Misogyny or Sexual Persecution? [Update!]

[Combustion Kevin]

--------------
Back OT : I love the idea of a chainmail bikin, I'd wear one, but the chafing! My nipples hurt just thinking about it.

That's what padding excists for, soldiers from the medieval era wore that all the time under their armour too.
I mean, you just can't go without or you'll skin yourself over the course of two hours, let alone fight a battle.

 

[Rblade]

persecution, yes. Even if it isn't what people mean the discussion is usually dragged into a hostile field. Where groups are lumped together and accused of some crime or insesitivity even if only part of the group are at fault. If those people would be more clear about that distinction (for example, prefacing a statement with "I'm aware that not all men are mysogonistic swines") and be a little heavier on the solutions rather then the accusations to give the men in question a way to get involved in the debate without either being completely black or completely white, that will probably give a much more constructive debate.

Bottom line, if you don't clearly state that you have, for example, nothing against men and video games in general, people will make those assumpions and you will antagonise people that might otherwise have been on your side.

Gamers have been sexually harassing, verbally abusing, and issuing death threat to gamers and journalists for more than a decade.

Did you just read that and automatically think I was referring to all gamers?

I never used the word "all." I'm clearly talking about those gamers.

I shouldn't have to write a disclaimer every time I say something like that, just because some people struggle with reading comprehension.

Yet this is not about what you should be able to do, but what best gets the message to the right people. You should never be afraid to take the high road and make those disclaimers. And as for your sentence, yes, part of me feels like that is at least partially adressed to me, and that is exactly the problem. And we are not talking about forum posts or discussions. We are talking blogs or video's undergoing lots of editing, that has a very particular goal of solving the problem, so why should you not be very carefull about your wording? Assuming everyone will understand the tone of your written language is one of the internets most basic errors. If the choice of tone is nuanced or angry most people will assume the tone is angry.

 

[Jesterscup]

And while it's always fun to riff on the sorceresses beach ball boobs, no one seems to point out the fighter's absurdly broad shoulders or the dwarf's biologically anomalous chest.. what is that? a freaking 10-pack? All the characters save two are ridiculously proportioned...in that game based on some trope in fantasy.


I think the problem with all this is people are taking things too seriously. They can't see the joke because they're too busy being offended and hellbent on ruining the joke for other people..

Your comment has made me think. I'm hetero and I really paid no attention to the build/shape of the male characters. Completely never paid any attention to the design.
I noticed the design of the female ones. I found that the sorceress was a turn off which is odd because I enjoy a good amount of bust. I think this is because it too it too far past the point of (for me) ridiculousness.

I think a persons reaction to depictions like the above has to do with not just gender and sexual orientation but also whatever they find erotic.

Actually Jimquisition has raised this point a few times. yes the portrayal of men in games ( and movies ) is completely skewed, we have an equally unattainable body image thrust upon ourselves ( think how I feel, I can never reach either... twice the dumped on by society!). But typically the men are power fantasies " something we want to be" and typically the women are designed to be something male heterosexual men "want to have"

From my own POV, no and no. I like strong powerful women ( femshep, erin song) and I like my men with a little less braggadocio (the scientist fitz from s.h.i.e.l.d. ). And thats the thing, the male portrayals being power fantasies are natively less offensive than ( and yes I use it) objectification of women.

 

[neokiva]

I will raise a very peculiar question never seemed to be asked in this debate and something brought on by Jim Sterlings videos - Solving the Sexism Situation. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3150-Solving-the-Sexism-Situation

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

I can not relate to a heterosexual man, but I can relate to the concept of sexual persecution and it's prevalence mostly in America.

I am a objectify of men. I draw and write porn based on varieties of my own kinks involving men, sometimes women, but mostly men. I will often consume games, as guilty pleasures where I can play or create the sexiest male character. I often wish that developers could provide me with my carnal needs including having outfits which are gender neutral or show as much skin as humanly possible. The thought of a man wearing a chain male bikini is extremely hot to me, according to the male builds I like. I alternate between big muscular men, lithe feminine men or something in between.

The thought of being labeled things like pervert, being ostracized for my sexual urges tick me off. How dare people tell me I can't like what I like? How dare they tell me when I work on a game or comic I can't put as many under-dressed men making out in my game as I fucking want? I don't make games for children, I make grown adult games with all the sexual objectification my heart desires.

Now equate that to current tastes of how games are now. We have a game like Dead or Alive. One could have a filled day with the objectification. Or how about the big boobed sorceress in Dragon's Crown. It was pretty insulting to be compared to the sexual urges of a 12 year old boy. I compare that to me own in some way. Are my urges the same as a very gay 12 year old boy?

