I think you are oversimplifying him. Ryan was a ruthless business man who loved money and such, but he would not spend his fortune creating a city just so he could milk the money out of people. That's more of Fontaine's thing.
Ryan is very similar to John Galt, the character from Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Both follow the ideals of objectivism but wish to create a society to allow the gifted to persist, like Rapture was. But Ryan is tragic because he becomes the way you describe him. In Rapture's creation, Ryan was the ideal objectivist: working for his own ends, but allowing his genius and business sense to flourish and benefit the world around him. Tenenbaum is probably a good example of this as well. Working without the restrictions of society, she not only benefits her career by making fantastical discoveries, but these discoveries benefit society as well. That is what objectivism is (in a very generalized sense): working for yourself without the restrictions of others, but allowing your work to benefit society. As time went on, Ryan and his ideals became more severe and radical, to the point where he viewed any sense of help or compassion as communism and slavery.
But I agree with the original poster here, seeing a man whose city is reduced to chaos, whose values are corrupted and radicalized, and
whose brainwashed son eventually beats him to death
is a good example of tragedy. He is a man who went from hero to villain. From free man to tyrant. All because fate and the people around him working against him ("The Great Chain is being pulled away from me. Perhaps I should give it a tug.")
OT: My suggestion would be the Joker from the Killing Joke. The way Moore explained the "one bad day," it seems somewhat reasonable that the Joker becomes insane.
Huh, I really didn't see it that way at all. The way I saw it, Ryan was acting purely selfishly from the beginning, and his views weren't "corrupted", they were like that from the start. It was just that later events forced him to reveal his true self. Therefore it wasn't tragic at all, just someone making a grab for power and then having it all fall apart.
Your view is almost certainly the one that was intended by the way, since the game is based on Atlas Shrugged (a book I haven't read), but I had a different completely different interpretation of what was happening. It's interesting to see it in a different light, and I think it speaks well for the game that that's possible.
He was trying to create a world free of the oppressions of goverment and religion. And even tho he failed at that and became the villain a villain he was still, in my mind one of the most tragic villains I could think of. Because hey, who doesn't want to live free of the restrictive straps of the "enlightened" man?
Yeah, he probably got what was coming to him when his world collapsed around him. But isn't that the tragedy?
Well, what I was trying to say is that he wasn't trying to create a world free of oppressions, he was simply trying to further his own goals. He just wanted to be the boss of his own society, and as soon as things started to turn against him he started making laws for his supposedly "free" society in order to maintain control. Really, he was just a dictator, and his society was free of laws and regulations until the moment that stopped working in his favour.
I don't think it was tragic, mainly because his motivations were all selfish and he was dick right from the start. He didn't want to be "free of the restrictive straps of the "enlightened" man", he wanted to be that man.
Once again, I think you are oversimplifying him and confusing the pre-war Ryan with the Ryan encountered in the game. The Bioshock book does some enlightening on this subject.
Let me say up front that pre-war Ryan was three things: short-sighted, out of touch with the working man, and unsympathetic. He felt that he came nothing, and everyone else could too. He did not understand bad luck or fates playing against someone. So when he heard people begging for charity and support, he did not care. A line in the book, presented from Ryan's thinking, is that people "should take two jobs. Three if necessary." He did not know that jobs were not available. He did not know he did not build enough housing for workers until he had closed Rapture off from the surface, and then he didn't know what to do. He did not like to see people suffer and would have done something to prevent it, but did not want to be a hypocrite. He would have offered support, but Ryan being called a fraud would have shaken the people's support in him and in the ideals of the city.
As time went on, and things became crazier, Ryan became stricter not because he wanted to, because he felt he had to. He disliked Fontaine, not because he was a business rival (in the book, Ryan mentions several times that he liked Fontaine for that reason) but because he feared Fontaine would bring people down from the surface and expose it to the CIA and KGB, his greatest fear. Every new law and restriction came from great hesitance because Ryan did not want to become a king, though that is what he became. Even the use of pheromones to control splicers as shown in this audio diary: http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Desperate_Times Even when you look at other audio diaries where he seems less sympathetic, the reasoning is the same: he wants to keep Rapture safe from the surface and remain under the ideals it was founded. He wants it to continue to be the great city that he always wanted it to be, but the outside forces keep making it difficult, and this frustrates him. So he does something he does not want to do in order to deal with the outside forces, and it gets thrown back in his face.
You know why this is? Because Ryan is a business man. He knows how to run a business. Not a city. He does not know how to deal with people. With social problems. Ryan is not a tyrant, he is incompetent.
Quite possibly Victor Delacroix from Chaos Legion.
He relentlessly pursued his best friend for killing his fiancee, so blinded by rage he couldn't recall the true events that took place. Only in his dying moments, about to release the world's greatest evil did he see that, while possessed by the very evil he was about to release, he attacked his best friend, and his fiancee saved his life by jumping in front of the blade.
