I just realised how under used the adult animation industry is when adapting comic books, we have all these live action series based on comics but with animation we can do things that would be impossible to do in live action. What do you guys think, should we have more adult animated series and if so which ones do you want to see adapted
Because its a untapped medium that has a lot of advantages compared to live action and the fact that it hasn't been used to its full potential just because The West thinks "its for kids" is criminal
I think animation has struck an adult chord in the West. Why animation might elude the comics scene is because half of it is already CGI. Having real actors has proven itself a successful bridging device between the obviously fantastic element perfectly encapsulated by CGI already, and living star power. Making it relateable to new and old. By creating a new, yet permanent, face, of an old comic character creates a visceral continuity device for new audiences that expect that in their usual digital media...
Basically living star power has a similar relationship of bridging a character, as a specific actor and their interpretation of James Bond. Some people might love a specific Bond, some may hate that actor's interpretation, but nonetheless it helps create a continuity people want in the transition of ideas. Whether you like it or not, Downey's voice is Iron Man... Downey's face is Iron Man.... Downey's demeanour is Iron Man. And so people will seriously consider Downey as the most immediate way to transmit Iron Man in movie format.
Because there is so much that you can do with animation that is much more difficult and costly to do with live actors. Example, if you have an action scene that involves a lot of jumping and flipping you need to get your actors wires and fiddle about with deceptive camera angles. In animation you just draw them in the air instead of on the ground. Not to mention what can be accomplished using different art styles. With live action the only artstyle is 'real life' and those cg effect had better look perfect or else the show is going to seem ridiculous.
I would like to see more animation aimed at adults regardless of genre.
Unfortunately animation seems to be in full retreat on all fronts. We'll never get an adult animated film if we can't even get children's animated films made. Unless you want that ugly dreamworks style animation...
I don't want adult. I want works of art that enthrall me. I want them to create an atmosphere of their own and come to life, dancing around. I want more things that leave me sitting at the screen waiting for more. I want that feeling of new again. I don't care if it involves adult or childish things, I just want the enthralling quality I look for in animation.
I suppose I'd like to see an adaptation of "Blame!". Science fiction that lays the atmosphere thick, oh how I'd love to see that animated. It's Japanese, but honestly with quite a bit of the moe stuff[footnote]Okay fine, I admit that I have a slight guilty pleasure for some one of them out there, but my point still stands.[/footnote], I suppose I could take something a bit more gritty.
Jesus I need to channel the writer side of me more often. I find it quite enjoyable to describe stuff like this. Or maybe I should stop delaying my sleeping patterns.
I don't know, I sort of agree with thesilentman. A lot of these comic properties are inherently juvenile, I don't think they need to be "adult".
On the other hand, there's some fun stuff out there. I just started watching the Spawn Animated Series, that's fairly good. Nice art style and it's "adult" if that's what you're after. Personally, I don't like it when they decide to get into the sex stuff on there, it's just kind of goofy and gratuitous. I guess it's true to the author's vision, but using partially naked strippers and prostitutes as background decoration's just kind of boring. But the stuff that actually matters to the story, the action, is entertaining and bloody, and it's got a grim tone going on that I enjoy. Others I'd recommend are The Boondocks (Because it's awesome), everyone knows Archer, and Attack on Titan.
I've been enjoying some children's animated stuff. Iron Man: Armoured Adventures is entertaining, Adventure Time and Regular Show are pretty good.
I guess if I were to ask for more, I wouldn't mind an animated version of The Darkness by HBO, if they could capture that shading and line style, that'd be cool, I really like that style. If they could find a middle ground between the depth of content in the comics and the pathos of the Darkness 2, that'd be cool (And probably ultra-juvenile). And they could even cut out the glamour shots of improbable women in 80s g-strings. Makes it awkward to read in public when you come across a two page spread that's basically porn.
Good animation is also quite expensive. I find the most important thing about a show is having an art style I like watching. Anyone who's watched enough animated stuff can see where they skimp because of the budget constraints, only lips moving, extreme close ups, panning over matte paintings, or even the rushing background that everyone's seen in anime.