I do not think Anita Sarkeesian wants to take away you want and desires, but I've found that some people are upset that despite fitting the criteria of heterosexual men, they are being persecuted because they just so happen to be sexually attracted to women and there purchasing, while not all the time, I'm sure, can be governed by how much fan service or sexual situations are in a product.

I can attest that I don't play Ash Crimson because he's a cool fighting game character. Oh, no, the mountains of rule 34 I've gone through starring that character can vouch that there were much more involved in my choice. He's still cool to play, just fucking hard.

In a perfect world, everyone would have their cheese cake and eat it too.

I may be wrong, but it's a conclusion I've come to, so let's open a discussion for this debate.

okay first off i am a bisexual transexual furry hardcore gamer am I a misogynist no how can i be a mysogynist if i feel like I am a woman. question 2 the reason people hate discussions on this subject are three fold, in the recent past our hobby has been attacked, this insane lawyer waged a war against us (many of his so called findings, ie the same as anita have already been proven to be false.) we won after a long a weary war we won, then feminism/sjw for some reason decides their poison is required in our hobby. because they must spread their toxic over sensitivity everywhere, everyone must be a special snowflake and at first we didn't notice, we were tired. every now and then we would hear rumblings of some people copying that lawyer, but for the most part all was well our hobby was safe or so we thought. zip through to 2013 anita the liar, scamming, thief, pops up an steals a lot of gullible feminist money to make a poorly researched and ultimately biased videos. the quality of which are so poor and the arguements she makes not only false but show a distinct lack of human decency, you would have to wonder were that 160k went *cough* her pocket*cough*
and thus started the sjw/feminist war against us, you may ask why did they care it's not like they were invested in our hobby our culture, no they just wanted to spread the same sickness they had peddled to tumblr, atheism, movies and tv.
they changed definitions of words to fit their goal, change the meaning of misogynist to mean anyone that disagrees with them so they can shame the people making real arguments, they framed women as weak willed, fragile china dolls who can't think for themselves, saying that the patriarchy (another word they changed the definition of) brainwashed the women who are normal and actually are okay with their sexuality and don't feel oppressed. they use the word objectification the act of which everyone does to everyone at some point in their lives (ie anyone who has a job or employees). they made a false claim that being sexually attracted to women means a man thinks a woman is an object sorry but that is just bullshit not many people want to fuck objects (a minority fetish) and in fact many men care for the women in their lives.
this hobby is about playing games nothing else it is escapism as in not real.

as for the whole you objectify men, no you don't your a woman that is okay with her sexuality and doesn't feel shame from it, and few if any normal person will tell you, you shouldn't do that.
what anita sarkeesian wants to do is get rid of troupes which are integral to all media(that appear in all media regardless and while some are lazy others are main stays because they work)
again with that word objectification, women are not objects just because they are sexualized do men complain that they appear headless in women's media without shirts on, no of course not because they aren't insane enough to force themselves into what is essentially a female dominated place and demand everything be about them or some perceived sexism, and now yes women who play core games exist now (wewt)and just played games okay some of them do complain about lack of representation to other gamers (but they never do anything other than whine about it, instead of you know making the publishers care about them as a market or make the games themselves no that'd be too hard.) as for the dead or alive series meh the main fighting games are okay(though the dead or alive volley ball breast physics are just ridiculous)
as for the sorceress true you don't need massive boobs in fact massive boobs are a turn off mine, but guess what they exist in reality (do yourself a favour don't look for it, you will hate yourself for doing so)and some people get off on monster boobs, but remember one thing it's not real and no one is hurt and anyone who's sane is not going to go to a woman and tell them they need tits like the sorceress that's just stupid. although that is the narrative constantly spun by anita and those like her that we are all horny asshats that don't want proper female characters, trust me unless they are trolling most gamers want female characters as well as male it's the publishers who get in the way.

tl;dr not misogynist (miss used word)
not persecuted
want more female characters (publishers don't want that)
women welcome so long as they come to game and not ***** about games something they don't really care about and have no vested interest in.
objectification a word that means nothing in the context in which it is used.
sexuality in men and women is cool, only feminists hate that.
media has no fucking effect on people as several judges, several studies have ruled on anita fuck off you lying scamming thief. your not welcome here.
zoe quinn can also fuck of for cheating on her husband, and for sleeping around just to get her game through steam and to falsify reviews.
you can like what the fuck you want, so long as you don't force me to conform to what you find sexually appealing and i wont do the same to you.

This one was loaded. Okay, let me try to respond carefully to this.

1) Anita is harmless. Do I agree with her 100%? No. But she is harmless. The donation thing bugs me because not one person who donated to her has complained about where the money as went. Sorry if it's seems one-sided all the hate she gets.

Anita can at times seem poorly executed for me. She made a lot of mistakes in her first vids, but it does seem like she's improving the work. All that matters is she exists. And i'll be happy when we see another feminist with different views from Anita and give the perspective a try. Literally the only effect Anita has is having this discussion which I see no reason why not having it.

