certain sense of disbelief and draw things you'd never see anyone wear in real life, cause screw reality. But, I do understand the various points you guys made. They have no place in such areas as children's fiction or more credible and developed stories. Sex is simply something that is incredibly hard to take seriously, (In the context of a story trying to have a serious plot not about sex) and I completely agree with that.

I like to state my tastes usually veer on the campy, cartoonish or ridiculous side. Stuff I don't have to take to seriously. It's all a manner of taste really, and I respect your right to disagree with me. In fact, I welcome it out of curiosity, actually. Makes me less ignorant if I state my opinions.

...when the hell did the internet become a place where you could have civil conversations with people?

Also, fair enough, I can't (and won't) argue that something makes no sense in an universe that doesn't take itself seriously. It would be pointless, and if we forced everything to make sense we wouldn't have Saints Row or Sam and Max, along with a good chunk of the media produced since ever.

That's in short supply unfortunately, but If I can be the one person to deliver civil conversation maybe others will come to do the same. Most just don't know, people will often pay attention to your point when you're not hurling curse words at them.

On that note, in a perfect world their can be room for both. I don't want all video games to be campy goofy affair as much as I don't want games to start to be some introspective serious artsy mumbo jumbo. At the end of the day video games are entertainment and we need variety.

It seems these voices are drowned out in the arguments. You get either the impression a person wants all sexual content to be censored or that they want everything to be sexy. It's a mess.

Here's what I think. Some people lumped into this argument are trying to defend that they are shameless perverts and should not be chastised for it. Don't hate me because I'm sexually attracted to it. That likely just opens up how society views it.

Now, I do not want to talk against celibate, asexual or puritan people at all. We must still think of the children and in no way would I'd be advocating showing porn to a child in some form. (Though a lot of people believe you should introduce sex to a child as early as possible, that's branching off into a whole new subject.) People are sensitive to some material, how it is.

All I've concluded though . . . this is a really difficult argument.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

snip

Completely agree on this point.

I personally don't believe that a person enjoying a character being depicted in a sexual manner or a character for whom sex or sex appeal are a noticeable part of their personality are necessarily bad things. I'd say you have to look at them more carefully like the examples agent9 provides. And for anyone who enjoys these characters, it certainly doesn't create the immediate thought that they hate women in my mind. Heck, I enjoy them, being a raging hormonal 19 year old male.

So yeah, anyone who tries to shame you for expressing sexuality (whether you're male or female) or your urges is a jerk.

 

[Verlander]

I don't think the problem is with women being objectified, but with women always being objectified. The stories are usually about men, the action is usually male centric, the goals are for men, the community is men... things like "chain mail bikni" aren't the problem as much as they're the indicators.

Of course some women will hate all objectification, you'll never please everyone. I compare it to pop stars - it's empowering when a woman is in control of her sexuality, but it's exploitation when they're made to flaunt it. Neither scenario is free from criticism.

 

[grassgremlin]

I don't think the problem is with women being objectified, but with women always being objectified. The stories are usually about men, the action is usually male centric, the goals are for men, the community is men... things like "chain mail bikni" aren't the problem as much as they're the indicators.

Of course some women will hate all objectification, you'll never please everyone. I compare it to pop stars - it's empowering when a woman is in control of her sexuality, but it's exploitation when they're made to flaunt it. Neither scenario is free from criticism.

With that, I demand a wonderful future. A future where their is "sex tropes vs video games" and it's about all the frequent sex in games that have nothing to do with gender. Then we can say, maybe we should dial back, we're kind of being horn balls, and it be all good. And that be a normal discussion.

I'm shooting in the dark on that one. Yeah, I agree with the sentiment, which is why I demand the scales be balanced. Lift the weight of hetero male sexual desires and bring forth more progressive sexual objectification. In moderation of course, but yes, not all pandering can be bad.

 

[Jesterscup]

Here's what I think. Some people lumped into this argument are trying to defend that they are shameless perverts and should not be chastised for it. Don't hate me because I'm sexually attracted to it. That likely just opens up how society views it.

Now, I do not want to talk against celibate, asexual or puritan people at all. We must still think of the children and in no way would I'd be advocating showing porn to a child in some form. (Though a lot of people believe you should introduce sex to a child as early as possible, that's branching off into a whole new subject.) People are sensitive to some material, how it is.

