MMOs Need More Bastards

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Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Well, I think the problem that you (the article writer) are missing is that online gaming has yet to move much past it's infancy in any absolute sense. Right now game developers want a game that they can just leave to run on it's own and make money for it's publishers with little in the way of direct control on the part of the administrators.

The problem with games like early UO is that you were dealing with what many would consider "griefing", which is people setting out for little purpose other than to exploit the system to make other players miserable. Realistically there was no lasting repercussions as evil death was just an inconveinence and a skill point dock, and no viable motivation "in character" to the world for a lot of what was done other than the knowlege that some player on the other side of a character was going to become irritated by what you did.

Add to this the issue of balancing good vs. evil. See in an MMO enviroment that is just left to run itself, evil is very easy to reward... you wind up with more stuff, the satisfaction of killing people and the furstration of players. Good on the other hand winds up presenting very little in the way of tangible rewards, in a game enviroment largely governed by loot, stats, and other things it's not like most other players care much because they are more concerned about whether you can afford the stuff they are selling, or their own self sufficiecy than what kind of play enviroment you might be fostering. What's more when the bad guys wind up with more and better stuff, and thus higher stats, the only way to really keep up to even conceive of stopping them is to become a huge bastard yourself... and then usually you wind up just becoming another rat yourself, irregardless of whatever your intentions might have been to begin with. Useless NPCs telling you what a great guy you are don't really provide much in the way of a reward.

What's more when your dealing with heroic fantasy, as opposed to something trying to be dark and realistic, that's a paticular issue. One of the things that slotted players of Ultima off is that the game series has always been about morality and the triumph of good over evil and the benefits of following the virtues even if only one very specific person became the incarnation of them all. In that world a guy dedicated to virtues like Compassion, Sacrifice, Honor, or others should wind up trumping someone who sets out to be a complete bastard in the long term... especially in THAT world. The guys complaining were not just victims but fans of the Ultima games (play them sometime, especially starting with IV, GoG has them, they were more recent at the time this game came out).

This all brings me to the initial point, to REALLY advance MMOs as a genere you don't just need players acting freely to advance the RPG and free form aspects, but you need an administration that constanly interacts directly with the player base, and is capable of subjectively interpeting what people are doing. GMs who are capable of looking at people being bastards and taking reasonable action on part of the world, or rewarding righteous
play for those being good guys.

The big problem with this of course is that most companies running MMOS don't want to actually pay a staff to run the game. What's more the people they hire are more akin to coders or customer service reps than actual Gamemasters (which is what we need), guys who both hold a certain degree of detachment from the players, as well as being trained to think dealing with them in any meaningful fashion isn't part of their job. If your lucky some GM might drop a few extra monsters on a town and call it event in most MMOs, and really that isn't what building a real world like this takes.

I believe it was Larry Niven's "Dreampark" novels that chronicled the evolution of games of this sort (ending up with VR, as they existed in the actual story) and has so far come pretty close, though we have sort of stagnated. Those stories outside of the central mysteries driving them kind of explained what you need to make a virtual enviroment work, and that involves an active administration running the game itself, as well as "Loremasters" who are players with similar authority (either known or covert) acting to cultivate the game enviroment. Many players of course fear the idea of other humans having direct control over thegame this way, but at the same time no code, no matter how advanced, is going to be able to maintain a proper fantasy play enviroment.

To be honest I kind of suggested something similar between actual GMS and the Loremasters of Dreampark early on in UO, based on what some MUDs wound up doing by empowering players, of course the idea was never really embraced, and we see what they chose to do instead... for good or ill.
 

jthm419

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Aug 8, 2011
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Shadowbane. Was part of a small Guild for a while. Helped build up a town, was on every day farming for gold and items to sell, while the Guild Master set all the buildings to make items for his liking, ect. Suddenly we were targeted for demolition, and after us peons defending the town for a day... the Guild Master wouldn't help protect the town. A girl and I hunted him down, hiding by a wall at a deserted allied city, disbanded from our guild and killed him and went over to the guild that was attacking and we stomped a mud hole into the rest of the guild we abandoned for their weakness.

p.s. I was also that bastard that typed "Vas Flam" above my head and went into attack mode acting like I was going to attack you, and got you to attack me near a guard so I could loot you.
 