Now if you don't want to have the discussion you have the option of avoiding it and buy the games you like.

I'm neutral in all this, I wish she had better execution honestly, but I'll defend her right to do what she does.

2) Whatever you're talking about with feminism effecting TV, Movie or Games negatively, I have not seen this. For real. I haven't seen any place where feminism has lead to anything horrible. If anything we got more diverse shows. Some of my fave shows seem to be deemed as feminist shows, but well . . . I never thought that when I watched them and I love them. Steven Universe comes to example and that might be the newest best thing on cartoon network. I see no problem with this.

As for movies, *Cough* All the Marvel films. Josh Whedon is a feminist who endorses Anita and sorry, but he makes some fucking good films. I never watched buffy, but I'm under the impression that was a huge hit.

You might want to show me these "negative effects" cause I haven't seen any.

3) I'm a guy.

okay i may have exagerated a bit, with the movies and tv (even though the most diverse shows i have come across are mlp fim, adventure time and gravity falls the irony there is mlp fim is written by a feminist and for a lot of things i do agree with her) i am just sick of the oh whoe is me sjw who do nothing but whine about imaginary slights or just get in the way of actual progress, the lies upon lies the working together to scam people. i mean come on i wanted anita to say something new i wanted her to make an intelligent argument she argued hitman absolution hates women i mean come on your penalized for killing innocents in that game, and the video she used had it deducted points when she attacked the strippers as many other let's plays never actually did that and in fact most snuck by them.
as for whedon i have one film to mention cabin in the woods. i wonder what anita would say to all the woman victims in that movie. eh buffy was alright but the later seasons really sucked.as for marvel pfft makes thor a woman XD stars, female super hero black widow, all the women in the xmen movies. this is the internet aristocrat he makes good points about sjw's in general but he has three vids on this whole debacle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3DZQp0StE&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ

as for the whole being a guy well all i had to go by was your icon of zelda and the sexual activity you partook in. honest mistake.

 

[Rahkshi500]

@ Grassgremlin: I can totally agree with the stuff you have to say.

Though like what some people have said earlier, people can be prejudice without knowing that they're being prejudiced, like how some people say that they have no problem with gay people but don't want gay people actually displaying their love and relationships out in public, to give an example.

But yeah, I get your understanding over liking fanservice, the cheesecake/beefcake, and the revealing outfits and whatnot(heck, you should see the fictional settings that I've came up with), and yeah, I don't there's anything wrong with being pandered to every now and then. But the problem is usually that how much there's an overabundance of this stuff in fiction, with very little alternatives, and I think that's why people take issue with it. If there was a lot more variety to choose from, then I don't think it wouldn't be a problem. Of course, even then, there will always be people who will complain about it, because as someone else pointed out, you won't able to please everyone, but I think it would ultimately how you think or feel that it affects you. If there was much more variety to choose from, then I think it would be easier to laugh the complaints off and just enjoy what you enjoy and not let anyone else tell you different.

In the end, I think that's what people want: more variety.

 

[neokiva]

I will raise a very peculiar question never seemed to be asked in this debate and something brought on by Jim Sterlings videos - Solving the Sexism Situation. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/3150-Solving-the-Sexism-Situation

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

I can not relate to a heterosexual man, but I can relate to the concept of sexual persecution and it's prevalence mostly in America.

I am a objectify of men. I draw and write porn based on varieties of my own kinks involving men, sometimes women, but mostly men. I will often consume games, as guilty pleasures where I can play or create the sexiest male character. I often wish that developers could provide me with my carnal needs including having outfits which are gender neutral or show as much skin as humanly possible. The thought of a man wearing a chain male bikini is extremely hot to me, according to the male builds I like. I alternate between big muscular men, lithe feminine men or something in between.

The thought of being labeled things like pervert, being ostracized for my sexual urges tick me off. How dare people tell me I can't like what I like? How dare they tell me when I work on a game or comic I can't put as many under-dressed men making out in my game as I fucking want? I don't make games for children, I make grown adult games with all the sexual objectification my heart desires.

Now equate that to current tastes of how games are now. We have a game like Dead or Alive. One could have a filled day with the objectification. Or how about the big boobed sorceress in Dragon's Crown. It was pretty insulting to be compared to the sexual urges of a 12 year old boy. I compare that to me own in some way. Are my urges the same as a very gay 12 year old boy?

I do not think Anita Sarkeesian wants to take away you want and desires, but I've found that some people are upset that despite fitting the criteria of heterosexual men, they are being persecuted because they just so happen to be sexually attracted to women and there purchasing, while not all the time, I'm sure, can be governed by how much fan service or sexual situations are in a product.

