Movie Defense Force: Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace

[Sir Shockwave]

The umbara arc? Was that the one with the 4 armed alien jedi who hated clones?

The Nightsisters arc? Is that Ventress' arc where they make a new zabrak assassin? savage opress or whatever? and then curse count dooku?

Mortis arc with the father, son, and daughter... /facepalm (that one had potential but imo they fell flat on their faces with it.)

Gotta say all those were pretty terrible imo. But they don't touch the complete foolishness of the mandolorians and bring back Darth Maul. That whole series was trying way too hard. Ashoka is a not bad character because she is mary sue-esque, but because she was poorly executed. This seems to be a running theme with all things Star Wars lately. Get a great premise then fall on your face while trying to deliver it.

The Clone Wars was a good cartoon and I watched most of them, but I have to say i was disappointed by just about every thing they tried to pull. The blue shadow virus? The battle of Kamino? meh...

I think the Malevolence arc and the Cad Bane arc were the show's highest points. Actually, the bounty hunters were all pretty well done when I think about it, even if they were pretty campy most of the time. But hey, opinions. Even tho I wasn't a fan, I still wish it was around as well as Young Justice. Seems like so many good shows in animation don't get a fair chance these days.

hold on, let me put on my pretentious hipster hat. Okay. Tartakovsky's show may have been short and may have been a lead in to the third movie, but I feel it had more substance than The Clone Wars. Sometimes less can be better. Less is more, so to speak. I think Tart's show captured more of what was "Star Wars" from the prequels by being short, action heavy, and just, well, Gendy. The Clone Wars tried but it ran into its worst enemy, as so many other Star Wars things do, itself.

With the above choices (and most of the discussion), I was mostly going by popular consensus, based on the best information I had to hand...though my personal favorite was indeed the Umbara arc (and come to think of it, most of the Clone Trooper episodes). In either ways, it was good but as I think we have consensus on, it wasn't perfect and it could have been a whole lot better.

Oh, and the only "Pretentious Hipster" here really is the one you invent yourself. I am a believer of freedom of discussion (and more to the point, a different opinion is not a bad opinion). I also remind you I never said it was a terrible show at all, especially by the typical standards associated when one is doing anything deemed a "Kids Show". I have however felt it was Tart's weakest work, and I still stand by that.

However, OPINIONS! X3

 

[Ishal]

The umbara arc? Was that the one with the 4 armed alien jedi who hated clones?

The Nightsisters arc? Is that Ventress' arc where they make a new zabrak assassin? savage opress or whatever? and then curse count dooku?

Mortis arc with the father, son, and daughter... /facepalm (that one had potential but imo they fell flat on their faces with it.)

Gotta say all those were pretty terrible imo. But they don't touch the complete foolishness of the mandolorians and bring back Darth Maul. That whole series was trying way too hard. Ashoka is a not bad character because she is mary sue-esque, but because she was poorly executed. This seems to be a running theme with all things Star Wars lately. Get a great premise then fall on your face while trying to deliver it.

The Clone Wars was a good cartoon and I watched most of them, but I have to say i was disappointed by just about every thing they tried to pull. The blue shadow virus? The battle of Kamino? meh...

I think the Malevolence arc and the Cad Bane arc were the show's highest points. Actually, the bounty hunters were all pretty well done when I think about it, even if they were pretty campy most of the time. But hey, opinions. Even tho I wasn't a fan, I still wish it was around as well as Young Justice. Seems like so many good shows in animation don't get a fair chance these days.

hold on, let me put on my pretentious hipster hat. Okay. Tartakovsky's show may have been short and may have been a lead in to the third movie, but I feel it had more substance than The Clone Wars. Sometimes less can be better. Less is more, so to speak. I think Tart's show captured more of what was "Star Wars" from the prequels by being short, action heavy, and just, well, Gendy. The Clone Wars tried but it ran into its worst enemy, as so many other Star Wars things do, itself.

With the above choices (and most of the discussion), I was mostly going by popular consensus, based on the best information I had to hand...though my personal favorite was indeed the Umbara arc (and come to think of it, most of the Clone Trooper episodes). In either ways, it was good but as I think we have consensus on, it wasn't perfect and it could have been a whole lot better.

Oh, and the only "Pretentious Hipster" here really is the one you invent yourself. I am a believer of freedom of discussion (and more to the point, a different opinion is not a bad opinion). I also remind you I never said it was a terrible show at all, especially by the typical standards associated when one is doing anything deemed a "Kids Show". I have however felt it was Tart's weakest work, and I still stand by that.