It depends on what you mean by 'adult'... You mean 'more violent', or just 'more mature storytelling'? Because the later seems to have been around for quite a while in western animation.
Also, the West doesn't have too good a track record with "adult" animation, with most if not all of it being horrble shlock, like Heavy Metal and Cool World. Fire and Ice is kinda okay, but even that one is barely passable. I guess some of the British ones are fine, like Watership Down and The Plague Dogs, but then those are so adamant to being as miserable as possible. Don't even get me started on the "adult" DC animated movies.
It seems whenever western animaton goes specifically adult they feel the need to go all out. I actually like that the West is sometimes forced to get a little creative to fit its more dark and adult themes into what are essentially kids movies and shows.
I'd say this is an issue that goes beyond just "The West" (as ignorant as that term is regarding animation). People flock to Japan for adult animation because they produce so much of it, but I'd say proportionally they make about the same amount of adult animation compared to children's animation as other countries do. It's just that they do so on such a vast scale that it deceives people into thinking that Japan is the only home of adult animation.
As for some animated adult films, there's always stuff like L'Illusioniste or Renaissance if you like french animation. (Renaissance is fucking beautiful even if its story is pretty lackluster. Kind of like a lot of anime actually )
I don't know, most of of these kinds of shows that I watch are animated. Then again I don't pay attention much to western stuff and only really care about anime/manga/visual novels/light novels etc. That kinda stuff. It's definitely animated, just not western animation. Also, one of my favorite western shows, The Boondocks, was animated in Korea, so that's not entirely western too.
PaulH said:
I think animation has struck an adult chord in the West. Why animation might elude the comics scene is because half of it is already CGI. Having real actors has proven itself a successful bridging device between the obviously fantastic element perfectly encapsulated by CGI already, and living star power. Making it relateable to new and old. By creating a new, yet permanent, face, of an old comic character creates a visceral continuity device for new audiences that expect that in their usual digital media...
Basically living star power has a similar relationship of bridging a character, as a specific actor and their interpretation of James Bond. Some people might love a specific Bond, some may hate that actor's interpretation, but nonetheless it helps create a continuity people want in the transition of ideas. Whether you like it or not, Downey's voice is Iron Man... Downey's face is Iron Man.... Downey's demeanour is Iron Man. And so people will seriously consider Downey as the most immediate way to transmit Iron Man in movie format.
Anime does this "living star power" thing you bring up by glorifying the voice actors. It's their way of making someone a superstar and fans who watch shows just cause of that one voice actor is in them. This, of course, is in Japan, where big name VAs are as big as Hollywood superstars are in the west. Western animation, on the other hand, has no names of that magnitude and if they wish to make something with that gravitas they just hire people from live action to do voice acting, despite the fact that these are actors and not VAs. A prime example was Afro Samurai hiring Denzel Washington to portray the protagonist which cost em a pretty penny. In the context of a fan of Japanese voice acting, a whole lot of anime is filled with that tier of star in them, you just have to actually follow it to know and be awed.
Soviet Heavy said:
I'd say this is an issue that goes beyond just "The West" (as ignorant as that term is regarding animation). People flock to Japan for adult animation because they produce so much of it, but I'd say proportionally they make about the same amount of adult animation compared to children's animation as other countries do. It's just that they do so on such a vast scale that it deceives people into thinking that Japan is the only home of adult animation.
As for some animated adult films, there's always stuff like L'Illusioniste or Renaissance if you like french animation. (Renaissance is fucking beautiful even if its story is pretty lackluster. Kind of like a lot of anime actually )
This is because what westerners are aware of tends to be the things that get brought over to the west and those things tend to be upwards of the scale of adultness. Not all of them pay attention to all of the domestically Japanese released stuff to tally up how many of each degree of maturity they're making. Also, a lot of what we here may perceive as childish (Gochuumon wa usagi desu ka) is actually really popular with grownups there so what even fits the description of a show aimed at children is quite in question here as well.