All I've concluded though . . . this is a really difficult argument.

As you've said yourself, we need to get beyond this. I think most people ( yes supposition here... ) when discussing this calmly , can see points of value.

So firstly: adult stuff, go mental, hell I REALLY want to see some of the OP's work.

Secondly "do it for the kids" I've covered my kids above, but I really wasn't talking about keeping them away from adult materials, every parent is going to do that. But for instance MLP and avatar ( the last airbender ) are amazing show that most adults would enjoy. You'd be surprised how often a trope fills in for meaningful story. it's actually not about isolating them from sex, but from stereotypical tropes.

A good example of this is the 'gay man is camp' trope it's really prevalent in childrens media, right alongside 'token' and 'smurfette' any, and I mean any of these are a reason for a piece of media to be banned in our household. Now don't interpret this as "no gay/black/women" without the word 'stereotypes' in block caps straight afterwards, and thats beyond the fact these are rarely worth watching in the first place. additionally when you have to insert jokes for adults ( yeah we actually call it the "jokes for adults" trope ) to occupy the adults, it's gone.

I think the in-between is where it gets tricky, like bayonetta , star wars & princess peach. And thats where we need to be focussing our discussion.

 

[Jack Action]

That's in short supply unfortunately, but If I can be the one person to deliver civil conversation maybe others will come to do the same. Most just don't know, people will often pay attention to your point when you're not hurling curse words at them.

On that note, in a perfect world their can be room for both. I don't want all video games to be campy goofy affair as much as I don't want games to start to be some introspective serious artsy mumbo jumbo. At the end of the day video games are entertainment and we need variety.

It seems these voices are drowned out in the arguments. You get either the impression a person wants all sexual content to be censored or that they want everything to be sexy. It's a mess.

Here's what I think. Some people lumped into this argument are trying to defend that they are shameless perverts and should not be chastised for it. Don't hate me because I'm sexually attracted to it. That likely just opens up how society views it.

Now, I do not want to talk against celibate, asexual or puritan people at all. We must still think of the children and in no way would I'd be advocating showing porn to a child in some form. (Though a lot of people believe you should introduce sex to a child as early as possible, that's branching off into a whole new subject.) People are sensitive to some material, how it is.

All I've concluded though . . . this is a really difficult argument.

There is room for both, though. The problem for me is when something claims it takes itself seriously and has military characters in the middle of artillery barrages, and then gives them slightly plated spandex armor (see Mass Effect).

On the flipside, one of the most... I loathe the term, "dudebro" third person shooters (Gears of War) realized that it's got squishy humans in active warzones fighting psychotic mole-reptile-people and gave them proper armor, regardless of gender. Which is odd, considering it's a game with chainsaw bayonets.

Also, I somehow doubt puritans would touch video games.

 

[minkus_draconus]

It just leads back to Salman Rushdie's saying "What is freedom of expression without the freedom to offend? It is lost."

I have to say, I'm not really sure why you quoted me, and for the most part I actually agree with you.

That being said, let me share a slightly different point of view. I've got a board gaming family, we play catan, archigelago, blueprints, magewars and many many more games. One game we don't play is munchkin, not because it's not very good, or the game mechanics suck, because the humour and sillyness makes up for it. NO we don't play it for the art. We don't play it because I've an 8yr old Daughter, and frankly we vet a lot of our media ( actually all of it ), for messages and subtexts. In munchkins case all the women are highly sexualised, busty & underdressed. Now I don't want that game banned, I'm not going to moan to/about the artist, I celebrate his right to create art like that. But it saddens me that I've one less game to play with the family because of said art. The same is done for children's media, where tropes and stereotypes are also all pervasive, that which is not suitable is simply not allowed.

Now yes you can say thats censorship, and perhaps it is. But before you do, what is being asked is "is this suitable for this person who I have a legal and ethical duty over. Am I doing my best at raising a healthy balanced individual", and also if I cannot censor that what right have I to censor other materials thats not suitable?

I think a perfect example of this is The Super Hero Squad Show in season one. Ms. Marvel (and other females) are portrayed horribly. The most telling event was when she brags about framing some employee and having him fired for no reason and giggles. Totally a WTF moment. My wife and I had a lot of discussions about that first season and if it was at all appropriate for children to be exposed to that kind of bullshit portrayal of females.

