Most morally incomprehensible character in fiction?

[BNguyen]

The Angels and SEELE from Evangelion.

Spoiler

This is mostly because of the fact that neither group was ever given an explanation for their motivations (at least not in any material which was translated) so we never understand why the Angels want to wipe out humanity, or how SEELE came to the conclusion that wiping out humanity in their own way was in any way in their interest. The only villains we do understand the motive of is Gendo, and that's just because he ended up being the biggest pussy who couldn't deal with lose in history.

well, I kind of have an answer

Spoiler

the angels are pretty much what we as humans are (angels are just other forms we could have taken) it's not that they seek to destroy humanity but rather out of a biological desire to fulfill their role as we did by merging with what is essentially proto life and then becoming the dominant species - they are destructive solely for the reason that humans are preventing them from fulfilling what they were born to do.
Seele on the other hand wants to ensure humanity's survival by eliminating the angels by a prophecy (at least as far as the end of evangelion movie stated) in order to evolve humanity into a more perfect form - something along the lines of what the angels are trying to accomplish - they seek evolution by merging with the proto human
of course this is mere speculation

 

[McMindflayer]

As for OP's question of Walter's reasons

Spoiler

So, Walter was this big badass vampire hunter. He worked with Alucard and Integra's father to go kill nazi vampires and probably did a whole ton of other missions. As a big badass vampire hunter he spent some time wondering if he could take out Alucard. But Alucard was A) working for Walter's employer, and B) never had his full potential unlocked. So killing him underpowered wouldn't be a true test of skills. Gotta understand, Walter is a warrior, spent his time being the best badass vampire hunter and here was the king of vampires right next to him.

Skip ahead a couple of decades, Integra is a little girl, Walter is old and serving as a butler to her uncle, and Alucard is sealed up in his cage until Integra, a hellsing, is old enough to let him out. Recognize that this might be never.
So, The vampire nazi's who Walter didn't kill show up, and are like "HEy Walter, you wanna kill Alucard? We can totally help." And Walter's like "DO I! but he's sealed up and I'm old" So they offer him vampire powers to give him his young reflexes again, if he works for them in releasing alucard and setting up a scenario where he would get all his powers. Walter agrees because he totally wants to see if he could have taken on the best vampire ever.

Full motivation and storyline of Walter. It's silly, but then it's the same motivation everyone else went after Alucard for except the original Hellsing, Van Hellsing.

As a side note: Van Hellsing is, while getting almost no screen time, shown to be the best vampire hunter ever because he took down Alucard when he was at the height of his powers. All the stuff you saw him doing at the end of the series. Van Hellsing had to face that down to defeat Alucard.

 

[zumbledum]

Anakin Skywalker's reasoning behind joining the dark side was pretty stupid.

"I'm going to betray my friends and colleagues, join the obviously evil Sith, destroy the Jedi Order, slaughter a bunch of children and plunge the entire galaxy into darkness because my wife might die if I don't! It's the right thing to do! I'm a good person!"

And then he goes and tries to kill Padme (who's still pregnant) in a fit of rage anyway. Brilliant.

It's made all the sillier when stuff like the CGI Clone Wars series tries to retcon him into a wise and noble mentor figure. It's like he's a completely different person.

I thought they did a pretty good job on showing how Anakin fell. first off he shouldn't of been trained the council turned him down for having too much fear and love in him. he only gets trained because qui-con died and obi was dedicated to his master and saw his wishes through. Obi was too young he wasnt ready to be a master and it would of taken better than their best to train Anakin.
As he grows we seem him develop more severe flaws he shows lots of arrogance and desire.
Then he has Palpatine sitting over his shoulder pouring poison whispering words of corruption wrapped as sensible advice.
He falls in love which is a majour problem for jedi, his mum dies and this is where he falls. his love causes him to feel loss which makes him angry which leads to an entire village of dead women and kids and that right there is where he is no longer jedi he is sith now.

Palpatine pushes it up to 11 and goes after everything as the jedi will sit back and not lift a finger as a loved one dies but a sith would move heaven and earth to save them whose really evil? isnt evil just a point of view? come to the DARKSIDE we have cookies!" His love for padme is the final nail and palpatine exploits it perfectly.

He injures Padme because he is a sith , he allows his emotions control and the rage he feels is deep and we mean rage not anger.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The Angels and SEELE from Evangelion.