Full Metal Bolshevik said:
loa said:
I think we moved past that at the times of avatar: the last airbender?
I would like to see more animation aimed at adults regardless of genre.
Unfortunately animation seems to be in full retreat on all fronts. We'll never get an adult animated film if we can't even get children's animated films made. Unless you want that ugly dreamworks style animation...
What do you mean we can't get children's animated films made? Dozens of them are made every year. From your comment about dreamworks, I'm assuming you don't consider anything other than cell drawn animation to be "true animation" ? Is that what you mean? If so, good luck ever seeing anything like that ever again. Computer animation is the new medium. You might not like it, but I'm sure the people who were fans of black and white film were made when the new medium made their stuff outdated too. However, technology doesn't care.
OT: To get animated movies in the West to be considered anything more than for kids, I think we're simply going to have to wait another generation or so, for when those of us who have been enjoying animation, and see it as a perfectly reasonable medium of expression, are actually in positions of authority and creation. Right now, people who think anything animated is "kid's stuff" mostly run things in the entertainment industry. And we know how stuffy they are.
I would like to see more animation aimed at adults regardless of genre.
Unfortunately animation seems to be in full retreat on all fronts. We'll never get an adult animated film if we can't even get children's animated films made. Unless you want that ugly dreamworks style animation...
What do you mean we can't get children's animated films made? Dozens of them are made every year. From your comment about dreamworks, I'm assuming you don't consider anything other than cell drawn animation to be "true animation" ? Is that what you mean? If so, good luck ever seeing anything like that ever again. Computer animation is the new medium. You might not like it, but I'm sure the people who were fans of black and white film were made when the new medium made their stuff outdated too. However, technology doesn't care.
I wouldn't compare it to the advent of colored film. That was an actual improvement that didn't take anyway any creative options. It added new areas of expression. Black and white films could still be made, and ARE still being made, and are successful. Instead I would compare it to the advent of factories and sweatshops. Before there was an artistry to creating textiles, or shoes, or hand carved furniture. Then you could produce hundreds of lower quality products faster, and, more importently, cheaply. The plastic look of modern CG lacks any real humanity, and, worse still, it looks outdated after only a few years. But companies are only concerned with the box office, so what happens after that doesn't matter. You're right that this is the future, of course, it's just a bit of a tragedy.
Maybe I could tolerate the films if they were well made, but outside of Pete Doctor's work, Dreamworks and Disney's work has been uniformly terrible.
I don't know, I sort of agree with thesilentman. A lot of these comic properties are inherently juvenile, I don't think they need to be "adult".
On the other hand, there's some fun stuff out there. I just started watching the Spawn Animated Series, that's fairly good. Nice art style and it's "adult" if that's what you're after. Personally, I don't like it when they decide to get into the sex stuff on there, it's just kind of goofy and gratuitous. I guess it's true to the author's vision, but using partially naked strippers and prostitutes as background decoration's just kind of boring. But the stuff that actually matters to the story, the action, is entertaining and bloody, and it's got a grim tone going on that I enjoy. Others I'd recommend are The Boondocks (Because it's awesome), everyone knows Archer, and Attack on Titan.
I've been enjoying some children's animated stuff. Iron Man: Armoured Adventures is entertaining, Adventure Time and Regular Show are pretty good.
I guess if I were to ask for more, I wouldn't mind an animated version of The Darkness by HBO, if they could capture that shading and line style, that'd be cool, I really like that style. If they could find a middle ground between the depth of content in the comics and the pathos of the Darkness 2, that'd be cool (And probably ultra-juvenile). And they could even cut out the glamour shots of improbable women in 80s g-strings. Makes it awkward to read in public when you come across a two page spread that's basically porn.
Good animation is also quite expensive. I find the most important thing about a show is having an art style I like watching. Anyone who's watched enough animated stuff can see where they skimp because of the budget constraints, only lips moving, extreme close ups, panning over matte paintings, or even the rushing background that everyone's seen in anime.