To their credit in the late 1st and all the second season Ms. Marvel was written as the character should have been. I think having a female character in the core group and having to think about the character changed the tone of how the writers were handling them.

Edit: Typo

 

[neokiva]

I will raise a very peculiar question never seemed to be asked in this debate and something brought on by Jim Sterlings videos - Solving the Sexism Situation. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3150-Solving-the-Sexism-Situation

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

I can not relate to a heterosexual man, but I can relate to the concept of sexual persecution and it's prevalence mostly in America.

I am a objectify of men. I draw and write porn based on varieties of my own kinks involving men, sometimes women, but mostly men. I will often consume games, as guilty pleasures where I can play or create the sexiest male character. I often wish that developers could provide me with my carnal needs including having outfits which are gender neutral or show as much skin as humanly possible. The thought of a man wearing a chain male bikini is extremely hot to me, according to the male builds I like. I alternate between big muscular men, lithe feminine men or something in between.

The thought of being labeled things like pervert, being ostracized for my sexual urges tick me off. How dare people tell me I can't like what I like? How dare they tell me when I work on a game or comic I can't put as many under-dressed men making out in my game as I fucking want? I don't make games for children, I make grown adult games with all the sexual objectification my heart desires.

Now equate that to current tastes of how games are now. We have a game like Dead or Alive. One could have a filled day with the objectification. Or how about the big boobed sorceress in Dragon's Crown. It was pretty insulting to be compared to the sexual urges of a 12 year old boy. I compare that to me own in some way. Are my urges the same as a very gay 12 year old boy?

I do not think Anita Sarkeesian wants to take away you want and desires, but I've found that some people are upset that despite fitting the criteria of heterosexual men, they are being persecuted because they just so happen to be sexually attracted to women and there purchasing, while not all the time, I'm sure, can be governed by how much fan service or sexual situations are in a product.

I can attest that I don't play Ash Crimson because he's a cool fighting game character. Oh, no, the mountains of rule 34 I've gone through starring that character can vouch that there were much more involved in my choice. He's still cool to play, just fucking hard.

In a perfect world, everyone would have their cheese cake and eat it too.

I may be wrong, but it's a conclusion I've come to, so let's open a discussion for this debate.

okay first off i am a bisexual transexual furry hardcore gamer am I a misogynist no how can i be a mysogynist if i feel like I am a woman. question 2 the reason people hate discussions on this subject are three fold, in the recent past our hobby has been attacked, this insane lawyer waged a war against us (many of his so called findings, ie the same as anita have already been proven to be false.) we won after a long a weary war we won, then feminism/sjw for some reason decides their poison is required in our hobby. because they must spread their toxic over sensitivity everywhere, everyone must be a special snowflake and at first we didn't notice, we were tired. every now and then we would hear rumblings of some people copying that lawyer, but for the most part all was well our hobby was safe or so we thought. zip through to 2013 anita the liar, scamming, thief, pops up an steals a lot of gullible feminist money to make a poorly researched and ultimately biased videos. the quality of which are so poor and the arguements she makes not only false but show a distinct lack of human decency, you would have to wonder were that 160k went *cough* her pocket*cough*
and thus started the sjw/feminist war against us, you may ask why did they care it's not like they were invested in our hobby our culture, no they just wanted to spread the same sickness they had peddled to tumblr, atheism, movies and tv.
they changed definitions of words to fit their goal, change the meaning of misogynist to mean anyone that disagrees with them so they can shame the people making real arguments, they framed women as weak willed, fragile china dolls who can't think for themselves, saying that the patriarchy (another word they changed the definition of) brainwashed the women who are normal and actually are okay with their sexuality and don't feel oppressed. they use the word objectification the act of which everyone does to everyone at some point in their lives (ie anyone who has a job or employees). they made a false claim that being sexually attracted to women means a man thinks a woman is an object sorry but that is just bullshit not many people want to fuck objects (a minority fetish) and in fact many men care for the women in their lives.
this hobby is about playing games nothing else it is escapism as in not real.