Spoiler

This is mostly because of the fact that neither group was ever given an explanation for their motivations (at least not in any material which was translated) so we never understand why the Angels want to wipe out humanity, or how SEELE came to the conclusion that wiping out humanity in their own way was in any way in their interest. The only villains we do understand the motive of is Gendo, and that's just because he ended up being the biggest pussy who couldn't deal with lose in history.

well, I kind of have an answer

Spoiler

the angels are pretty much what we as humans are (angels are just other forms we could have taken) it's not that they seek to destroy humanity but rather out of a biological desire to fulfill their role as we did by merging with what is essentially proto life and then becoming the dominant species - they are destructive solely for the reason that humans are preventing them from fulfilling what they were born to do.
Seele on the other hand wants to ensure humanity's survival by eliminating the angels by a prophecy (at least as far as the end of evangelion movie stated) in order to evolve humanity into a more perfect form - something along the lines of what the angels are trying to accomplish - they seek evolution by merging with the proto human

of course this is mere speculation

No, I think that's pretty much what it is. Not that the lore in NGE makes too much sense, but that's about the gist of it.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Ummm... are you sure this thread is about incomprehensible morals and not incomprehensible motivations? Because most of the posts here would lean more towards the latter.

OT: The Vision of Escaflowne is a great anime, but if you think about it, the villains' plan is completely bonkers. Basically what they're trying to do is end all war... by going out and slaughtering thousands of people in search of some mystical power that was never really explained that well and eventually fulfilling all of mankind's wishes because if no one will lack for anything then there'll be no war, but they keep repeating how human nature is destructive by default and they only end up creating more conflict... aaagh, makes my head hurt.

Borderlands 2 has a very comedic tone overall, but some of the glimpses of the darkness underneath really cast a dubious light on some of the characters, most of all Brick. You're supposed to like him because he's one of the player characters in the first, but he's effectively a roided-up full blown psychopath who makes casual remarks about killing people and even his own men. I know I'm not supposed to think about it too hard, but there's one particular quest in BL2 that raises this side of Pandora, and you can't exactly ignore it since the game itself brings it up.

Commander Shepard, for reasons you all know why.

A little side tangent: Is it just me or does the "fulfill all your wishes" goal seem to be a recurring plot device in anime? I've seen it in at least Escaflowne, NGE, Magi and Berserk.

snip

I hate to open this can of worms, but wasn't Rei in the end effectively an Angel and when she merged with Lilith's corpse she created Third Impact, something which the other angels were trying to do all along? I think they even refer to it being Third Impact in EoE multiple times. Wouldn't that mean that SEELE's plans were ultimately moot and failed, and that they were effectively sabotaging their own plans by funding NERV? But if they genuinely tried to stop the angels, why were they so happy in EoE when all the orange juice stuff happens at the end... aargrgarah smash these stupidly convoluted plots!!!

 

[Varrdy]

I could never get Niko Bellic. For someone who murdered, bullied, extorted and stole as much as he did, he seemed to do a lot of bloody moralising!

 

[Kyber]

Wyald from Berserk. But he's so over the top that he sort of collapses in on himself.

A better one would be John Ryder (Rutger Hauer) from The Hitcher. He does horrible, horrible things as a means to fuck with the protagonist, but for some reason it does seem like there's a purpose behind it, eventhough there obviously isn't. He's just a total mad man. It's really the performance by Hauer that makes him work as well as he does.

The most I could think of is he was just an old man who wanted to be young and strong again, it could be speculated that maybe he felt that he had wasted all of his life being a doormat and wanted to feel like a big man, but then again, this is just speculating.

The fight was hype though

 

[Kyber]

Does Dio Brando count? Is there anything else behind his actions apart from
'I'M GOING TO BE THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE POSSIBLE AND WILL RUIN EVERYONE'S LIVES'?

That was who my mind initially went to. During the few episodes I've watched, all I can think is that he's just being an asshole for the sake of it.

I guess his father being a massive twat could KIND OF be why, but it's a bit of a stretch for that to be the reason for the uber-douchebagness

I think that Dio's father is the reason he wanted to have power, but after receiving the powers of the stone mask he felt everyone was beneath him, and

Spoiler

THE WORLD

belonged to him.

 

[shootthebandit]

Anakin Skywalker's reasoning behind joining the dark side was pretty stupid.

"I'm going to betray my friends and colleagues, join the obviously evil Sith, destroy the Jedi Order, slaughter a bunch of children and plunge the entire galaxy into darkness because my wife might die if I don't! It's the right thing to do! I'm a good person!"

And then he goes and tries to kill Padme (who's still pregnant) in a fit of rage anyway. Brilliant.

It's made all the sillier when stuff like the CGI Clone Wars series tries to retcon him into a wise and noble mentor figure. It's like he's a completely different person.

Its not incomprehensible. Yes its fucking dumb but he was kind of (in the loosest sense) justified. He was very much manipulated by the emperor and he was far to irrational (from the offset) to be a jedi anyway so it was inevitable.

Are the CGI clone wars actually canon?