Realizing this, he tosses himself from the platform, committing suicide, having just unleashed an unstoppable evil.
Edit: I forgot to mention, the reason he's releasing this being is because he believes it can resurrect his fiancee.
Hello everyone. Today I was watching Nostalgia critic latest video about the top 11 batman episode. While watching it there name two (well mostly all of them, but I just want to talk about these two at the moment.) character that seem the most tragic out of all the villains.
The first one is Mr.Freeze. The second which I'm going to talk about is baby doll. Now I don't remember much about this character as she only had one episode but damn it was one hell of a episode. Though its mostly at the end that really makes this villain tragic.
Spoilers ahead.
Now baby doll is a woman who has a disease that won't let her grow up. So she mostly look like she five or six years old when she really 30ish. She was a huge star back in her 20ies when she was on a corny tv series about her being in a family while she was the youngest daughter. After the rating were going down she decide that she wanted to play bigger and better roles. Though she was a good actress, people didn't want her due to her appearance. So when she try to get back her old show it was to late and everyone move on. Though not baby doll.
Her entire life was in that show, that was her only role she could probably play in that made her feel right. So she gets a idea to kidnap the old crew and relive the show. So of course batman goes and save the day and here what happen at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUtLTxBYZHw
Anyways even though this character was mostly a one time villain it really spoke volumes of how she was tormented inside all her life due to her appearance. Anyways who do you think is the most tragic villain in any medium. That could be comic, book, TV shows, movies or games.
I think you are oversimplifying him. Ryan was a ruthless business man who loved money and such, but he would not spend his fortune creating a city just so he could milk the money out of people. That's more of Fontaine's thing.
Ryan is very similar to John Galt, the character from Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Both follow the ideals of objectivism but wish to create a society to allow the gifted to persist, like Rapture was. But Ryan is tragic because he becomes the way you describe him. In Rapture's creation, Ryan was the ideal objectivist: working for his own ends, but allowing his genius and business sense to flourish and benefit the world around him. Tenenbaum is probably a good example of this as well. Working without the restrictions of society, she not only benefits her career by making fantastical discoveries, but these discoveries benefit society as well. That is what objectivism is (in a very generalized sense): working for yourself without the restrictions of others, but allowing your work to benefit society. As time went on, Ryan and his ideals became more severe and radical, to the point where he viewed any sense of help or compassion as communism and slavery.
But I agree with the original poster here, seeing a man whose city is reduced to chaos, whose values are corrupted and radicalized, and
whose brainwashed son eventually beats him to death
is a good example of tragedy. He is a man who went from hero to villain. From free man to tyrant. All because fate and the people around him working against him ("The Great Chain is being pulled away from me. Perhaps I should give it a tug.")
OT: My suggestion would be the Joker from the Killing Joke. The way Moore explained the "one bad day," it seems somewhat reasonable that the Joker becomes insane.
Huh, I really didn't see it that way at all. The way I saw it, Ryan was acting purely selfishly from the beginning, and his views weren't "corrupted", they were like that from the start. It was just that later events forced him to reveal his true self. Therefore it wasn't tragic at all, just someone making a grab for power and then having it all fall apart.
Your view is almost certainly the one that was intended by the way, since the game is based on Atlas Shrugged (a book I haven't read), but I had a different completely different interpretation of what was happening. It's interesting to see it in a different light, and I think it speaks well for the game that that's possible.
I have had that thought as well, but I tend to give Ryan a more positive view. It is nice to have such debates on a game though. Kudos to Ken Levine for making such a well-developed and controversial character.
Lots of good ones so far, but here's one no one's posted yet: Kerrigan, from Starcraft.
I mean, think about it, she spent the first half of her life being experimented on, and after that, she was betrayed by pretty much EVERYONE she trusted, left to die on a planet being overrun by alien nightmares.
And the cherry on top? She DOESN'T die, but instead BECOMES one of said nightmares.
Lots of good ones so far, but here's one no one's posted yet: Kerrigan, from Starcraft.
I mean, think about it, she spent the first half of her life being experimented on, and after that, she was betrayed by pretty much EVERYONE she trusted, left to die on a planet being overrun by alien nightmares.
And the cherry on top? She DOESN'T die, but instead BECOMES one of said nightmares.
Very good point. I was actaully going to post about her but you beat me to it. Heh, but yeah she is a sad tragic villain as she became the monster she hunted.
I think another villain is Magneto. Though I assume it depends on where you read his origins but in the old 1990's animated series he was a good guy who use his powers for good. Though he grew angry due to how humans always did things wrong and how mutants were always mistreated. I mean he is still human yet we treat him and the rest of them like some sort of animal that don't have feelings and are just monsters.
So what does he do? Make a war against humans so his own kind can live in peace. True he doing it all wrong but when you keep getting attack by humans for stupid reasons I guess you just give up and do things your own way.
