Move and Natal Will Be "Game Changer or Gimmicks" at E3

[LavaLampBamboo]

I know it's been said before on this thread, but what Pachter is basically saying;

The most important games convention of the year is important this year.

Swish.

Whose to say that they can't be both game changer and gimmick? The motion control on the Wii is pretty much a gimmick, yet changed how we look at video gaming. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[GonzoGamer]

These things are already gimmicks. If they can get the devs to give these gimmicks decent support, they can move. Nintendo's mistake is that they couldn't get gamers like us to buy too many accessories and software because the little support we got from our favorite devs were usually old ports and not even from the best titles.
The wii expanded the gamer market but if it's going to expand it's own market it's going to need to hire R*, Bethesda, and Activision make gta, fallout, and modern warfare games on the machine.
Hopefully these things will be more revolutionary but I am skeptical.

Thing is, Fallout would be great on the Natal. If it's even a tenth as good as the Milo demo, then you could have conversations by talking to the characters instead of picking options. Even if it just recognises key words and tone of voice, that'd be a massive breathrough for RPGs.

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

The thing is that Bethesda game conversations aren't all that elaborate, doing that might just complicate things.
I like RTSs but I can't see one working on natal unless it's very simple. If there's one thing you need for a good rts, it's buttons. The traditional console pad's 10-14 buttons aren't enough, a buttonless scheme would probably be even worse. Did you try End War?
Now I'm not saying it's impossible but it will take them a long while (and a few really bad attempts) to get that down.

 

[craddoke]

All motion control devices are gimmicks - a true innovation will make interaction easier and more precise. These are all Rube Goldberg devices compared to a simple console controller or keyboard/mouse combination.

Now, when we're able to hook our systems directly to our central nervous systems THAT will be something worth talking about.

 

[obisean]

Tomatoes in hamburgers are either delicious or nasty.

When do I start getting paid to say this kind of stuff?

 

[thethingthatlurks]

Man, I have got to figure out how Patcher got his job.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I could state the blindingly obvious at least as convincingly as he does.

Yeah, I'd be set for life for doing nothing but stating tautologies: It may or may not be sunny tomorrow...

Back on topic, am I the only one who foresees a huge number of porn games being released for that Natal-thing?

 

[Seatownstriker]

If you could integrate something like the Peregrine Glove into the mix with the Natal. It would be awesome. And from reading Peregrines FAQ there are plans to put it on consoles as well.

 

[MetaKnight19]

I told a member of staff at my local GAME store recently that I thought Natal was a jumped-up EyeToy (which annoyed him a fair bit), and I stick by that. Fair enough, if Natal and Move gets better dev support than the Wii did, then maybe we'll see some decent player involvement games.

I'll wait until E3 though to see what Natal and Move can really do.

 

[Raesvelg]

You know, if I were Microsoft, I'd really want people to use a different picture of the Natal.

I mean, look at it. Sure, you've got a hot chick doing that massively dynamic high kick.

But what's her AVATAR doing?

 

[Chipperz]

These things are already gimmicks. If they can get the devs to give these gimmicks decent support, they can move. Nintendo's mistake is that they couldn't get gamers like us to buy too many accessories and software because the little support we got from our favorite devs were usually old ports and not even from the best titles.
The wii expanded the gamer market but if it's going to expand it's own market it's going to need to hire R*, Bethesda, and Activision make gta, fallout, and modern warfare games on the machine.
Hopefully these things will be more revolutionary but I am skeptical.

Thing is, Fallout would be great on the Natal. If it's even a tenth as good as the Milo demo, then you could have conversations by talking to the characters instead of picking options. Even if it just recognises key words and tone of voice, that'd be a massive breathrough for RPGs.

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

The thing is that Bethesda game conversations aren't all that elaborate, doing that might just complicate things.
I like RTSs but I can't see one working on natal unless it's very simple. If there's one thing you need for a good rts, it's buttons. The traditional console pad's 10-14 buttons aren't enough, a buttonless scheme would probably be even worse. Did you try End War?
Now I'm not saying it's impossible but it will take them a long while (and a few really bad attempts) to get that down.