However, OPINIONS! X3

Perhaps it was misleading what I posted. I wasn't calling you a pretentious hipster, if you took it that way. Indeed it was an image for myself as I often see opinions such as my own (nebulous) "Star Wars feel" idea being shouted by hipsters quite often. So if my previous post was misleading, I apologize.

I tend to think we reached the consensus that it could have been better as well. My main gripe is just one of not knowing exactly what I want.

On one hand, I see a lot of promising shows biting the dust early (or not even getting green lit at all). On the other hand the ones that are out there that I mentioned (The Clone Wars and Young Justice) have been cancelled... but I wasn't a big fan of them so I eh..

I want decent animation to be out there, and the stereotype of "kids shows" irks me to know end. Its just frustrating. But I think Star Wars is kinda getting like Batman at this point, at least for me. I've had my fill of The Force. I'm full. I'm content to be without it until the new movies hit theaters.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Perhaps it was misleading what I posted. I wasn't calling you a pretentious hipster, if you took it that way. Indeed it was an image for myself as I often see opinions such as my own (nebulous) "Star Wars feel" idea being shouted by hipsters quite often. So if my previous post was misleading, I apologize.

I tend to think we reached the consensus that it could have been better as well. My main gripe is just one of not knowing exactly what I want.

On one hand, I see a lot of promising shows biting the dust early (or not even getting green lit at all). On the other hand the ones that are out there that I mentioned (The Clone Wars and Young Justice) have been cancelled... but I wasn't a big fan of them so I eh..

I want decent animation to be out there, and the stereotype of "kids shows" irks me to know end. Its just frustrating. But I think Star Wars is kinda getting like Batman at this point, at least for me. I've had my fill of The Force. I'm full. I'm content to be without it until the new movies hit theaters.

Then I also apologize for any perceived rudeness on my part.

In regards to your points, I can understand where your coming from - I may not have been much of a Young Justice person, but the second half of Green Lantern was rather quickly turning my opinion around on the show I had previously considered "So Okay it's Average".

I can sympethise with wanting decent animation out there, but it looks like anytime something comes up, it'll either overstay it's welcome and start running itself into the ground (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic) or be cancelled abruptly (the recent Thundercats remake). At least both Clone Wars shows had something of a decent lifespan (The Taratovsky shorts at least tell a complete story with zero loose ends, and the more recent show had between 20 and 22 episodes a season, for a number between 100 and 108 over it's lifespan), and thus (sort of - the Taratovsky shorts got a full run at least) avoid the treatment Young Justice, Green Lantern and other such shows got.

 

[TheSchaef]

The best thing to come out of Episode I was the board game: The Queen's Gambit.

Jim hit the high points of the film - the podrace and the Maul fight - but dropped the only character, not only in this film but in the entire trilogy, that had any intrigue or development whatsoever: Palpatine.

People argue over who, if anyone, is the protagonist in this and the other stories. Some even surmise Jar Jar. But it's not him, nor Anakin, nor Obi-Wan, it's Palpatine.

The real story of the trilogy is his elaborate machinations to elevate himself to power and to blunt the three main obstacles in his way: the Senate as a governing body, the lack of a military force to hold power, and the presence of the Jedi. And each movie highlights his triumph over each of these issues in turn.

People yawn and complain about the political aspects of the films, this one in particular, but what we're actually witnessing is Palpatine playing both sides against the middle: pushing the Trade Federation and other factions into dissension, while spearheading the Republic's efforts to thwart them. And every action people took - of their own accord or with his "encouragement" - actually gave him everything he wanted and/or needed in order to rule after the conflict.

If I were doing an MDF on this movie - and I'm not, Jim is, and thank God for him - Palpatine would have been the lynchpin of my argument.

 

[Mahoshonen]

The best thing to come out of Episode I was the board game: The Queen's Gambit.

Jim hit the high points of the film - the podrace and the Maul fight - but dropped the only character, not only in this film but in the entire trilogy, that had any intrigue or development whatsoever: Palpatine.

People argue over who, if anyone, is the protagonist in this and the other stories. Some even surmise Jar Jar. But it's not him, nor Anakin, nor Obi-Wan, it's Palpatine.

The real story of the trilogy is his elaborate machinations to elevate himself to power and to blunt the three main obstacles in his way: the Senate as a governing body, the lack of a military force to hold power, and the presence of the Jedi. And each movie highlights his triumph over each of these issues in turn.

People yawn and complain about the political aspects of the films, this one in particular, but what we're actually witnessing is Palpatine playing both sides against the middle: pushing the Trade Federation and other factions into dissension, while spearheading the Republic's efforts to thwart them. And every action people took - of their own accord or with his "encouragement" - actually gave him everything he wanted and/or needed in order to rule after the conflict.