I can attest that I don't play Ash Crimson because he's a cool fighting game character. Oh, no, the mountains of rule 34 I've gone through starring that character can vouch that there were much more involved in my choice. He's still cool to play, just fucking hard.

In a perfect world, everyone would have their cheese cake and eat it too.

I may be wrong, but it's a conclusion I've come to, so let's open a discussion for this debate.

okay first off i am a bisexual transexual furry hardcore gamer am I a misogynist no how can i be a mysogynist if i feel like I am a woman. question 2 the reason people hate discussions on this subject are three fold, in the recent past our hobby has been attacked, this insane lawyer waged a war against us (many of his so called findings, ie the same as anita have already been proven to be false.) we won after a long a weary war we won, then feminism/sjw for some reason decides their poison is required in our hobby. because they must spread their toxic over sensitivity everywhere, everyone must be a special snowflake and at first we didn't notice, we were tired. every now and then we would hear rumblings of some people copying that lawyer, but for the most part all was well our hobby was safe or so we thought. zip through to 2013 anita the liar, scamming, thief, pops up an steals a lot of gullible feminist money to make a poorly researched and ultimately biased videos. the quality of which are so poor and the arguements she makes not only false but show a distinct lack of human decency, you would have to wonder were that 160k went *cough* her pocket*cough*
and thus started the sjw/feminist war against us, you may ask why did they care it's not like they were invested in our hobby our culture, no they just wanted to spread the same sickness they had peddled to tumblr, atheism, movies and tv.
they changed definitions of words to fit their goal, change the meaning of misogynist to mean anyone that disagrees with them so they can shame the people making real arguments, they framed women as weak willed, fragile china dolls who can't think for themselves, saying that the patriarchy (another word they changed the definition of) brainwashed the women who are normal and actually are okay with their sexuality and don't feel oppressed. they use the word objectification the act of which everyone does to everyone at some point in their lives (ie anyone who has a job or employees). they made a false claim that being sexually attracted to women means a man thinks a woman is an object sorry but that is just bullshit not many people want to fuck objects (a minority fetish) and in fact many men care for the women in their lives.
this hobby is about playing games nothing else it is escapism as in not real.

as for the whole you objectify men, no you don't your a woman that is okay with her sexuality and doesn't feel shame from it, and few if any normal person will tell you, you shouldn't do that.
what anita sarkeesian wants to do is get rid of troupes which are integral to all media(that appear in all media regardless and while some are lazy others are main stays because they work)
again with that word objectification, women are not objects just because they are sexualized do men complain that they appear headless in women's media without shirts on, no of course not because they aren't insane enough to force themselves into what is essentially a female dominated place and demand everything be about them or some perceived sexism, and now yes women who play core games exist now (wewt)and just played games okay some of them do complain about lack of representation to other gamers (but they never do anything other than whine about it, instead of you know making the publishers care about them as a market or make the games themselves no that'd be too hard.) as for the dead or alive series meh the main fighting games are okay(though the dead or alive volley ball breast physics are just ridiculous)
as for the sorceress true you don't need massive boobs in fact massive boobs are a turn off mine, but guess what they exist in reality (do yourself a favour don't look for it, you will hate yourself for doing so)and some people get off on monster boobs, but remember one thing it's not real and no one is hurt and anyone who's sane is not going to go to a woman and tell them they need tits like the sorceress that's just stupid. although that is the narrative constantly spun by anita and those like her that we are all horny asshats that don't want proper female characters, trust me unless they are trolling most gamers want female characters as well as male it's the publishers who get in the way.

tl;dr not misogynist (miss used word)
not persecuted
want more female characters (publishers don't want that)
women welcome so long as they come to game and not ***** about games something they don't really care about and have no vested interest in.
objectification a word that means nothing in the context in which it is used.
sexuality in men and women is cool, only feminists hate that.
media has no fucking effect on people as several judges, several studies have ruled on anita fuck off you lying scamming thief. your not welcome here.
zoe quinn can also fuck of for cheating on her husband, and for sleeping around just to get her game through steam and to falsify reviews.
you can like what the fuck you want, so long as you don't force me to conform to what you find sexually appealing and i wont do the same to you.

This one was loaded. Okay, let me try to respond carefully to this.

1) Anita is harmless. Do I agree with her 100%? No. But she is harmless. The donation thing bugs me because not one person who donated to her has complained about where the money as went. Sorry if it's seems one-sided all the hate she gets.

Anita can at times seem poorly executed for me. She made a lot of mistakes in her first vids, but it does seem like she's improving the work. All that matters is she exists. And i'll be happy when we see another feminist with different views from Anita and give the perspective a try. Literally the only effect Anita has is having this discussion which I see no reason why not having it.

Now if you don't want to have the discussion you have the option of avoiding it and buy the games you like.