Conversations with Natal strike me as being hell to code to start with, but satisfying once they're got right. Say your character wants to get to Megaton, so you walk up to a trader and select that you want to talk to him. You say 'how do I get to Megaton?' and the game recognises 'how' denoting a question, 'get to' denoting directions and 'Megaton' as the place. He'll then point you in a rough direction or mark it on your map. You can then ask for repairs or trade, each opening their own menu (in a perfect world, this would be navigatable by voice too - 'fix my handgun' 'I'll take the leather armour.') It's essentially a text-based adventure, but spoken. After that's perfected, work could be started on recognising facial and hand movements - could you imagine being able to give the finger to a bad guy as he tells you his plan?

Also, I count 14 buttons on the controller, two thumbsticks, and the ability to draw on the map with your hands. Combined with the ability to say unit stances and quick orders, I cant think of anything else you'd need...

 

[Kojiro ftt]

Gimmicks.

 

[GonzoGamer]

These things are already gimmicks. If they can get the devs to give these gimmicks decent support, they can move. Nintendo's mistake is that they couldn't get gamers like us to buy too many accessories and software because the little support we got from our favorite devs were usually old ports and not even from the best titles.
The wii expanded the gamer market but if it's going to expand it's own market it's going to need to hire R*, Bethesda, and Activision make gta, fallout, and modern warfare games on the machine.
Hopefully these things will be more revolutionary but I am skeptical.

Thing is, Fallout would be great on the Natal. If it's even a tenth as good as the Milo demo, then you could have conversations by talking to the characters instead of picking options. Even if it just recognises key words and tone of voice, that'd be a massive breathrough for RPGs.

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

The thing is that Bethesda game conversations aren't all that elaborate, doing that might just complicate things.
I like RTSs but I can't see one working on natal unless it's very simple. If there's one thing you need for a good rts, it's buttons. The traditional console pad's 10-14 buttons aren't enough, a buttonless scheme would probably be even worse. Did you try End War?
Now I'm not saying it's impossible but it will take them a long while (and a few really bad attempts) to get that down.

Conversations with Natal strike me as being hell to code to start with, but satisfying once they're got right. Say your character wants to get to Megaton, so you walk up to a trader and select that you want to talk to him. You say 'how do I get to Megaton?' and the game recognises 'how' denoting a question, 'get to' denoting directions and 'Megaton' as the place. He'll then point you in a rough direction or mark it on your map. You can then ask for repairs or trade, each opening their own menu (in a perfect world, this would be navigatable by voice too - 'fix my handgun' 'I'll take the leather armour.') It's essentially a text-based adventure, but spoken. After that's perfected, work could be started on recognising facial and hand movements - could you imagine being able to give the finger to a bad guy as he tells you his plan?

Also, I count 14 buttons on the controller, two thumbsticks, and the ability to draw on the map with your hands. Combined with the ability to say unit stances and quick orders, I cant think of anything else you'd need...

Yea. Those conversations in fallout would be very cool (especially as you described them) but for now anything like that which they could do, would have to be optional, not just for other platforms but for anyone with a 360 who doesn't want natal. They probably couldn't make all that stuff optional if it would have additional effects in the game.
I always say 12-14 because some don't count the directional pad. Like I said, I do think it's possible for the RTS idea but it will take a while and a few really bad attempts first.

 

[Silver Patriot]

These things are already gimmicks. If they can get the devs to give these gimmicks decent support, they can move. Nintendo's mistake is that they couldn't get gamers like us to buy too many accessories and software because the little support we got from our favorite devs were usually old ports and not even from the best titles.
The wii expanded the gamer market but if it's going to expand it's own market it's going to need to hire R*, Bethesda, and Activision make gta, fallout, and modern warfare games on the machine.
Hopefully these things will be more revolutionary but I am skeptical.

