Misogyny or Sexual Persecution? [Update!]

[Guerilla]

The thought of being labeled things like pervert, being ostracized for my sexual urges tick me off. How dare people tell me I can't like what I like? How dare they tell me when I work on a game or comic I can't put as many under-dressed men making out in my game as I fucking want? I don't make games for children, I make grown adult games with all the sexual objectification my heart desires.

And that's pretty much where is all comes to. This kind of criticism comes off to me as an attempt to shame men and their sexuality. Just like I wouldn't give a fuck about a dude in a golden bikini -Princess Leah style limited edition!- people shouldn't give a fuck about chicks with big cleavages especially in a hobby where the main consumers are men. The objection to that looks spiteful for the purpose of being spiteful. It's the same kind of logic religious people use against gay marriage even though it doesn't affect them because supposedly it'll ruin the culture and traditions of the country, the sanctity of marriage and blah blah blah. To me it comes down to that they want to spoil the fun (I wouldn't marriage "fun" but anyway) of gays because they don't like them or don't think they deserve it.

Funny thing is that I never like the big bouncy boobs crap even when I was a teen, it's used many times as a gimmick to distract from the bad quality of a game, but I'll definitely defend their right to exist in whatever quality and quantity creators and gamers want.

 

[PromethianSpark]

I think this thread typifies a misunderstanding that many people seem to have about this whole feminist debate. That is that it is some how centred on sex, or erotica. Not surprising given that sexualization is a buzz concept for feminists. However there is a difference between objectification and sexualization on the one hand, and erotica on the other. As my girl-friend often points out to me, Morrigan from dragon age is not an objectified female character, she is a strong and empowered woman who also happens to be very sexy. (The mention of a girl-friend was only to point out that this is the opinion of a female gamer). The desire to end the sexualization and objectification of women in media is not tantamount to wishing to see an end to sexual content in general. It is about the values that are inscribed or encoded into sexual content. Any time you find content titillating ask yourself: "what am I being encouraged to find sexually arousing and yes, gratifying? Am I being encouraged to seek sexual fulfilment in a way that acknowledges, validates, and respects the other person? Or am I being encouraged to find dis-empowered women that have be reduced to, by way of various structures of inequality, sex toys or wank socks?"

For men this is a question that requires more than just rigorous self-honesty to answer, it requires the introduction of a different perspective. The perspective of a woman.

 

[Agayek]

Any time you find content titillating ask yourself: "what am I being encouraged to find sexually arousing and yes, gratifying? Am I being encouraged to seek sexual fulfilment in a way that acknowledges, validates, and respects the other person? Or am I being encouraged to find dis-empowered women that have be reduced to, by way of various structures of inequality, sex toys or wank socks?"

For men this is a question that requires more than just rigorous self-honesty to answer, it requires the introduction of a different perspective. The perspective of a woman.

And this right here is why there's such a strong negative reaction to people that bring this topic up. A lot of people don't care and don't want to ask themselves anything but "Am I having fun?", and then get upset with people who get overzealous and insist that that isn't good enough.

 

[PromethianSpark]

And this right here is why there's such a strong negative reaction to people that bring this topic up. A lot of people don't care and don't want to ask themselves anything but "Am I having fun?", and then get upset with people who get overzealous and insist that that isn't good enough.

The thing about that argument is that I, and I am sure a great many people, scan over the titles of articles, videos and form posts with out ever feeling the need to consume the content, precisely because we are not interested in it. When we do consume this content, if indeed we weren't interested and did not care about it, we would find little need to add to the discussion. When people seem to actively find such conversations, and have the need to contribute to them, especially in such an enraged way, it seems kind of silly to say that they don't care about it. All they care about is having fun it games. Well guess what, they can go do that, and they will continue to go do that, because games aren't suddenly going to stop being fun because some people are discussing the representation of women in them.

 

[Agayek]

The thing about that argument is that I, and I am sure a great many people, scan over the titles of articles, videos and form posts with out ever feeling the need to consume the content, precisely because we are not interested in it. When we do consume this content, if indeed we weren't interested and did not care about it, we would find little need to add to the discussion. When people seem to actively find such conversations, and have the need to contribute to them, especially in such an enraged way, it seems kind of silly to say that they don't care about it. All they care about is having fun it games. Well guess what, they can go do that, and they will continue to go do that, because games aren't suddenly going to stop being fun because some people are discussing the representation of women in them.