GrrWolfie

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Aug 29, 2008
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Here here! Can't get enough of these articles, feels like i've been tidal waved by fail MMOs ever since UO and developers just don't see it.
 

loc978

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Sep 18, 2010
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Honestly, I love the idea of such a world, but unfortunately your average MMO these days has a stat system that makes it impossible for a player five or more levels under another to even damage said player, much less survive a few blows.
I'm all for granting free will on a playerbase in a game where the bastards actually run the risk of losing, which, in current MMOs, they simply don't.

ie. more levels should not equal more hitpoints. The highest level players should possess more skills, more guile, better equipment... but the same health points as everyone else. As the Star Wars D20 GM guide says, "A blaster to the face is still a blaster to the face".
 

therealjeffa

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Nov 15, 2010
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Cannorn said:
It took a while for me heart beat to slow and the adrenaline high to wear of and to this day no game has ever come close to that experience, and it was down to the fact that there was no saftey net, no rules, no GM, I was at the mercy of another player who simply wanted to kill me, not neccesarily for profit as I may have had nothing, but just on the off chance and for the lols because he could.
I respectfully submit that this person you describe clearly wanted to interact with other players in ways beyond griefing them "for the lols because he could".
 

FaceFaceFace

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Nov 18, 2009
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Free will isn't inherently good. Just like life would suck if everyone could do whatever they wanted irl, games where anyone can do whatever they want are just annoying. Of course, I don't play MMOs at all (I don't understand the point of playing a game with no ending where you do the same stuff over and over to help you continue do the same stuff over and over), so that might color my opinion.

Why are you robbing people? Because I can use money to make myself more powerful. Why do you want to be more powerful? So I can be better at robbing people! Or alternatively, however else one makes money in Ultima to become more powerful so you can survive travelling between villages, so you can make more money in a new place. To me, it seems to be exactly the same as the whole "Raid dungeons to get better gear to help raid dungeons" thing in modern MMOs. They seem equally unfulfilling and meaningless. The whole fake society thing is silly because unlike real society which we're stuck with, there's no reason to be there.
 

W3rK

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Sep 2, 2009
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I'm just going to mention a certain game for the Author of the article; the game is Wurm Online.

For little more detail - read on.

It not only has an extensive crafting system, with which you can create anything ranging from awls, barrels and carpets to rings, ships and two-handed swords, but also features structure building and terra-forming. And farming. And mining. And animal breeding. And so on.

On top of that, you can decide to leave a non-PvP islands to become part of one of the three kingdoms warring over land known as Wild - and probably experience again what the Author seems to miss the most from the modern-day MMOs.

There are certain downsides to the game however - it's really time intensive, takes a while to get used to and to become good at certain skills you might have to invest weeks of your time. While also it is slightly lacking in the graphics department (although mostly in the creatures and player avatars part, the landscapes are just breathtaking at times), it is still being actively developed and model quality and gameplay improvements are rolling in steadily.

On the other hand a new gameplay model, called Epic, is coming to it, which is again a PvP faction war with added twist of involvement from the Gods - that is players' actions are supposed to influence global events, such as small godly boons to cataclysmic events the likes of volcano eruptions.

I've been pretty much playing it for nearly two years now, and while the player base is on the small side, it is still a pretty lively place to be.

So, there. I hope I piqued the Author's interest (or anyone else for that matter), if so I suggest heading over to http://www.wurmonline.com/ and checking it out (the game is free to play on the non-PvP server with a limit cap on the skills).

PS: Also, funny fact, it was co-authored and developed by Notch, before he decided to try make his blocky game about terraforming, building and mining... hmm...
 

ThunderCavalier

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Nov 21, 2009
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It sounds like a neat concept, but while it's certainly innovative, it fails to account for a vast demographic of players. By catering to one audience, you've completely isolated and ostracized another one, which is bad as a game designer (imo, but of course some people have tastes they want to fulfill and thus I respect them for that) and as a product (which holds more weight in a competitive market).

If they had servers like that for people to be on, that's perfectly fine, but an entire MMO dedicated to something like that? You're definitely not going to get a unanimous "Yes" on the project.
 

Yokai

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Oct 31, 2008
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This is what pretty much all modern MMOs are missing: player-controlled societies. The modus operandi for MMO development is still "Make it like WoW but with X number of new features" when it should be focusing on allowing players absolute freedom. There's no point in having five thousand players in the same game world if they're all just adventurers.

I want an MMO where there are little to no NPCs, and instead it is the players who are the merchants and guard captains and kings. I want a persistent world where things actually change--a country is conquered and stays that way until the original owners take it back. The circumstances of warfare and diplomacy between player-controlled kingdoms would provide more than enough content without ever going on a scripted quest.