Thing is, Fallout would be great on the Natal. If it's even a tenth as good as the Milo demo, then you could have conversations by talking to the characters instead of picking options. Even if it just recognises key words and tone of voice, that'd be a massive breathrough for RPGs.

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

The thing is that Bethesda game conversations aren't all that elaborate, doing that might just complicate things.
I like RTSs but I can't see one working on natal unless it's very simple. If there's one thing you need for a good rts, it's buttons. The traditional console pad's 10-14 buttons aren't enough, a buttonless scheme would probably be even worse. Did you try End War?
Now I'm not saying it's impossible but it will take them a long while (and a few really bad attempts) to get that down.

Endwars system was flawed I admit, but it had real potential. Combine that with a R.U.S.E. like interface and I the resulting RTS could be one of the best ever.

As far as Natal goes I think it could be great for RTS and RPG games covered well if done right, but Move has FPS games down easily. Whether or not Natal can do the same is something I will have to see. I kind of think they won't try.

Also I like to point out that the next Halo after Reach (and you are lying to yourself if you think MS is giving that up) will be made by MS in house. If there going to incorperate Natal into Shooters, there is their best chance. Though it is also be a huge risk to do so especially since not everybody will have Natal. That would be the turning point for me into making Natal a "Game Changer." If Microsoft is willing to put there biggest franchise on it.

The same goes for Sony as well. Though I belive it is more likely to be accepted. Also, Killzome 3 is going 3D. So it seems that Sony is willing to take thoes risks.

 

[Javex]

Natal will fail. So will the move. Anyone that wanted motion controls already has them on the Wii. The people I play games with all agree that playing on the Wii just never feels "right". It feels like a lack of control. I doubt the Move will be any better. And the problem with Natal is that I can't see anything besides an on-rails shooter or stand-in place game working. How are you supposed to move your character around in 3-D space with Natal in games like Call of Duty? Run in place? How do you signal that you want to shoot? I'm playing the "gimmick" card.

 

[GonzoGamer]

These things are already gimmicks. If they can get the devs to give these gimmicks decent support, they can move. Nintendo's mistake is that they couldn't get gamers like us to buy too many accessories and software because the little support we got from our favorite devs were usually old ports and not even from the best titles.
The wii expanded the gamer market but if it's going to expand it's own market it's going to need to hire R*, Bethesda, and Activision make gta, fallout, and modern warfare games on the machine.
Hopefully these things will be more revolutionary but I am skeptical.

Thing is, Fallout would be great on the Natal. If it's even a tenth as good as the Milo demo, then you could have conversations by talking to the characters instead of picking options. Even if it just recognises key words and tone of voice, that'd be a massive breathrough for RPGs.

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

The thing is that Bethesda game conversations aren't all that elaborate, doing that might just complicate things.
I like RTSs but I can't see one working on natal unless it's very simple. If there's one thing you need for a good rts, it's buttons. The traditional console pad's 10-14 buttons aren't enough, a buttonless scheme would probably be even worse. Did you try End War?
Now I'm not saying it's impossible but it will take them a long while (and a few really bad attempts) to get that down.

Endwars system was flawed I admit, but it had real potential. Combine that with a R.U.S.E. like interface and I the resulting RTS could be one of the best ever.

As far as Natal goes I think it could be great for RTS and RPG games covered well if done right, but Move has FPS games down easily. Whether or not Natal can do the same is something I will have to see. I kind of think they won't try.

Also I like to point out that the next Halo after Reach (and you are lying to yourself if you think MS is giving that up) will be made by MS in house. If there going to incorperate Natal into Shooters, there is their best chance. Though it is also be a huge risk to do so especially since not everybody will have Natal. That would be the turning point for me into making Natal a "Game Changer." If Microsoft is willing to put there biggest franchise on it.

The same goes for Sony as well. Though I belive it is more likely to be accepted. Also, Killzome 3 is going 3D. So it seems that Sony is willing to take thoes risks.