as for the whole you objectify men, no you don't your a woman that is okay with her sexuality and doesn't feel shame from it, and few if any normal person will tell you, you shouldn't do that.
what anita sarkeesian wants to do is get rid of troupes which are integral to all media(that appear in all media regardless and while some are lazy others are main stays because they work)
again with that word objectification, women are not objects just because they are sexualized do men complain that they appear headless in women's media without shirts on, no of course not because they aren't insane enough to force themselves into what is essentially a female dominated place and demand everything be about them or some perceived sexism, and now yes women who play core games exist now (wewt)and just played games okay some of them do complain about lack of representation to other gamers (but they never do anything other than whine about it, instead of you know making the publishers care about them as a market or make the games themselves no that'd be too hard.) as for the dead or alive series meh the main fighting games are okay(though the dead or alive volley ball breast physics are just ridiculous)
as for the sorceress true you don't need massive boobs in fact massive boobs are a turn off mine, but guess what they exist in reality (do yourself a favour don't look for it, you will hate yourself for doing so)and some people get off on monster boobs, but remember one thing it's not real and no one is hurt and anyone who's sane is not going to go to a woman and tell them they need tits like the sorceress that's just stupid. although that is the narrative constantly spun by anita and those like her that we are all horny asshats that don't want proper female characters, trust me unless they are trolling most gamers want female characters as well as male it's the publishers who get in the way.

tl;dr not misogynist (miss used word)
not persecuted
want more female characters (publishers don't want that)
women welcome so long as they come to game and not ***** about games something they don't really care about and have no vested interest in.
objectification a word that means nothing in the context in which it is used.
sexuality in men and women is cool, only feminists hate that.
media has no fucking effect on people as several judges, several studies have ruled on anita fuck off you lying scamming thief. your not welcome here.
zoe quinn can also fuck of for cheating on her husband, and for sleeping around just to get her game through steam and to falsify reviews.
you can like what the fuck you want, so long as you don't force me to conform to what you find sexually appealing and i wont do the same to you.

oh and wasn't it zoe quinn who destroyed a game jam aimed at getting women interested in game dev you know by helping women out with the difficult part. then zoe comes along fucks it up, then starts her own fake jam and steals all the money from that.

 

[grassgremlin]

Here's what I think. Some people lumped into this argument are trying to defend that they are shameless perverts and should not be chastised for it. Don't hate me because I'm sexually attracted to it. That likely just opens up how society views it.

Now, I do not want to talk against celibate, asexual or puritan people at all. We must still think of the children and in no way would I'd be advocating showing porn to a child in some form. (Though a lot of people believe you should introduce sex to a child as early as possible, that's branching off into a whole new subject.) People are sensitive to some material, how it is.

All I've concluded though . . . this is a really difficult argument.

As you've said yourself, we need to get beyond this. I think most people ( yes supposition here... ) when discussing this calmly , can see points of value.

So firstly: adult stuff, go mental, hell I REALLY want to see some of the OP's work.

Secondly "do it for the kids" I've covered my kids above, but I really wasn't talking about keeping them away from adult materials, every parent is going to do that. But for instance MLP and avatar ( the last airbender ) are amazing show that most adults would enjoy. You'd be surprised how often a trope fills in for meaningful story. it's actually not about isolating them from sex, but from stereotypical tropes.

A good example of this is the 'gay man is camp' trope it's really prevalent in childrens media, right alongside 'token' and 'smurfette' any, and I mean any of these are a reason for a piece of media to be banned in our household. Now don't interpret this as "no gay/black/women" without the word 'stereotypes' in block caps straight afterwards, and thats beyond the fact these are rarely worth watching in the first place. additionally when you have to insert jokes for adults ( yeah we actually call it the "jokes for adults" trope ) to occupy the adults, it's gone.

I think the in-between is where it gets tricky, like bayonetta , star wars & princess peach. And thats where we need to be focussing our discussion.

Warning, I am a furry. Though I been slowly thinking about getting into drawing some more non-furry stuff like I use to. Also, not a prevalent member of the fandom or the seedier sides of it. I just happen to draw animal people, therefore furry. I'm a weeaboo in general.

On another note, I'm glad you brought up Camp Gay. I don't think it's entirely a bad thing. I only find it offensive when the character falls into the tropes of "Magical Fag" "Non-existent sex-life" -I.E. they have a sex life but never fully explained, or the sort of Camp Gay where they near constantly talk about fashion, shoes, how a girl should work it or any of those other stereotype . . . hmmm, maybe I'm just referring to flamboyant gay man not being a bad thing.