I think you missed what I was trying to say. I didn't mean to say that people don't care about the discussion after its begun (a lot of people care quite a bit about it). When I said "don't care", I meant "don't care about the wider political or philosophical point". Most people simply don't care about institutionalized sexism or racism or things like that, often even if it directly effects them (not to a degree to act on it anyway). It's accepted as part of life and they simply don't have strong feelings on it one way or the other. That's why social activism is important, because that's the catalyst that drives people to recognize the wrongs they've always accepted and seek to change them.

The thing is though, unless you can firmly convince people that the institution is actually a problem, they're not going to like the activist for it. It's an intrusion into their comfort zone, and most people aren't fans of that. In the particular case of games, for a lot of people, the incessant need to politicize games and make sure they're sending 'the right message' rubs them the wrong way. They simply don't see an issue with the supposed institutionalized sexism, for much the same reason as they didn't see an issue with the supposed institutionalized violence Thompson used to blather on about. They simply enjoy games as they are, and they don't want to be constantly told they're doing it wrong because they sit down and have fun with a game without considering if Zelda's skirt is 6" too short, or if Mario really needs to rescue Peach again, or whatever.

TLDR: People are apathetic to social issues, and berating them for it earns neither supporters nor good will.

 

[Rahkshi500]

I think this thread typifies a misunderstanding that many people seem to have about this whole feminist debate. That is that it is some how centred on sex, or erotica. Not surprising given that sexualization is a buzz concept for feminists. However there is a difference between objectification and sexualization on the one hand, and erotica on the other. As my girl-friend often points out to me, Morrigan from dragon age is not an objectified female character, she is a strong and empowered woman who also happens to be very sexy. (The mention of a girl-friend was only to point out that this is the opinion of a female gamer). The desire to end the sexualization and objectification of women in media is not tantamount to wishing to see an end to sexual content in general. It is about the values that are inscribed or encoded into sexual content. Any time you find content titillating ask yourself: "what am I being encouraged to find sexually arousing and yes, gratifying? Am I being encouraged to seek sexual fulfilment in a way that acknowledges, validates, and respects the other person? Or am I being encouraged to find dis-empowered women that have be reduced to, by way of various structures of inequality, sex toys or wank socks?"

For men this is a question that requires more than just rigorous self-honesty to answer, it requires the introduction of a different perspective. The perspective of a woman.

Except that none of that gives any respect or consideration to real-life people's actual desires and interests. Sexuality and sexual content is not as cut n dry as many people make it out to be, and half of the time it's does not even involve actual sex, so efforts in trying to reduce any and all sexual content down to the same intimate vanilla route, which by this time, has become boring by now. Feminists have been trying to encourage women to explore their sexuality however they wish, including being able to find sexual fulfillment just for themselves. The same kind of thing has to also extend to men. So no, not all sexual content has to be about intimacy, nor it should always have to be, and trying to mold other people's desires and interests into something that you find acceptable is not validating and respecting those real-life people. If there's any value that can be found in sexual content today, is that it accepts and validates the desires of real-life people who do have those interests, telling that it's okay to fantasize about this or that, that they're not evil or destructive or will destroy civilization, etc. and etc.

The irony of the perspective of women is that many women's perspectives can surprisingly be found along the same perspectives as men in relation to interests and desires.

 

[Silvanus]

See, I generally just have a problem with the existence of "vast" amounts of titillation being referred to as a "problem" in the first place.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeting a product toward a specific demographic. I don't, after all, go into a shoujo manga expecting it to be tailored to my "needs." The "problem" some vocal people seem to have is with the existence of games like, say, Senran Kagura: Burst, when it clearly wasn't made with them in mind.

The argument is about trends, not individual games. Individual games should only be used to illustrate a trend.

Shojo Manga is tailored specifically to a relatively narrow age-group. Games, on the other hand, are an entire medium, rather than a sub-set (as Shojo Manga is)-- a better parallel would be manga as a medium, and manga exists for a very wide variety of people. There's manga for men, women, adults, children, gay, straight...