The big difference is that KZ3 will be playable on a regular tv too.
The risky thing about natal is that most of the games that really open it up will only be playable with natal. There will be titles like Fable 3 that can utilize natal but don't depend on the accessory but if they all stick to that, it wont go anywhere and it wont reach it's potential.
I can see a standard shooter actually being easier to have on natal than a good rts.

Sony basically did what sony does best: carbon copy another system's feature and while I don't see it going anywhere really, it has a lot better chance of being incorporated into a wider variety of standard titles.

But all this stuff are just kneejerk responses to the wii's popularity and that was mostly popular with people who aren't usually considered gamers and are not likely to buy another system. I think when S&M started R&D on these devises, they were hoping to steal some of the new market from N but that's just not going to happen.

 

[Korey Von Doom]

Well after seeing that youtube video of normal people playing with Natal, I figure it's going to be a gimmick, however with a SOCOM game supporting Move it's hard to say about the move. Even though the Move controller looks silly.

 

[Ontoue]

Alright, screw this, I'm becoming a Pc gamer.

EDIT: But they may actually put good games on these things, however unlikely.

high five! welcome to the club! we have cookies. stay away from WoW, you could die alone in your mothers basement

OT: i vote gimmick. im not buying it.

Woo! I'm welcome somewhere! Now all I need is a computer that can actually run games.

Well, back to the drawing board.

 

[Treblaine]

Pachter's Great predictions:

"Natal and Move will respectively either fail or succeed"

"An Eighth generation of consoles will be released some time in the future"

"if you flip a coin, it will land on either head or tails"

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

oh my gentle jesus... dear god, NO! This will what your arm will feel like after 10 minutes of gameplay:

That's right, the old ergonomics adage of the Gorilla Arm the age old mistake that everyone has to make OVER AND OVER AGAIN, the human arm is no designed to be raised unsupported to do fine delicate tasks for more than a few moments. Your arm quickly curls inward and goes stiff and painful.

Hand gestures look cool for 5 minutes till you realise why a mouse is better. Regardless of how good the sensor is (it isn't that good) an outstretched unsupported hand is incredibly imprecise, you don't have the support and friction of resting your hand on a table with a mouse.

In fact, have you played ANY RTS games at all?!?!? Why would you possibly want to trade the speed and precision of a mouse? And why bring in voice commands in considering how slow and unreliable voice-to-text conversion is and then think about how reliable the game is at interpreting your human sentence into an ACTUAL order the game understands. Better to have a discrete order list than an open ended order.

Why would you need Natal for voice commands anyway? PCs have had speaker ports since - well, they've always had them.

 

[Sneaky Paladin]

If it can make a girl come in my house and stretch like that I really don't care.

But I think it will like the wii be filled with shovelware.

 

[Zedzero]

I think people said things like this about Wii... And we all know how that turned out.

"Super Hyper Beach Volleyball Supreme Special Mega Remixed Edition: Christmas Spirit in Hawaii".

And it still sold more copies than anything else...

Just proves that 90% of everything sucks. Including people.

and 52% of those people are women

(actual facts not included)

 

[Silver Patriot]

Spoiler

Pachter's Great predictions:

"Natal and Move will respectively either fail or succeed"

"An Eighth generation of consoles will be released some time in the future"

"if you flip a coin, it will land on either head or tails"

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

oh my gentle jesus... dear god, NO! This will what your arm will feel like after 10 minutes of gameplay:

That's right, the old ergonomics adage of the Gorilla Arm the age old mistake that everyone has to make OVER AND OVER AGAIN, the human arm is no designed to be raised unsupported to do fine delicate tasks for more than a few moments. Your arm quickly curls inward and goes stiff and painful.

Hand gestures look cool for 5 minutes till you realise why a mouse is better. Regardless of how good the sensor is (it isn't that good) an outstretched unsupported hand is incredibly imprecise, you don't have the support and friction of resting your hand on a table with a mouse.