But yeah, I do hate that you get shows where the character is everything but "gay" (As in never stated is or not gay), but their girlish flamboyance is played as comedy. I hate that so much because its totally implied this character is queer but, hey it's funny for a man to act so gay. So terribly offensive.

Bayonetta is such a strange case. Oh, funny thing, Bayonetta is a REALLY girly video game. As much shit the game gets for sexualization, it's a very female centric kind of game. Bayonetta herself isn't even built like what you expect the typical anime bimbo is, her design reminds me of stuff scene in shojo manga like Utena.

 

[Jesterscup]

or the sort of Camp Gay where they near constantly talk about fashion, shoes, how a girl should work it or any of those other stereotype . . . hmmm, maybe I'm just referring to flamboyant gay man not being a bad thing.
But yeah, I do hate that you get shows where the character is everything but "gay" (As in never stated is or not gay), but their girlish flamboyance is played as comedy. I hate that so much because its totally implied this character is queer but, hey it's funny for a man to act so gay. So terribly offensive.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about, I've no problem with a character being flamboyant, last time I checked you don't have to be gay to be flamboyant do you? no it's the stereotyping. Hell I almost constantly talk about shoes & fashion given the chance, and despite being a drag-queen Im never camp, it's just not me. I don't prance very well at all....

Warning, I am a furry. Though I been slowly thinking about getting into drawing some more non-furry stuff like I use to. Also, not a prevalent member of the fandom or the seedier sides of it. I just happen to draw animal people, therefore furry. I'm a weeaboo in general.

oh the Furry thing? Gawd you have no idea! I'm fact it's rather interesting how despised they seem to be, I've got no problems with furries, I've been a cat, a duck , a swan, a butterfly, a pony and a whole bunch of other real and mythological creatures. And yes some of those outfits would make the 'seedier side' of the furry scene seem rather tame ... ( particularly the butterly... )

 

[visiblenoise]

Still, it''s rather insulting the way it's directed. It always feel with a heavy heft of sting. Like damn, what a word, why not something like, "incapable of understanding how women feel" heck "check your privilege" sounds better then "You are a misogynist."

This is the root of my unwillingness to entertain this entire subject seriously. Even some of the feminists who aren't quite batshit insane enough to be immediately written off seem unaware of how serious an accusation 'misogyny' is. The moment an argument lumps me in with a group of "gamers" and then brings in misogyny, I'm alienated already.

 

[grassgremlin]

I will raise a very peculiar question never seemed to be asked in this debate and something brought on by Jim Sterlings videos - Solving the Sexism Situation. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3150-Solving-the-Sexism-Situation

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

I can not relate to a heterosexual man, but I can relate to the concept of sexual persecution and it's prevalence mostly in America.

I am a objectify of men. I draw and write porn based on varieties of my own kinks involving men, sometimes women, but mostly men. I will often consume games, as guilty pleasures where I can play or create the sexiest male character. I often wish that developers could provide me with my carnal needs including having outfits which are gender neutral or show as much skin as humanly possible. The thought of a man wearing a chain male bikini is extremely hot to me, according to the male builds I like. I alternate between big muscular men, lithe feminine men or something in between.

The thought of being labeled things like pervert, being ostracized for my sexual urges tick me off. How dare people tell me I can't like what I like? How dare they tell me when I work on a game or comic I can't put as many under-dressed men making out in my game as I fucking want? I don't make games for children, I make grown adult games with all the sexual objectification my heart desires.

Now equate that to current tastes of how games are now. We have a game like Dead or Alive. One could have a filled day with the objectification. Or how about the big boobed sorceress in Dragon's Crown. It was pretty insulting to be compared to the sexual urges of a 12 year old boy. I compare that to me own in some way. Are my urges the same as a very gay 12 year old boy?

I do not think Anita Sarkeesian wants to take away you want and desires, but I've found that some people are upset that despite fitting the criteria of heterosexual men, they are being persecuted because they just so happen to be sexually attracted to women and there purchasing, while not all the time, I'm sure, can be governed by how much fan service or sexual situations are in a product.

I can attest that I don't play Ash Crimson because he's a cool fighting game character. Oh, no, the mountains of rule 34 I've gone through starring that character can vouch that there were much more involved in my choice. He's still cool to play, just fucking hard.

In a perfect world, everyone would have their cheese cake and eat it too.