I would like to see more animation aimed at adults regardless of genre.
Unfortunately animation seems to be in full retreat on all fronts. We'll never get an adult animated film if we can't even get children's animated films made. Unless you want that ugly dreamworks style animation...
What do you mean we can't get children's animated films made? Dozens of them are made every year. From your comment about dreamworks, I'm assuming you don't consider anything other than cell drawn animation to be "true animation" ? Is that what you mean? If so, good luck ever seeing anything like that ever again. Computer animation is the new medium. You might not like it, but I'm sure the people who were fans of black and white film were made when the new medium made their stuff outdated too. However, technology doesn't care.
I wouldn't compare it to the advent of colored film. That was an actual improvement that didn't take anyway any creative options. It added new areas of expression. Black and white films could still be made, and ARE still being made, and are successful. Instead I would compare it to the advent of factories and sweatshops. Before there was an artistry to creating textiles, or shoes, or hand carved furniture. Then you could produce hundreds of lower quality products faster, and, more importently, cheaply. The plastic look of modern CG lacks any real humanity, and, worse still, it looks outdated after only a few years. But companies are only concerned with the box office, so what happens after that doesn't matter. You're right that this is the future, of course, it's just a bit of a tragedy.
Maybe I could tolerate the films if they were well made, but outside of Pete Doctor's work, Dreamworks and Disney's work has been uniformly terrible.
All you have expressed is an opinion, but you try and voice it as if it's some demonstrable fact, that cgi animation is inferior to...whatever type of animation you seem to think is "true" animation. Plenty of people enjoy the animation style, myself included. Since you state that cgi lacks real humanity, I would state that all animation lacks real humanity, because none of it looks perfectly human. There is always some difference by the medium, that the audience has to translate in their own minds. I'm sorry you find it so abhorrent, but I seriously doubt it's the downfall of entertainment that you describe it to be.
Here's a similar thread I made some time ago: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.881312-What-property-would-you-like-to-see-made-into-a-western-animated-series?page=1
OT: Yes, I would love to see more western animated series aimed at adults. And to add another parameter: non-comedic western animated series. Sandman would be my first pick to adapt.
See, the thing about animation to me, and many others, is that it really needs to justify itself being an animation. If you're going to set it in mundane surroundings with little action, then why make it animation in the first place (looking at you, endless hordes of high school anime)? Justified animation needs something truly special about itself: a time period, insane action, worlds impossible to create in live action, insane character designs, special setpieces. This was the reason I only watched a few episodes of Death Note: I just felt it would have been better as a book or a live action series. In comparison, Avatar: TLA really fucking justified its status as animation. As did Evangelion, the Vision of Escaflowne, and dozens of anime series.
When you look at what are considered "mature" TV series in the western world, not a lot of it can do this. Game of Thrones is set in a fantasy world, but it's still a dialogue heavy and slowly moving show. The Walking Dead has zombies in it, but is otherwise set in mundane, modern surroundings. Two of the highest rated TV shows in history (The Wire and Breaking Bad) have nothing in them that would justify them being animated. This is why IMO the series would have to be either fantasy or sci-fi, which already limits the audience, and then it would need to go further and have something extreme and outlandish enough in it to really justify animation. Mass Effect would be a good example of this: lots of incredibly alien creatures, big action setpieces and alien worlds. To fully replicate the look of the game series in live action you'd need a massive budget, but with animation you could do it without any extra cost.
Happyninja42 said:
All you have expressed is an opinion, but you try and voice it as if it's some demonstrable fact, that cgi animation is inferior to...whatever type of animation you seem to think is "true" animation. Plenty of people enjoy the animation style, myself included. Since you state that cgi lacks real humanity, I would state that all animation lacks real humanity, because none of it looks perfectly human. There is always some difference by the medium, that the audience has to translate in their own minds. I'm sorry you find it so abhorrent, but I seriously doubt it's the downfall of entertainment that you describe it to be.