I'm neutral in all this, I wish she had better execution honestly, but I'll defend her right to do what she does.

2) Whatever you're talking about with feminism effecting TV, Movie or Games negatively, I have not seen this. For real. I haven't seen any place where feminism has lead to anything horrible. If anything we got more diverse shows. Some of my fave shows seem to be deemed as feminist shows, but well . . . I never thought that when I watched them and I love them. Steven Universe comes to example and that might be the newest best thing on cartoon network. I see no problem with this.

As for movies, *Cough* All the Marvel films. Josh Whedon is a feminist who endorses Anita and sorry, but he makes some fucking good films. I never watched buffy, but I'm under the impression that was a huge hit.

You might want to show me these "negative effects" cause I haven't seen any.

3) I'm a guy.

okay i may have exagerated a bit, with the movies and tv (even though the most diverse shows i have come across are mlp fim, adventure time and gravity falls the irony there is mlp fim is written by a feminist and for a lot of things i do agree with her) i am just sick of the oh whoe is me sjw who do nothing but whine about imaginary slights or just get in the way of actual progress, the lies upon lies the working together to scam people. i mean come on i wanted anita to say something new i wanted her to make an intelligent argument she argued hitman absolution hates women i mean come on your penalized for killing innocents in that game, and the video she used had it deducted points when she attacked the strippers as many other let's plays never actually did that and in fact most snuck by them.
as for whedon i have one film to mention cabin in the woods almost forgot serenity and firefly both movie and show depict rape and the murder of women. i wonder what anita would say to all the woman victims in those movies and show. eh buffy was alright but the later seasons really sucked.as for marvel pfft makes thor a woman XD stars, female super hero black widow, all the women in the xmen movies. this is the internet aristocrat he makes good points about sjw's in general but he has three vids on this whole debacle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3DZQp0StE&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ

as for the whole being a guy well all i had to go by was your icon of zelda and the sexual activity you partook in. honest mistake.

 

[AkaDad]

persecution, yes. Even if it isn't what people mean the discussion is usually dragged into a hostile field. Where groups are lumped together and accused of some crime or insesitivity even if only part of the group are at fault. If those people would be more clear about that distinction (for example, prefacing a statement with "I'm aware that not all men are mysogonistic swines") and be a little heavier on the solutions rather then the accusations to give the men in question a way to get involved in the debate without either being completely black or completely white, that will probably give a much more constructive debate.

Bottom line, if you don't clearly state that you have, for example, nothing against men and video games in general, people will make those assumpions and you will antagonise people that might otherwise have been on your side.

Gamers have been sexually harassing, verbally abusing, and issuing death threat to gamers and journalists for more than a decade.

Did you just read that and automatically think I was referring to all gamers?

I never used the word "all." I'm clearly talking about those gamers.

I shouldn't have to write a disclaimer every time I say something like that, just because some people struggle with reading comprehension.

Yet this is not about what you should be able to do, but what best gets the message to the right people. You should never be afraid to take the high road and make those disclaimers. And as for your sentence, yes, part of me feels like that is at least partially adressed to me, and that is exactly the problem. And we are not talking about forum posts or discussions. We are talking blogs or video's undergoing lots of editing, that has a very particular goal of solving the problem, so why should you not be very carefull about your wording? Assuming everyone will understand the tone of your written language is one of the internets most basic errors. If the choice of tone is nuanced or angry most people will assume the tone is angry.

That's the thing, I did carefully word that statement. I didn't insult anyone, I just made a factual statement. Now you're saying that I need to change the way I express myself just to accommodate you. Someone else could then reply and tell me to write in such a way that they believe is proper. It would be impossible to make everyone happy.

 

[grassgremlin]

And while it's always fun to riff on the sorceresses beach ball boobs, no one seems to point out the fighter's absurdly broad shoulders or the dwarf's biologically anomalous chest.. what is that? a freaking 10-pack? All the characters save two are ridiculously proportioned...in that game based on some trope in fantasy.


I think the problem with all this is people are taking things too seriously. They can't see the joke because they're too busy being offended and hellbent on ruining the joke for other people..

Your comment has made me think. I'm hetero and I really paid no attention to the build/shape of the male characters. Completely never paid any attention to the design.
I noticed the design of the female ones. I found that the sorceress was a turn off which is odd because I enjoy a good amount of bust. I think this is because it too it too far past the point of (for me) ridiculousness.

I think a persons reaction to depictions like the above has to do with not just gender and sexual orientation but also whatever they find erotic.