 

[Denamic]

A lot of anime protagonists.
Average everyguy protagonist that somehow gains the power to save the world, and the end of the world as we know it is imminent. But rather than training or otherwise prepare to maximise chances of survival, oh no! We're late for school! We've go to skip breakfast, or we'll be tardy! Sure is important to study! We've got a test after the apocalypse, after all.

 

[Casual Shinji]

snip

I hate to open this can of worms, but wasn't Rei in the end effectively an Angel and when she merged with Lilith's corpse she created Third Impact, something which the other angels were trying to do all along? I think they even refer to it being Third Impact in EoE multiple times. Wouldn't that mean that SEELE's plans were ultimately moot and failed, and that they were effectively sabotaging their own plans by funding NERV? But if they genuinely tried to stop the angels, why were they so happy in EoE when all the orange juice stuff happens at the end... aargrgarah smash these stupidly convoluted plots!!!

Well, Rei is kind of-uh.... Fuck who knows.

Spoiler

From what I know (or gather) Third Impact was going to happen regardless, the only question being who stands at the center; Humanity or an Angel. The Angels want eternal life by way of establishing a species. Every Angel is basically the first of its kind, and if one makes contact with I believe Adam (or maybe Lilith), it will obtain a species. This in turn would result in the destruction of humanity, since humans and Angels are the same, which I guess suggests there can be only one of this type of lifeform.

The whole idea behind the Human Instrumentality Project is that SEELE feels humanity is at an evolutionary dead end. We can no longer evolve and can only waste away in our own insecurity (allegory). So by merging all humans into one super being we can fulfill eachother's insecurities. This is what happens in EoE. And this is the dark conspiracy that runs through the original show. Whenever you saw SEELE and Gendo in discussion, they never seemed too concerned with the Angels, and treated the conflict with them as little more but an minor inconvenience. The real strife for them was that they needed Gendo to complete their plans, but knew he had his own secret agenda. Which turns out be that he just wanted to be reunited with his wife.

And for his plans, Gendo needs Rei. And this is probably the sole purpose behind her creation. But the third iteration of Rei (if you remember she died twice) in the end decides 'Fuck you Gendo, I'll become God, thank you very much.' What Rei actually is still remains very questionable. She was created from the DNA of Yui Ikari (Shinji's mom), and may even possess a portion of her soul I think, considering certain things that she says. But then Yui's soul is apparently also in Unit-01, and from what I heard Rei is in possession of the Soul of Lillith. The soul of Adam residing in Koaru.

But yeah, that's Evangelion lore for ya. It's fun and all, but try not to make sense of it or it'll tear out your eyeballs and skull fuck you. To me Rei is just an allegory for a fantasy figure. Just as Asuka is for 'reality', and Misato is for 'mother'.

 

[Hades]

Does Dio Brando count? Is there anything else behind his actions apart from
'I'M GOING TO BE THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE POSSIBLE AND WILL RUIN EVERYONE'S LIVES'?

This, first time me and friends watched JoJo, the second the first episode ended, we just said "Dio's a ****!"

OT: Would Tobi from Naruto count? I mean he set up the Akatsuki, started a war and planned to put everyone in an infinite genjutsu all because

Spoiler

The girl he liked died

*face palm*

It's so completely stupid

I was very disappointing with that as well, to the point i can no longer take Tobi seriously as a villain.

My vote however goes to Uchiha Sasuke. He starts out with the ambition to kill his brother for slaughtering his whole clan. That's pretty understandable. Then we find out that his clan where evil warmongers who would start a new world war if they had their way and he still thinks its a great injustice the Leaf village moved to prevent that. When Sasuke wanted revenge against his brother he was at least sane about it, when he wants unjust revenge against the Leaf village he turns into an obsessiveness maniac.

I think it's the part where even innocent children were involved and that the Leaf didn't push for more of a democratic resolution to the situation rather than just slaughtering an entire clan - that and the village enjoys peace from the twisted things that the military does for them - think about it like this - you enjoy products made by (probably a good chance anyways) a third world sweat shop with child laborers - so a person representing that country and those children is angered by how well off you do by what is basically parasitism

at least that's how I see it - it's very reasonable to say the least

But the Leaf did try other means. Someone(I think it was Tobi) said Hiruzen begged the Uchiha for a peaceful solution which they declined. Only then did the elders go with Danzo's idea of killing them all.

The suggestion that its disgust of how the Leaf's peace comes through its military is a very good argument for someone as Pain but i don't think its something that motivates Sasuke. His one and only gripe with the Leaf is his clan's quite rightful extermination. I don't recall him having a problem with the Leaf's or even with Danzo's other crimes.

 

[Rellik San]

Q... seriously Q.