We would be severely limiting the potential of games if we drew a line around the demographic games are tailored towards, and excluded others. If we had done the same with films or books, art would have suffered.

By the same token, I'm of the mind that titles with a healthy mix to their demographic should pander to as many preferences as are within said demographic.

With that said, the only real problem I can see is a lack of product being targeted toward specific demographics, which would certainly be a better status quo and, in turn, get more of the womenz involved in the hobby.

...Really though. I want more women in gaming. It'd certainly help my dating prospects...just, you know, leave my titty games alone and I'll happily root for your ladyboy titles.

Please note, I don't want to take away from the games that are being made; I want more made, for the under-represented groups, to create a more well-rounded medium. I don't want to take away- only to add, to redress the imbalance. I should have clarified that.

 

[generals3]

We would be severely limiting the potential of games if we drew a line around the demographic games are tailored towards, and excluded others. If we had done the same with films or books, art would have suffered.

But are we doing that? Let's not forget the vast majority of the complaining regarding this subject loves to ignore almost all the industry's segments. If you look at the industry as a whole you have a huge range of games for almost anyone. Some people just get mad that some specific type of games tend to be mainly targeted towards other groups than them.

 

[Silvanus]

But are we doing that? Let's not forget the vast majority of the complaining regarding this subject loves to ignore almost all the industry's segments. If you look at the industry as a whole you have a huge range of games for almost anyone. Some people just get mad that some specific type of games tend to be mainly targeted towards other groups than them.

Can you think of, say, three games with gay protagonists? I can't think of a single one. There also seem to be about twenty games with male protagonists to every one that has a female protagonist, at least.

 

[Frission]

But are we doing that? Let's not forget the vast majority of the complaining regarding this subject loves to ignore almost all the industry's segments. If you look at the industry as a whole you have a huge range of games for almost anyone. Some people just get mad that some specific type of games tend to be mainly targeted towards other groups than them.

Can you think of, say, three games with gay protagonists? I can't think of a single one. There also seem to be about twenty games with male protagonists to every one that has a female protagonist, at least.

Does bisexual count? I'm sure there's also some games on the independent scene which has a rather diverse caste of characters and women tend to dominate as main characters in adventure games (think of the style like Myst). I've also heard that the east asian market has a wider variety of games, like the Manga you're talking about. The problem is that they're rarely if ever ported, since they're mainly created by smaller studios instead of big ones.

I'm not trying to dismiss the criticism in any way. I think it would be more apt to say that a lot of triple A games don't feature diversity (with some exceptions). I always though that the independent crowd would be better at producing more diverse games and by their success show the bigger developers that there isn't a risk in making a protagonist that's out of the norm.

Of course with the corruption scandal that's going up I don't even trust indie developers anymore, so there goes that idea. Anyway my two cents before I disappear from this whole fiasco again.

 

[Jack Action]

Can you think of, say, three games with gay protagonists? I can't think of a single one. There also seem to be about twenty games with male protagonists to every one that has a female protagonist, at least.

Legacy of Kain (granted, he may be bisexual, if Blood Omen 2's anything to go by), Mass Effect/FONV/Dragon Age (optional, so let's say they count for a third of a game each), and My Ex-Boyfriend the Space Tyrant.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

But are we doing that? Let's not forget the vast majority of the complaining regarding this subject loves to ignore almost all the industry's segments. If you look at the industry as a whole you have a huge range of games for almost anyone. Some people just get mad that some specific type of games tend to be mainly targeted towards other groups than them.

Can you think of, say, three games with gay protagonists? I can't think of a single one. There also seem to be about twenty games with male protagonists to every one that has a female protagonist, at least.

Are you including games where you can make the choice to be gay?

Or should the game force you to be gay because of the story?

Or do you mean games where the MC is gay just because?

 

[carnex]

In Fallout 2 and I think New Vegas you can be gay. It's a choice not the default seting. In Fallout 2 you can be forced into homosexual marriage to!

There are also homosexual characters in RPGs. Not main characters mind you, just controllable characters. There is one female and one implied male in Valkyria Chronicles for example.