Actually Jimquisition has raised this point a few times. yes the portrayal of men in games ( and movies ) is completely skewed, we have an equally unattainable body image thrust upon ourselves ( think how I feel, I can never reach either... twice the dumped on by society!). But typically the men are power fantasies " something we want to be" and typically the women are designed to be something male heterosexual men "want to have"

From my own POV, no and no. I like strong powerful women ( femshep, erin song) and I like my men with a little less braggadocio (the scientist fitz from s.h.i.e.l.d. ). And thats the thing, the male portrayals being power fantasies are natively less offensive than ( and yes I use it) objectification of women.

I want to add by going of my own experience.
The big muscle bound men are actually a turn off for most people. At least how I would describe it. I'll use my own preferences. The males in dragons crown, the playable ones are not attractive to me. Why? Because, well, the best way to say is, they aren't gay enough. My tastes usually vary, though I been more into feminine men.

The best way to find what people who aren't heterosexual are into is to look at not JUST yaoi manga, but manga geared towards gay men as well. Yaoi manga is actually a poor example of what a lot of females are into. I can attest to that sense I know a few female artists and well, let's just say, their work doesn't refer to "usual" yaoi tropes.

I have to use some examples.
Mildly nsfw images - No Nudity though. Just warning anyways.

From an artist I watch named Mazjojo
when you're referring to muscular characters, this is what actual male sexual objectification looks like
http://mazjojo.deviantart.com/art/Free-Speedo-boys-Makoto-Day-2-438294264
http://mazjojo.deviantart.com/art/Free-Speedo-boys-Rin-Day-7-439362786
http://mazjojo.deviantart.com/art/Free-Speedo-boys-Nagisa-Day-3-438481139

 

[Jesterscup]

[Rant] give it up with the whole Anita - hitman thing, you know she's done a whole series of videos, and thats all you can pick out? In fact Give it up with the whole Anita thing Please![/rant]
look here's one, then you'll have 2 rants about her...
She covers 'woman in fridge' in comics, and in fairness she's only parroting something someone else has done, and it is an issue, but its " ohh look at all these women it happens to, and when it happens to guys they always come back" - I actually made a list ( of mif ) and the number of female characters to actually suffered WIF ( "needless death or depowerment, for the furtherment of a male character" ) was not statistically greater than for male characters, this excluded characters who died through heroic sacrifice, or were repowered, or ( in oracles case ) stayed major players after their event.

Thats not saying it's not a problem in comics, thats not saying there aren't representation issues in comics.


So you've got it out your system, come join the rest of us discussing the really important aspects of sexism in computer games. Thats right chainmail loin clothes & furrys

 

[Sight Unseen]

The reason why I dislike Anita Sarkeesian is because she's no better than a creationist: she's not doing "objective science and research" she jas a pre-defined conclusion and she's cherry-picking data points that support her conclusion. She will completely neglect counter-points even if they reside within that SAME games that she's criticizing.

So Anita gets mentioned once in the OP. and nowhere else as far as I can tell, so afaic this is way off-topic and generally detrimental to the frankly productive and interesting discussion that was being had.

But lets clear one thing up, yes you are right that her methods in many cases, particularly the 'hitman episode' are deeply flawed. Yes you are right that she misrepresented the content of a game. BUT what she is doing is not making a critique of a game. What she IS doing is pointing out tropes which are recognised in other forms of media and showing us that these same issues exist in games. Thing is there are equality issues in games, and endlessly ranting about her doesn't help in finding a solution to that. Sadly in the end it seems she's done more harm than good, but at least we're talking about these issues now.

So where do we go from here, we look at ourselves, our interest, and the industry and the issues and ask ourselves some deep, meaningful questions and try to get somewhere better.

THAT'S why I don't like Anita. Call me a mysogynist scumbag if you want but that would just make you no better than her.

nah, not doing that, I totally understand why you don't like her, my blood boiled too at points. It doesn't invalidate anything that anyone has said in any post on this thread.

--------------
Back OT : I love the idea of a chainmail bikin, I'd wear one, but the chafing! My nipples hurt just thinking about it.

I apologise and admit that I did not read the discussion that occured on this thread prior to my comment. Mostly due to time restraints. I was replying directly to the OP who seemed to be saying that the reasons why people dislike Anita lie either in mysogyny or in sexual persecution and I just came to say that for me ìt`s neither of those and that the reason I dislike her so much lies purely in her claims to academia while simultaneously lying and relying on confirmation bias and poor research as the basis of the majority of her arguments. I apologise if I derailed this discussion as that was not my intent. I will go back and spend more time reading the discussion that took place.

 

[grassgremlin]

The reason why I dislike Anita Sarkeesian is because she's no better than a creationist: she's not doing "objective science and research" she jas a pre-defined conclusion and she's cherry-picking data points that support her conclusion. She will completely neglect counter-points even if they reside within that SAME games that she's criticizing.

So Anita gets mentioned once in the OP. and nowhere else as far as I can tell, so afaic this is way off-topic and generally detrimental to the frankly productive and interesting discussion that was being had.