Only when we start seeing this sort of things will MMOs be living up to their full potential. In the meantime all we have is an incredibly "gamey" game that doesn't feel at all like an actual world, where players are defined by their limitations rather than any actual unique achievement.
 

Eiv

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Oct 17, 2008
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I think someone didn't vote for lord British because maybe they are Lord British :)
 

Smokej

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Nov 22, 2010
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didn't know that UO had so many <10 years old during it's Golden Age, if you take the profile age of some of the "veterans" posting here seriously...

Nevertheless casual style mmo's have prevailed which makes sense since playing style has changed alongside with the demographics of the consumerbase. Ingame ganking and griefing were always fun if you were one of 1% of the server population who were ahead of the cattle to pull it off and still being untouchable in terms of sanctions of the community. You can make more money with making the game more appealing to the 99%...

Real PVP is a relict now, patched to its death in nearly all relevant games over time or non exististent in newer games. On the otherhand it's saves the people who cared for it alot of free time.
 

KillerRabbit

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Jan 3, 2009
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Where it not for Trammel, I would still be playing this game today.. and I started January -98 I think if I remember right... glorious good old days! Sadly, I think we will never see its like any more.
 

Mike Kayatta

Minister of Secrets
Aug 2, 2011
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Leviano said:
I think someone didn't vote for lord British because maybe they are Lord British :)
Damn, I've been found out! Also, please buy my house [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/113716-Richard-Garriotts-Crazy-Awesome-Mansion-Up-For-Sale]
 

tharglet

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Jul 21, 2010
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I feel in the minority here, being someone who much prefers PvE play.

Usually PvP in PvP-based MMOs tends to turn out terrible for me, because of the classes I like to play (tanks tend to be a PvE spec) and because I tend to join at least a few months after a game is released. Also doesn't help that I don't have any gaming friends in RL, so it's hard to integrate into a group as I have no instant-community to rely on.

If you risk losing everything, then it's usually a pretty big risk for lowbies, as you lose a whole bunch of time and are back at square one. Yes, if a higher level player dies it's more time lost, but is a lot less likely to happen.

If killing the same person over and over had negative consequences (or initiated a "time out" between the two players), or allowed the ganked player port to somewhere that the other player can't get to quickly, then it'd work better.

For me, I find it really rather annoying to get into a consta-ganked situation and I have set playtimes as it is, so having someone reduce that playtime is no fun at all. I like being able to decide if I'm going to be a crafter or a fighter on a whim that PvE games give you. I don't like having something forced upon me either by being too weak or unlucky.

I think there could be far more work into making PvE more interesting and not riskless. One of the reasons I left WoW is because it was too much steamroll and not enough threat. If you died it was usually because the mobs were being cheap, not an epic battle between you and mob. Or you jumped off a cliff.
Do remember in the later stages levelling a pally, going against a red lvlled mob... was a massive struggle, but won in the end lol. Felt a sense of accomplishment for completing a quest I could obtain but wasn't really intended for my level.
 

mcattack92

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Feb 2, 2011
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Play Dark Orbit and Battlestar Galactica Online. They allow PVP in 'noob' zones. Players that have the best ships and weapons jump and just fuck everyone up.
 

matrix guardian

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Feb 6, 2010
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Mike Kayatta said:
Thanks! Originally, I really wanted to mention the Galaxies thing (though I didn't have room for it) because it's such a great example of how developers listen to all the wrong people when making changes. I think the point was proven the second that game lost most of its player base after its "reworking." The whining vocal minority is such a pain in the ass. I think devs should start prioritizing complaints by level and/or time with game. Not ignoring the newbies, mind you, just listening more to the vets who have been spending subscription money for months and months...you know, the actual reason the game became a success to begin with.
Another way that they could do it to keep the "whining vocal minority" from calling the shots is, to take a poll or a vote, whenever they have a proposed "reworking" or major change in how the game plays out. All it would take is sending a message to each player, "We are thinking of making changes X and Y to the game. Would you like the game more or less if we made those changes?" They could even make it as simple as marking a checkbox with their vote. Then everyone who subscribes to and pays for the game would have a say in what their game is like.
 