 

[Silvanus]

Legacy of Kain (granted, he may be bisexual, if Blood Omen 2's anything to go by), Mass Effect/FONV/Dragon Age (optional, so let's say they count for a third of a game each), and My Ex-Boyfriend the Space Tyrant.

As far as I can tell, with Legacy of Kain, it is just that some people took that vibe. The only actual, unarguable relationship is between a male and female. Games with optional sexualities don't reeeaaaally count for what I'm saying-- it's a great approach, but it doesn't counter the preponderance of protagonists written to be straight.

MEBTST is a legit choice. It is, of course, a small indie title.

Are you including games where you can make the choice to be gay?

Or should the game force you to be gay because of the story?

Or do you mean games where the MC is gay just because?

1) No. They represent a pretty good approach, IMO, but my point regards the dominance of characters written to be straight.

2) "Force" is a rather bizarre choice of word. Does Dead Space "force" you to be straight? I find it difficult to imagine people would describe it in that fashion.

3) I don't know what you mean by "just because"-- do you mean in cases when it's incidental to the story? I'm counting any examples in which the written protagonist is a gay person. Whether it's central to the plot, or whether it is just there for incidental characterisation, either way. There are multitudes of straight romances that fulfil either category.

Does bisexual count? I'm sure there's also some games on the independent scene which has a rather diverse caste of characters and women tend to dominate as main characters in adventure games (think of the style like Myst). I've also heard that the east asian market has a wider variety of games, like the Manga you're talking about. The problem is that they're rarely if ever ported, since they're mainly created by smaller studios instead of big ones.

I'm not trying to dismiss the criticism in any way. I think it would be more apt to say that a lot of triple A games don't feature diversity (with some exceptions). I always though that the independent crowd would be better at producing more diverse games and by their success show the bigger developers that there isn't a risk in making a protagonist that's out of the norm.

Of course with the corruption scandal that's going up I don't even trust indie developers anymore, so there goes that idea. Anyway my two cents before I disappear from this whole fiasco again.

That'd be a really interesting thing to know, actually; if more of these titles exist, but don't get ported. Perhaps my point should have been better targeted towards the non-indie scene. Still, I've legitimately looked for these games-- I would enjoy them, were they done well-- and have come away frustrated.

 

[Jack Action]

As far as I can tell, with Legacy of Kain, it is just that some people took that vibe. The only actual, unarguable relationship is between a male and female. Games with optional sexualities don't reeeaaaally count for what I'm saying-- it's a great approach, but it doesn't counter the preponderance of protagonists written to be straight.

MEBTST is a legit choice. It is, of course, a small indie title.

It's really hard not to get that vibe, and I'm not just saying this because Kain wears leather pants and has rippling muscles.

That said, I don't remember any relationship with a female, unless you mean Nupraptor/Ariel, but neither of those are protagonists.

The closest thing to a relationship I remember was the thing I mentioned in BO2, and that was less a relationship and more a "there may have been something at some point if you hadn't tried to stab me in the back".

 

[Agayek]

As far as I can tell, with Legacy of Kain, it is just that some people took that vibe. The only actual, unarguable relationship is between a male and female. Games with optional sexualities don't reeeaaaally count for what I'm saying-- it's a great approach, but it doesn't counter the preponderance of protagonists written to be straight.

MEBTST is a legit choice. It is, of course, a small indie title.

There's also Persona 4, just throwing that out there.

 

[Silvanus]

It's really hard not to get that vibe, and I'm not just saying this because Kain wears leather pants and has rippling muscles.

That said, I don't remember any relationship with a female, unless you mean Nupraptor/Ariel, but neither of those are protagonists.

The closest thing to a relationship I remember was the thing I mentioned in BO2, and that was less a relationship and more a "there may have been something at some point if you hadn't tried to stab me in the back".

I haven't played it, myself. I asked my roommate, who had, and who said there might have been something kind of hinted a bit. I searched online, and mostly found people saying they didn't get that vibe, and nothing explicit.

There's also Persona 4, just throwing that out there.