But lets clear one thing up, yes you are right that her methods in many cases, particularly the 'hitman episode' are deeply flawed. Yes you are right that she misrepresented the content of a game. BUT what she is doing is not making a critique of a game. What she IS doing is pointing out tropes which are recognised in other forms of media and showing us that these same issues exist in games. Thing is there are equality issues in games, and endlessly ranting about her doesn't help in finding a solution to that. Sadly in the end it seems she's done more harm than good, but at least we're talking about these issues now.

So where do we go from here, we look at ourselves, our interest, and the industry and the issues and ask ourselves some deep, meaningful questions and try to get somewhere better.

THAT'S why I don't like Anita. Call me a mysogynist scumbag if you want but that would just make you no better than her.

nah, not doing that, I totally understand why you don't like her, my blood boiled too at points. It doesn't invalidate anything that anyone has said in any post on this thread.

--------------
Back OT : I love the idea of a chainmail bikin, I'd wear one, but the chafing! My nipples hurt just thinking about it.

I apologise and admit that I did not read the discussion that occured on this thread prior to my comment. Mostly due to time restraints. I was replying directly to the OP who seemed to be saying that the reasons why people dislike Anita lie either in mysogyny or in sexual persecution and I just came to say that for me ìt`s neither of those and that the reason I dislike her so much lies purely in her claims to academia while simultaneously lying and relying on confirmation bias and poor research as the basis of the majority of her arguments. I apologise if I derailed this discussion as that was not my intent. I will go back and spend more time reading the discussion that took place.

That's not my intention. But yeah, I prefer the discussion not be focused on her, sense that's not the primary topic of this thread. Thank you.

 

[Trunkage]

Much of the issue with objectification of women come from two current sources.

1. During the initial outbreak of AIDS, it was seen as a "gay disease." At the time, gay was also seen effeminate. This lead to the hypermasculinity of the late 70s/ early 80s. And you had to prove that you weren't gay as well; it was deemed an atrocity by other males to be seen even somewhat gay. You had to focus on the parts of the women that men "should" find interesting. It was still prevalent during the early 2000s. We had a gay friend who still hadn't come out yet. He was the one always pointing which part of which female we should be looking at to make sure he wasn't caught. 99% of the time the rest of us didn't do anything like that (we were late teenage/ early 20s it happened sometimes, but not anywhere near what society expected us.) He also said later, when discussing why he couldn't talk about being gay, that although we didn't "persecute" him specifically (or even being gay), our jokes about being gay made him feel oppressed.

2. Women are still obsessed with how they look. I'm the only male at my work, and I find that everyone else is very obsessed with how they look and if they can find a male to look after them. Like they don't have any other value. It bums me out how females don't realise they aren't help those stereotype that are out there.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Lets apply some basic common sense to sexualizing/objectifying female characters in fictional media:

#1 Does it make money?
#2 Is it legal?
#3 Is it a completely optional purchase?
#4 Is it safe i.e. doesn't cause any direct harm to anyone?

If "yes" is the answer to all 4 of the above, then such tropes/etc will continue being produced for the foreseeable future (#1 being key). And I see nothing wrong with that. I hope most logical people would agree.

Don't get me wrong, criticism has it's place. Go nuts with criticizing and complaining about XYZ game for having "too much" adolescent pandering or titillation. Just know that your criticism will never make such games go away, or even reduce in volume

 

[Jesterscup]

Much of the issue with objectification of women come from two current sources.

1. During the initial outbreak of AIDS, it was seen as a "gay disease." At the time, gay was also seen effeminate. This lead to the hypermasculinity of the late 70s/ early 80s. And you had to prove that you weren't gay as well; it was deemed an atrocity by other males to be seen even somewhat gay. You had to focus on the parts of the women that men "should" find interesting. It was still prevalent during the early 2000s. We had a gay friend who still hadn't come out yet. He was the one always pointing which part of which female we should be looking at to make sure he wasn't caught. 99% of the time the rest of us didn't do anything like that (we were late teenage/ early 20s it happened sometimes, but not anywhere near what society expected us.) He also said later, when discussing why he couldn't talk about being gay, that although we didn't "persecute" him specifically (or even being gay), our jokes about being gay made him feel oppressed.

2. Women are still obsessed with how they look. I'm the only male at my work, and I find that everyone else is very obsessed with how they look and if they can find a male to look after them. Like they don't have any other value. It bums me out how females don't realise they aren't help those stereotype that are out there.

SO let me see the objectification of women is due to gay men in the 70's and 80's and women's own vanity, and not the cultural artefacts left over from thousands of years of oppression?

 

[grassgremlin]

Much of the issue with objectification of women come from two current sources.