In fact, have you played ANY RTS games at all?!?!? Why would you possibly want to trade the speed and precision of a mouse? And why bring in voice commands in considering how slow and unreliable voice-to-text conversion is and then think about how reliable the game is at interpreting your human sentence into an ACTUAL order the game understands. Better to have a discrete order list than an open ended order.

Why would you need Natal for voice commands anyway? PCs have had speaker ports since - well, they've always had them.

These things are already gimmicks. If they can get the devs to give these gimmicks decent support, they can move. Nintendo's mistake is that they couldn't get gamers like us to buy too many accessories and software because the little support we got from our favorite devs were usually old ports and not even from the best titles.
The wii expanded the gamer market but if it's going to expand it's own market it's going to need to hire R*, Bethesda, and Activision make gta, fallout, and modern warfare games on the machine.
Hopefully these things will be more revolutionary but I am skeptical.

Thing is, Fallout would be great on the Natal. If it's even a tenth as good as the Milo demo, then you could have conversations by talking to the characters instead of picking options. Even if it just recognises key words and tone of voice, that'd be a massive breathrough for RPGs.

Also, because noone ever listens to me, Natal would be GREAT for RTS games - a combination of hand movements and spoken orders would blow the keyboard/mouse interface out of the water.

The thing is that Bethesda game conversations aren't all that elaborate, doing that might just complicate things.
I like RTSs but I can't see one working on natal unless it's very simple. If there's one thing you need for a good rts, it's buttons. The traditional console pad's 10-14 buttons aren't enough, a buttonless scheme would probably be even worse. Did you try End War?
Now I'm not saying it's impossible but it will take them a long while (and a few really bad attempts) to get that down.

Endwars system was flawed I admit, but it had real potential. Combine that with a R.U.S.E. like interface and I the resulting RTS could be one of the best ever.

As far as Natal goes I think it could be great for RTS and RPG games covered well if done right, but Move has FPS games down easily. Whether or not Natal can do the same is something I will have to see. I kind of think they won't try.

Also I like to point out that the next Halo after Reach (and you are lying to yourself if you think MS is giving that up) will be made by MS in house. If there going to incorperate Natal into Shooters, there is their best chance. Though it is also be a huge risk to do so especially since not everybody will have Natal. That would be the turning point for me into making Natal a "Game Changer." If Microsoft is willing to put there biggest franchise on it.

The same goes for Sony as well. Though I belive it is more likely to be accepted. Also, Killzome 3 is going 3D. So it seems that Sony is willing to take thoes risks.

The big difference is that KZ3 will be playable on a regular tv too.
The risky thing about natal is that most of the games that really open it up will only be playable with natal. There will be titles like Fable 3 that can utilize natal but don't depend on the accessory but if they all stick to that, it wont go anywhere and it wont reach it's potential.
I can see a standard shooter actually being easier to have on natal than a good rts.

Sony basically did what sony does best: carbon copy another system's feature and while I don't see it going anywhere really, it has a lot better chance of being incorporated into a wider variety of standard titles.

But all this stuff are just kneejerk responses to the wii's popularity and that was mostly popular with people who aren't usually considered gamers and are not likely to buy another system. I think when S&M started R&D on these devises, they were hoping to steal some of the new market from N but that's just not going to happen.

(Left Hand)*circle, point* (Right Hand)*"tap," tap on upgrade* "Alpha flank left" "Charle support Alpha"

That's how I visioned it. In the time it would have taken me to point and click (even with my units bound to whatever keys) I just made at least double the moves. Voice select a unit, point at a place on the world map, send them anywere. More flexable than just voice with minimal arm movement.

Realisticly though your probably right. As of now even the most advanced (Read: Military [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition#Military]) software recognition is only 95% accuate with proper training and restricted vocab and personally I don't feel motion controlers like Natal are going to make massive ground this generation. Though I want to believe they would take the right steps forward.

Off-Topic: What we need is holograms. That will really change RTS games.

Not on Natal. Dosen't prove anything, but I do think it is interesting.