This is quite arguable [http://www.gamespot.com/articles/denial-of-the-self-queer-characters-in-persona-4/1100-6404712/]. Kanji never explicitly expresses interest in another man, but he does in Naoto, even after knowing she's female. Again, I haven't played Persona 4, but the above article says it is his "shadow" that expresses an attraction to men, and that Kanji doesn't take away from the experience that he's gay.

Also, is he actually a protagonist? From what I'm reading, he seems a major character, but not the protagonist.

 

[Jack Action]

I haven't played it, myself. I asked my roommate, who had, and who said there might have been something kind of hinted a bit. I searched online, and mostly found people saying they didn't get that vibe, and nothing explicit.

Okay, yeah, I may be reading too much into it. Possibly because I don't see physical contact as merely friendly, and Raziel "dies" caressing Kain's chest. While the normally sarcastic and stoic Kain gets as close as he physically can to crying, or showing any emotion that isn't contempt.

I do see your point though.

 

[grassgremlin]

And this right here is why there's such a strong negative reaction to people that bring this topic up. A lot of people don't care and don't want to ask themselves anything but "Am I having fun?", and then get upset with people who get overzealous and insist that that isn't good enough.

The thing about that argument is that I, and I am sure a great many people, scan over the titles of articles, videos and form posts with out ever feeling the need to consume the content, precisely because we are not interested in it. When we do consume this content, if indeed we weren't interested and did not care about it, we would find little need to add to the discussion. When people seem to actively find such conversations, and have the need to contribute to them, especially in such an enraged way, it seems kind of silly to say that they don't care about it. All they care about is having fun it games. Well guess what, they can go do that, and they will continue to go do that, because games aren't suddenly going to stop being fun because some people are discussing the representation of women in them.

I couldn't word it better myself. This always bugs me so much that people often come to me like, "Who cares?"
Why bother contributing to the discussion if you don't care?
If an article, thread or video is ruining your hobby don't watch it.

 

[angryscotsman93]

It just leads back to Salman Rushdie's saying "What is freedom of expression without the freedom to offend? It is lost."

I have to say, I'm not really sure why you quoted me, and for the most part I actually agree with you.

That being said, let me share a slightly different point of view. I've got a board gaming family, we play catan, archigelago, blueprints, magewars and many many more games. One game we don't play is munchkin, not because it's not very good, or the game mechanics suck, because the humour and sillyness makes up for it. NO we don't play it for the art. We don't play it because I've an 8yr old Daughter, and frankly we vet a lot of our media ( actually all of it ), for messages and subtexts. In munchkins case all the women are highly sexualised, busty & underdressed. Now I don't want that game banned, I'm not going to moan to/about the artist, I celebrate his right to create art like that. But it saddens me that I've one less game to play with the family because of said art. The same is done for children's media, where tropes and stereotypes are also all pervasive, that which is not suitable is simply not allowed.

Now yes you can say thats censorship, and perhaps it is. But before you do, what is being asked is "is this suitable for this person who I have a legal and ethical duty over. Am I doing my best at raising a healthy balanced individual", and also if I cannot censor that what right have I to censor other materials thats not suitable?

Well, see, this is an entirely valid response to this sort of thing. You'd like to play Munchkin with your family, but you find some of the artwork to be inappropriate for your daughter, so you don't play it. That's understandable, and it sure as hell ain't censorship- that's just responsible parenting. I've got no issue with that. My issue, if there was one, would be with a hypothetical individual who would claim that the game is sexist because of those images (which, as we all know, are primarily there to parody the kind of art that you usually find in an RPG's books), and that therefore the game is bad. That's sort of irritating, which is why I'm thankful that I've never seen it happen.

The argument could be made that, as unfortunate as it is that you can't play the game with your daughter, the game wasn't made with your daughter's age group in mind as a target audience, so, sorry. If they'd tried to fit in as many demographics as possible, they might run the risk of making the game kinda bland. I'm not saying this in a "boo hoo, cry more jerk" kind of way, I'm just offering that as an explanation. Once again, you're well within your rights as a parent to say "no, this game's not quite right for my kids," and since you're not going to other people and telling them that their game is bad and they should feel bad, I have no quarrel with you whatsoever.