1. During the initial outbreak of AIDS, it was seen as a "gay disease." At the time, gay was also seen effeminate. This lead to the hypermasculinity of the late 70s/ early 80s. And you had to prove that you weren't gay as well; it was deemed an atrocity by other males to be seen even somewhat gay. You had to focus on the parts of the women that men "should" find interesting. It was still prevalent during the early 2000s. We had a gay friend who still hadn't come out yet. He was the one always pointing which part of which female we should be looking at to make sure he wasn't caught. 99% of the time the rest of us didn't do anything like that (we were late teenage/ early 20s it happened sometimes, but not anywhere near what society expected us.) He also said later, when discussing why he couldn't talk about being gay, that although we didn't "persecute" him specifically (or even being gay), our jokes about being gay made him feel oppressed.

2. Women are still obsessed with how they look. I'm the only male at my work, and I find that everyone else is very obsessed with how they look and if they can find a male to look after them. Like they don't have any other value. It bums me out how females don't realise they aren't help those stereotype that are out there.

I dunno. The 80s were pretty gay. Not sure about that though, I'd need some source to it or something. I never heard of that story before. I think 70s and 80s were a time when being gay was starting to at least "slowly" become something that was comfortable.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Much of the issue with objectification of women come from two current sources.

1. During the initial outbreak of AIDS, it was seen as a "gay disease." At the time, gay was also seen effeminate. This lead to the hypermasculinity of the late 70s/ early 80s. And you had to prove that you weren't gay as well; it was deemed an atrocity by other males to be seen even somewhat gay. You had to focus on the parts of the women that men "should" find interesting. It was still prevalent during the early 2000s. We had a gay friend who still hadn't come out yet. He was the one always pointing which part of which female we should be looking at to make sure he wasn't caught. 99% of the time the rest of us didn't do anything like that (we were late teenage/ early 20s it happened sometimes, but not anywhere near what society expected us.) He also said later, when discussing why he couldn't talk about being gay, that although we didn't "persecute" him specifically (or even being gay), our jokes about being gay made him feel oppressed.

2. Women are still obsessed with how they look. I'm the only male at my work, and I find that everyone else is very obsessed with how they look and if they can find a male to look after them. Like they don't have any other value. It bums me out how females don't realise they aren't help those stereotype that are out there.

SO let me see the objectification of women is due to gay men in the 70's and 80's and women's own vanity, and not the cultural artefacts left over from thousands of years of oppression?

"Thousands of years of oppression."?
Are serious?

Also, women vanity stems from their biological imperative to find a mate.

Again, not to be That Guy, but to dismiss our basic urges and instincts is to deny science. Just like men have a biological urge to jizz everywhere and fight over stupid crap, women have a biological urge to attract the most suitable mate and have babies.

There are obviously exceptions, but for the majority this holds true.

 

[minkus_draconus]

"Thousands of years of oppression."?
Are serious?

Sure he is. History is full of it. For thousands of years most cultures have placed women as property (of husbands or fathers). In some cultures a woman on her period is "untouchable" lest you get "Cooties (Menstrual Edition)" TM.
That's just a couple examples that still apply today as they did in ages long past.

There is plenty more if you look.

 

[Something Amyss]

Firstly I think most people aren't going to identify as misogynist even if they are..

Kind of a fundamental flaw in this whole thing, yes.

Every time someone pulls up this very literal definition of misogyny (and honestly, dictionary definitions are fine, but they're the starting point, not the end all), I'm reminded of the clip of Klan members, fully robed and hooded that they showed on the Daily Show a couple of months ago who insisted they totes weren't racist and actually took umbrage at the notion. I don't know the original source of the clip, but this is a real thing. Just because you might not label yourself something, even in your frankest moments, doesn't particularly mean anything.

I hate the idea of feeling bad for having my porn or fulfilling my carnal interests. That's shame culture, right there.

So....don't feel bad? FFS, I'm one of those evil feminists people on this website are so scared of ruining the hobby, and I have a sizable porn collection. We just had a thread with teh wimminz and teh feminists defending porn from dudes who called it degrading and whatnot.

 

[Phasmal]

I hate the idea of feeling bad for having my porn or fulfilling my carnal interests. That's shame culture, right there.

So....don't feel bad? FFS, I'm one of those evil feminists people on this website are so scared of ruining the hobby, and I have a sizable porn collection. We just had a thread with teh wimminz and teh feminists defending porn from dudes who called it degrading and whatnot.

Yeah totally this.
I don't care what men find sexy or attractive. I care when I'm expected to have it shoved in my face in a bunch of games. I don't care. Make it more equal, tone it down, add more man-butts, whatever you wanna do.

I have no interest in shaming guys for what they find attractive. I do have an interest in viewing other things, including things I personally find attractive or maybe just other shit.

Oh wow people in this thread debating where `womens vanity` comes from.

Spoiler: Joy