I may be wrong, but it's a conclusion I've come to, so let's open a discussion for this debate.

okay first off i am a bisexual transexual furry hardcore gamer am I a misogynist no how can i be a mysogynist if i feel like I am a woman. question 2 the reason people hate discussions on this subject are three fold, in the recent past our hobby has been attacked, this insane lawyer waged a war against us (many of his so called findings, ie the same as anita have already been proven to be false.) we won after a long a weary war we won, then feminism/sjw for some reason decides their poison is required in our hobby. because they must spread their toxic over sensitivity everywhere, everyone must be a special snowflake and at first we didn't notice, we were tired. every now and then we would hear rumblings of some people copying that lawyer, but for the most part all was well our hobby was safe or so we thought. zip through to 2013 anita the liar, scamming, thief, pops up an steals a lot of gullible feminist money to make a poorly researched and ultimately biased videos. the quality of which are so poor and the arguements she makes not only false but show a distinct lack of human decency, you would have to wonder were that 160k went *cough* her pocket*cough*
and thus started the sjw/feminist war against us, you may ask why did they care it's not like they were invested in our hobby our culture, no they just wanted to spread the same sickness they had peddled to tumblr, atheism, movies and tv.
they changed definitions of words to fit their goal, change the meaning of misogynist to mean anyone that disagrees with them so they can shame the people making real arguments, they framed women as weak willed, fragile china dolls who can't think for themselves, saying that the patriarchy (another word they changed the definition of) brainwashed the women who are normal and actually are okay with their sexuality and don't feel oppressed. they use the word objectification the act of which everyone does to everyone at some point in their lives (ie anyone who has a job or employees). they made a false claim that being sexually attracted to women means a man thinks a woman is an object sorry but that is just bullshit not many people want to fuck objects (a minority fetish) and in fact many men care for the women in their lives.
this hobby is about playing games nothing else it is escapism as in not real.

as for the whole you objectify men, no you don't your a woman that is okay with her sexuality and doesn't feel shame from it, and few if any normal person will tell you, you shouldn't do that.
what anita sarkeesian wants to do is get rid of troupes which are integral to all media(that appear in all media regardless and while some are lazy others are main stays because they work)
again with that word objectification, women are not objects just because they are sexualized do men complain that they appear headless in women's media without shirts on, no of course not because they aren't insane enough to force themselves into what is essentially a female dominated place and demand everything be about them or some perceived sexism, and now yes women who play core games exist now (wewt)and just played games okay some of them do complain about lack of representation to other gamers (but they never do anything other than whine about it, instead of you know making the publishers care about them as a market or make the games themselves no that'd be too hard.) as for the dead or alive series meh the main fighting games are okay(though the dead or alive volley ball breast physics are just ridiculous)
as for the sorceress true you don't need massive boobs in fact massive boobs are a turn off mine, but guess what they exist in reality (do yourself a favour don't look for it, you will hate yourself for doing so)and some people get off on monster boobs, but remember one thing it's not real and no one is hurt and anyone who's sane is not going to go to a woman and tell them they need tits like the sorceress that's just stupid. although that is the narrative constantly spun by anita and those like her that we are all horny asshats that don't want proper female characters, trust me unless they are trolling most gamers want female characters as well as male it's the publishers who get in the way.

tl;dr not misogynist (miss used word)
not persecuted
want more female characters (publishers don't want that)
women welcome so long as they come to game and not ***** about games something they don't really care about and have no vested interest in.
objectification a word that means nothing in the context in which it is used.
sexuality in men and women is cool, only feminists hate that.
media has no fucking effect on people as several judges, several studies have ruled on anita fuck off you lying scamming thief. your not welcome here.
zoe quinn can also fuck of for cheating on her husband, and for sleeping around just to get her game through steam and to falsify reviews.
you can like what the fuck you want, so long as you don't force me to conform to what you find sexually appealing and i wont do the same to you.

This one was loaded. Okay, let me try to respond carefully to this.

1) Anita is harmless. Do I agree with her 100%? No. But she is harmless. The donation thing bugs me because not one person who donated to her has complained about where the money as went. Sorry if it's seems one-sided all the hate she gets.

Anita can at times seem poorly executed for me. She made a lot of mistakes in her first vids, but it does seem like she's improving the work. All that matters is she exists. And i'll be happy when we see another feminist with different views from Anita and give the perspective a try. Literally the only effect Anita has is having this discussion which I see no reason why not having it.