You do realize that none of that was real, right? The Joker made it up. Remember all that insanity he's got?
"Something like that happened to me, you know. I...I'm not exactly sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another...If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"
the character L.A. from the anime El Cazador de la Bruja. he is born loving this girl who hates him because of his obsession, and seems to have no understanding of much else. then just as he began to understand what he felt, he finds he has been programmed since birth to follow the orders of the real villain, is totally stripped of his will, and sent to fight a foe he can't possibly beat only to recover just in time to die tragically.
a fucking quadruple agent who was following a twenty-ish year plan to help raise the son of his most hated enemy, and the only girl he ever loved, to fight the most evil person ever. After all of which he died protecting the final secret in the plan to assure victory.
yeah. makes sense.
and that was the abridged description.
It's rather hard to explain how if you haven't played the game, but 4 of the 5 "villians" in Neverwinter Nights 2, mask of the Betrayer
Akachi, Araman, and The Founder all serve as "unwitting" villians. Kelemvor also does well in this role. I'd go so far as to say he serves the best in this whole "tragic villian" bit. While the first three are being yanked around by a god, Kelemvor is a god who has to do what Ao (The Overgod) has comanded in regards to the Wall of the Faithless.
Jigsaw.
Let's see,cancer patient? CHECK.
Unborn Child? CHECK.
Survivor of a Suicide Attempt? CHECK.
He just didn't really have a good method of spreading his message of "Live life and appreciate it." and anyone he thought could take his mantle when he dies turns out to be an asshole or Dr.Gordon. (Oh and spoiler warning. =P)
Old King (Armored core: for answer) This one always gets me.(Spoiler warning) Old king is a mech pilot that was banned from a rebel group of pilots for being to extreme in his methods (Killing innocents)near the end of the game he offers you a job to aid him in the slaughter of millions upon millions of people (there was a warped logic to doing it but he claimed it was mainly because "It will be exciting")
Hes a genocidal sociopath to be sure, but after you slaughter millions with him...you kinda become his friend and he even comes to your aid when your ambushed by a group of no less than 5 elite pilots sent to kill you for aiding him in the above-mentioned slaughter. Old king dies in the fight (Protecting you) and his last words are "I'm glad I got to...know you better"
The point is, even though hes one sick bastard, he's a complete and utter bro. Also he sounds like the count from sesame street...bonus.
[/spoiler] The beast is John White from Infamous 1 who had the conduit gene and believed he was using his powers by activating all potential conduits to save them from the plague, but anyone not lucky enough to have the conduit gene died. Even so John thought he was doing good, not evil. The offer he gave you was very tempting, but unfortunatly, it was the evil choice in the game [/spoiler]
The beast is John White from Infamous 1 who had the conduit gene and believed he was using his powers by activating all potential conduits to save them from the plague, but anyone not lucky enough to have the conduit gene died. Even so John thought he was doing good, not evil. The offer he gave you was very tempting, but unfortunatly, it was the evil choice in the game
I think Light from Deathnote would be a good choice. Granted he's the main character, but I think he definitely qualifies as the villain. He started out with good intentions, but I think he just got too caught up in the power of it all. He also made some blatantly dumb decisions for being a genius.
I have to say, I honestly don't see Andrew Ryan as the truly most tragic villian. It might be my own personal reservations on Objectivism, but it is not on my opinion that a real life Rapture would be built on anything less than Avarice. And as time goes on in the story, the more information you get on Andrew Ryan you find that while he had grande aspiritions, they were so seeded in intolerance and heartless dismissal of his citizens that they no longer meant something. And plus he's based off of Ayn Rand, so he probably raped somebody (and rape is wrong).
My mot tragic villain is The Master from Doctor Who. In the old series, the Master was basically the Time Lord equivalent of special ops, sent after a rogue Doctor by his own government, paid n regenerations. So, he's kind of like the Time Lord's Hero, and he keeps getting killed off by a guy in a funny scarf. But if we were to consider the New series as cannon he was damned to an insanity orchestrated by a corrupted Time Lord Counsel from the very moment he looked into the void. The Master had no chance, he was simply a victim of high grade insanity. He even ran from it, tried to become normal and inhabited the body of a helpful scientist. But even then, cruel fate as would have it, that it would all return. He then was killed by his wife (but to be fair he did enslave humanity), and then brought back by, I don't know, Magic? But was brought back with a condition that required him to kill people to stay alive.
And worst of all: his entire life, his one purpose was to act as a catalyst for the Time Lords to return. Yes, his entire life he was meant to be a tool. So to review: insane special op, who is orchestrated by his government to take down a rogue agent, driven insane by both the man he hunted and the people who gave him orders, killed over and over to the point of delirium, only to find out that he had zero control on what he does, that it and his path had already been chosen for him.
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