A man who will go into any extremes to test humanity but yet seems to love it's capacity for endless growth, granted Voyager kinda ruined him, but in TNG Q is willing to bet all and then throw infinite odds against humanity for the lulz, the way the series ended though clearly shows despite this, Q is rooting for us to become more than we can be.

So we have a god power who is actively working against us whilst secretly wanting us to win.

If Q was a DnD alignment, he'd be Chaotic Dick.

 

[zegram33]

I'm even more surprised (or am I?) that no one has said Iago from Othello. You tell me exactly what the fuck drives that guy and I'll abscond this place forever.

This amused me because I actually wrote my English lit coursework (only at AS level) on Iago, arguing that at one point he WAS a heroic character (due to how everyone assumes he is) but went a bit mental from jealousy over assuming his wife cheated on him (iirc, was a few years ago now)

just found that an amusing coincidence

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm even more surprised (or am I?) that no one has said Iago from Othello. You tell me exactly what the fuck drives that guy and I'll abscond this place forever.

This amused me because I actually wrote my English lit coursework (only at AS level) on Iago, arguing that at one point he WAS a heroic character (due to how everyone assumes he is) but went a bit mental from jealousy over assuming his wife cheated on him (iirc, was a few years ago now)

just found that an amusing coincidence

What's his beef with Othello though? Why does he keep trying to throw him down? I don't think it's a racist thing, at least he doesn't seem to be impulsed over racism. Act I does away with that as far as I remember. So I'm left wondering if he felt somehow betrayed by Othello, if he loved him or worshipped his friendship and became jealous over his well being, or was simply being "evil for the sake of evil". I can't think of an airtight explanation for his actions.

 

[zegram33]

I'm even more surprised (or am I?) that no one has said Iago from Othello. You tell me exactly what the fuck drives that guy and I'll abscond this place forever.

This amused me because I actually wrote my English lit coursework (only at AS level) on Iago, arguing that at one point he WAS a heroic character (due to how everyone assumes he is) but went a bit mental from jealousy over assuming his wife cheated on him (iirc, was a few years ago now)

just found that an amusing coincidence

What's his beef with Othello though? Why does he keep trying to throw him down? I don't think it's a racist thing, at least he doesn't seem to be impulsed over racism. Act I does away with that as far as I remember. So I'm left wondering if he felt somehow betrayed by Othello, if he loved him or worshipped his friendship and became jealous over his well being, or was simply being "evil for the sake of evil". I can't think of an airtight explanation for his actions.

He thinks Othello's been sleeping with his (Iago's) wife and is trying to take revenge by turning the tables.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

Does Dio Brando count? Is there anything else behind his actions apart from
'I'M GOING TO BE THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE POSSIBLE AND WILL RUIN EVERYONE'S LIVES'?

That was who my mind initially went to. During the few episodes I've watched, all I can think is that he's just being an asshole for the sake of it.

and

Spoiler

THE WORLD

belonged to him.

What you did there...


I see it.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm even more surprised (or am I?) that no one has said Iago from Othello. You tell me exactly what the fuck drives that guy and I'll abscond this place forever.

This amused me because I actually wrote my English lit coursework (only at AS level) on Iago, arguing that at one point he WAS a heroic character (due to how everyone assumes he is) but went a bit mental from jealousy over assuming his wife cheated on him (iirc, was a few years ago now)

just found that an amusing coincidence

What's his beef with Othello though? Why does he keep trying to throw him down? I don't think it's a racist thing, at least he doesn't seem to be impulsed over racism. Act I does away with that as far as I remember. So I'm left wondering if he felt somehow betrayed by Othello, if he loved him or worshipped his friendship and became jealous over his well being, or was simply being "evil for the sake of evil". I can't think of an airtight explanation for his actions.

He thinks Othello's been sleeping with his (Iago's) wife and is trying to take revenge by turning the tables.

He thinks he's sleeping or used to sleep? Because Othello's marrying Desdemona and nothing seems to indicate an unhappy couple. Also, when in the play does Iago conjecture his wife's infidelity, more specifically with Othello?

 

[zegram33]

As I say, its been going on 4 years since I read the play, but im certain he thinks it happened at some point.
don't know if he thinks its still going on though

 

[Quintley]

He thinks he's sleeping or used to sleep? Because Othello's marrying Desdemona and nothing seems to indicate an unhappy couple. Also, when in the play does Iago conjecture his wife's infidelity, more specifically with Othello?

(Jumps in)

Iago's monologue at the end of Act one, last scene 3'
(about Othello) " I hate the Moor, And it is thought abroad that 'twixt my sheets He?s done my office." ie theres a rumour that he slept with Iago's wife.

(jumps out)