Now if you don't want to have the discussion you have the option of avoiding it and buy the games you like.

I'm neutral in all this, I wish she had better execution honestly, but I'll defend her right to do what she does.

2) Whatever you're talking about with feminism effecting TV, Movie or Games negatively, I have not seen this. For real. I haven't seen any place where feminism has lead to anything horrible. If anything we got more diverse shows. Some of my fave shows seem to be deemed as feminist shows, but well . . . I never thought that when I watched them and I love them. Steven Universe comes to example and that might be the newest best thing on cartoon network. I see no problem with this.

As for movies, *Cough* All the Marvel films. Josh Whedon is a feminist who endorses Anita and sorry, but he makes some fucking good films. I never watched buffy, but I'm under the impression that was a huge hit.

You might want to show me these "negative effects" cause I haven't seen any.

3) I'm a guy.

 

[grassgremlin]

or the sort of Camp Gay where they near constantly talk about fashion, shoes, how a girl should work it or any of those other stereotype . . . hmmm, maybe I'm just referring to flamboyant gay man not being a bad thing.
But yeah, I do hate that you get shows where the character is everything but "gay" (As in never stated is or not gay), but their girlish flamboyance is played as comedy. I hate that so much because its totally implied this character is queer but, hey it's funny for a man to act so gay. So terribly offensive.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about, I've no problem with a character being flamboyant, last time I checked you don't have to be gay to be flamboyant do you? no it's the stereotyping. Hell I almost constantly talk about shoes & fashion given the chance, and despite being a drag-queen Im never camp, it's just not me. I don't prance very well at all....

Warning, I am a furry. Though I been slowly thinking about getting into drawing some more non-furry stuff like I use to. Also, not a prevalent member of the fandom or the seedier sides of it. I just happen to draw animal people, therefore furry. I'm a weeaboo in general.

oh the Furry thing? Gawd you have no idea! I'm fact it's rather interesting how despised they seem to be, I've got no problems with furries, I've been a cat, a duck , a swan, a butterfly, a pony and a whole bunch of other real and mythological creatures. And yes some of those outfits would make the 'seedier side' of the furry scene seem rather tame ... ( particularly the butterly... )

I'm curious of that image. Ah, but anyways, you know the internet stigmatizes it cause a few bad apples took the furry thing a bit too far and now the whole group is lumped into it. Alas, the warnings are all I have. I did have a bad experience where I literally said the word furry and a guy just flipped out on me over it. It was overblown and ridiculous.

 

[AkaDad]

persecution, yes. Even if it isn't what people mean the discussion is usually dragged into a hostile field. Where groups are lumped together and accused of some crime or insesitivity even if only part of the group are at fault. If those people would be more clear about that distinction (for example, prefacing a statement with "I'm aware that not all men are mysogonistic swines") and be a little heavier on the solutions rather then the accusations to give the men in question a way to get involved in the debate without either being completely black or completely white, that will probably give a much more constructive debate.

Bottom line, if you don't clearly state that you have, for example, nothing against men and video games in general, people will make those assumpions and you will antagonise people that might otherwise have been on your side.

Gamers have been sexually harassing, verbally abusing, and issuing death threat to gamers and journalists for more than a decade.

Did you just read that and automatically think I was referring to all gamers?

I never used the word "all." I'm clearly talking about those gamers.

I shouldn't have to write a disclaimer every time I say something like that, just because some people struggle with reading comprehension.

 

[minkus_draconus]

And while it's always fun to riff on the sorceresses beach ball boobs, no one seems to point out the fighter's absurdly broad shoulders or the dwarf's biologically anomalous chest.. what is that? a freaking 10-pack? All the characters save two are ridiculously proportioned...in that game based on some trope in fantasy.


I think the problem with all this is people are taking things too seriously. They can't see the joke because they're too busy being offended and hellbent on ruining the joke for other people..

Your comment has made me think. I'm hetero and I really paid no attention to the build/shape of the male characters. Completely never paid any attention to the design.
I noticed the design of the female ones. I found that the sorceress was a turn off which is odd because I enjoy a good amount of bust. I think this is because it too it too far past the point of (for me) ridiculousness.

I think a persons reaction to depictions like the above has to do with not just gender and sexual orientation but also whatever they find erotic.