He is right about one thing though: CGI animation will always age horrendously poorly. It's a bit of a double edged sword, because it's constantly getting better at an incredible rate, but as a result will always look worse after only a couple of years. Take a look at How to Train Your Dragon in comparison to the sequel: you can clearly tell the difference in nearly every aspect. Hell, take a look at Shrek, and try to tell me those backgrounds don't look like something made in the Quake engine compared to stuff we have today.
Until I'd say the last 10 years ago CGI animation really struggled to even come close to the same level of expressiveness and momentum that short has. And the short will never age, because it never had any real technical limitations to what they could do, just constraints on how much fidelity they could put to it because of budgetary and time reasons. CGI has helped hand drawn animation in this aspect (just look at the background art and CG water effects in some anime series today, they're jaw dropping), but they could have been done 60, 70 years ago with the same leve of detail, with hand drawn animation.
All you have expressed is an opinion, but you try and voice it as if it's some demonstrable fact, that cgi animation is inferior to...whatever type of animation you seem to think is "true" animation. Plenty of people enjoy the animation style, myself included."
Why do people always reply this way when someone makes a statement on the Internet? It doesn't have any substance. It's a non-Reply. Yes, this is me stating my opinion. Obviously it's an opinion. I thought that was self evident.
Im glad you enjoy things. This also doesn't really say anything. It doesn't have anything to do with quality either.
Since you state that cgi lacks real humanity, I would state that all animation lacks real humanity, because none of it looks perfectly human. There is always some difference by the medium, that the audience has to translate in their own minds. I'm sorry you find it so abhorrent, but I seriously doubt it's the downfall of entertainment that you describe it to be.
Calm down, don't get your feathers in a ruffle. CG can have certain advantages in film, such as the expediency of design. Unfortunately it also has numerous shortcomings. For one it has a tendency to break into the uncanny valley. Even good films, like The Incredibles, has a sort of crude, plastic look to it. It lacks the realism of live action, but it also lacks the attention to detail and stylization of cel animation. Some people have argued that animation will look more realistic with time, as it approaches photo realism. But, if that's the case, then why even have it, since we have live action? The alternative is to create a highly stylized, intentionally unrealistic design. But traditional animation is far better at creating that style. CG is also incapable of capturing the speed or diversity of editing capable in traditional animation. This is why many anime production companies, like ghibli, have problems with it. CG is cheap and effective, but it lacks the strengths of traditional or live action films, while having numerous weaknesses. Live action can capture real human emotion. Cel animation captures the humanity and personality of the artist that crafts it. CG is just a model that looks the same no matter what, and that looks fake. In that sense CG can only ever evolve into a dead end.
As I've said before, it also ages poorly. Fantasia still looks amazing. Ghibli reached heights, through the efforts of numerous master artists, that CG could never hope to rival.CG isn't bad, and I'm glad CG films are being made. But I consider them woefully inferior to hand drawn cells for the reasons above, and I think it's very sad that it somehow managed to kill off hand drawn art.
OT: I didn't mean to turn this into a debate. I would love for there to be more adult animation, but we would need a huge hit to show that it's viable economically. A real cultural game changer, like Eva in Japan.
Fuck, I WISH western animation studios would get the lead out and start making more mature animated shows, not that obnoxious try-hard "adult" comedy bullshit like Brickleberry or more new seasons of Family Guy.
Anime has ruled the west in terms of quality shows for decades, I mean the amount of actually great and memorable shows up until recently is staggering at this point, and now that they're starting to become lazy and abysmally cliche it's time for a resurgence of western studios to get off their asses, come together, read a comic, play a game - do FUCKING SOMETHING to get inspired to make a decent adult action cartoon, a suspenseful thriller, horror, or just remake Megas XLR, Gargoyles, Spawn, or Daria or something.
I like the Avatar series, Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, and Star vs. as much as the next twenty-something year old male... but damn it, it's starting to get weird here. I need something to watch other than fucking South Park and Archer, and whatever DCU tosses a few times a year.
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