Combustion Kevin

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Nov 17, 2011
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what if you made griefing actually dangerous or undesirable?

what if killing your fellow players outside the designated battlefield or warzone puts a bounty on your head in the local cities that players will try to collect.
if you take it further the city guards may actively try to take you down?
mercenaries unwilling to take orders from you out of fear for their livelyhood.

the only place you could buy or sell wares is that lonesome fisherman that lives detached from society and that raggedy old witch that curses your testicles for nothing else but a giggle.

the point to this is that you may be anonymous to other players, but the world never forgets, and if you choose to be a bastard, you better make sure you will never get caught.
 

Skyy High

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Dec 6, 2009
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Oh please.

Here's a TL;DR of your article: "Sandbox games rock, themepark games suck."

Here's a TL;DR of my response: "We know it's a themepark, that's not a bad thing, stop treating that label like a curse word."

Both game types have their audiences, it just so happens that the potential audience for a themepark game is, according to every scrap of data we currently have, far higher than that for a sandbox game. People are not "fooled" into thinking that the games they currently play are true sandboxes; they know that they don't have full control over their world. Guess what, that's not what they're looking for! They're looking for a well-paced adventure, for definite challenges that they can overcome, for defined goals, a sense of progression, and an environment that is only as stressful as you want it to be. In short, they want well-crafted single-player RPG experiences that are delivered over hundreds or thousands of hours, in the presence of millions of other players. This quote here:
What complaints such as these fail to account for is that much of the fun in gaming comes from the conflict and risk that naturally grows from perilous game worlds. What are you truly achieving if you're kept perpetually safe, slowly gaining material items while playing through what can only be honestly defined as a consequence-free environment? At that point, you may as well be playing FarmVille.
shows an absolutely stunning blindness to where "fun in gaming" comes from, at least for other people. Fun, for YOU, comes from organically grown conflict and risk. I, on the other hand, am not building a sandcastle on the beach because I want someone to come and kick it down, I'm building a sandcastle because I want to build a bloody sandcastle. The risk of someone kicking it down is not only nonessential to my fun, it's actually detrimental to it.

You say that the player may as well be playing FarmVille. There's a kernel of truth there, surrounded by a thick shell of stupidity. Let's tackle the shell before we get to the kernel. Obviously, playing an MMO is different from playing FarmVille, even if you are (mostly) guaranteed to win at some point (and there are plenty of MMOs where you are not guaranteed to succeed at all challenges, no matter how much time you spend grinding away at it, because the challenges do take a modicum of skill to beat). Your statement is equivalent to "The single-player campaigns of MW3 and SC2 are essentially the same, since you're just playing through levels against AI until you beat the game." In short: gameplay matters far more than game structure, this is why we have categories called "genres" that we divide games into, and why people say that they like to play FPS games, not "games where I beat up AI for a while and then win." You can't say, "You might as well be playing Farmville," because Farmville does not provide the type of gameplay that I'm interested in.

Now for the kernel of truth in your statement: yes, many games (Farmville, basically all single-player games of every genre, modern themepark MMOs) are primarily designed so that the player will, eventually, beat them. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of games are designed like this. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, there's a reason for that? Maybe there's a reason that people gravitate towards themepark MMOs, with goal and reward structures that are set up similarly to popular games in every genre? It's quite simple: life itself holds enough risk and stress for most people, and this only gets more true as the average age of a gamer gets older. Games are escapism (cue dinging noise as the title of this website lights up) for many people, a way to unwind, socialize, explore, and in general do things without regard for risk or consequences.

I know sandbox games have their place, I know they have their audience, and I know that that audience has been tragically ignored for the past, oh, six years or so (barring the obvious exception of EVE, which isn't for everyone either). But for the love of all things, STOP writing this tripe about how no one understands that their worlds aren't truly alive, how developers are manufacturing conflicts for us, and how there's no real risk in MMOs or gaming anymore. Yes, we know. We want it that way, that's why we buy these games. You're not superior for preferring sandbox games, you just have different tastes, and different reasons for gaming in the first place.

So stop acting like it.
 

schiz0phren1c

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Jan 17, 2008
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Hi Mike,
amazing article much Kudos my man,like many others you brought a gleam of nostalgia to my eye!.
I may be telling you something you already know,but from the tone of your article I know you would absolutely love Neal Stephenson's new Novel Reamde http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamde.

To be honest I think it should be required reading for all Escapists(and gamers in general)
the themes of people getting ganked for their gold and organised warfare in an Mmo(AND RL:) resonate strongly with your article and the associated viewpoints,
I'm loving this book and its themes so much that I actually got back into playing Eve as a more or less direct effect!