If I were doing an MDF on this movie - and I'm not, Jim is, and thank God for him - Palpatine would have been the lynchpin of my argument.

No, no, no. Palpatine is a bad guy in a straightforward story about good and evil. You can't argue that the story is really about political manipulation if all the 'obstacles' are dumber than bricks. Imagine an Ocean's Eleven movie where George Clooney simply has to ask for all the money and gets it, no questions ask. And Palpatine is definitely not presented heroically or even as a tragic figure like Citizen Kane. If all these machinations were just to make him a cackling wizard, it begs the question as to what the point of being subtle was in the first place.

 

[JemJar]

Jar Jar was annoying but the kid was much much worse.

Fun fact : Jar Jar Binks hate doesn't start with the audience.

Seriously, go and watch Episode 1 again. Watch Jar-Jar's introduction as a character. You'll see that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, far from being the calm, friendly diplomats and negotiators that they could be, are basically arseholes to Jar-Jar. Do you know what Obi-Wan's first line to Jar-Jar is? "What is that?" Can anyone imagine, in a world where alien races are as common and as welcome as different colours of human skin, seeing someone with a slightly different skin colour and saying "What is that?". At the point of the Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan is basically a racist @#¤%.

Who was the main protagonist?

Do you really want to know?

The 'pro-te-gon-ist' is: Jar Jar Binks

Nah, watch the films again. For every trick, every scheme, every manipulation pulled by Senator/Emperor Palpatine, there's an equal. It's not Obi-Wan pulling the string. Not Yoda. Certainly not Jar-Jar.

It's R2-D2.

The Star Wars films are basically a galactic game of chess between R2 and Palpatine.

 

[TheSchaef]

No, no, no. Palpatine is a bad guy in a straightforward story about good and evil.

I didn't say he was the hero. I just said that all the events in the movie end up revolving around him manipulating his way into power. Even Anakin, who was supposed to be the parallel story to Luke, is just a means to someone else's end.

Anakin is only significant in the realm of character development, and only then inasmuch as he got a small amount of ham-handed development in a cast of characters who were all cardboard cutouts (Palpatine included).

Say what you want about the idiocy of others, but when it comes to having a story about a central character with specific goals and clear efforts to obtain them, Palpatine is the closest fit of anyone in the films.

 

[JemJar]

No, no, no. Palpatine is a bad guy in a straightforward story about good and evil.

I didn't say he was the hero. I just said that all the events in the movie end up revolving around him manipulating his way into power. Even Anakin, who was supposed to be the parallel story to Luke, is just a means to someone else's end.

Anakin is only significant in the realm of character development, and only then inasmuch as he got a small amount of ham-handed development in a cast of characters who were all cardboard cutouts (Palpatine included).

Say what you want about the idiocy of others, but when it comes to having a story about a central character with specific goals and clear efforts to obtain them, Palpatine is the closest fit of anyone in the films.

In fairness, the villain is the only character in many films to have specific goals and clear efforts to obtain them.

This is probably because the heroes are usually making efforts to maintain the status quo - which requires reacting to the villain's actions rather than pro-actively seeking to change the world.

By your logic, the main character of a James Bond movie is the villain, such as Scaramanga in The Man With The Golden Gun or Auric Goldfinger in Goldfinger or Dr No in Dr No. Oh wait. Shit.

 

[Neverhoodian]

The Phantom Menace is actually my father's favorite Star Wars film, and he saw the original trilogy in theaters back in the day. Make of that what you will. Of course, he's never been a huge Star Wars geek like I was.

I think The Phantom Menace is a great Star Wars film. It's a fun romp with lots of action, weird aliens and a cool looking villain. Hell, I even like Jar Jar Binks.

*Dodges tomato*

I'll admit the movie has flaws though, but it's not the points that are usually brought up:

1. Why didn't Qui-Gon try to take a more active role in disrupting the slave trade on Tatooine? I realize the Naboo blockade was important and all, but it seemed unusually callous for a seemingly compassionate Jedi Master to brush off Anakin's question about freeing slaves. He didn't even mention the issue during his talks with Chancellor Valorum or the Jedi Council.

2. I feel there was a missed opportunity to make the Trade Federation a far more sinister organization. There's vague allusions to a military crackdown, with "catastrophic" death tolls and camps of some sort, but we never get to actually see any of it. One of the reasons why I liked the game Battle for Naboo on the N64 so much is that it actually shows these events taking place. You see the Trade Federation razing villages and farms to the ground, slaughtering civilians, and rounding people up to work in what are essentially concentration camps. It adds a sense of urgency to Amidala's mission that's missing from the film, and it underlines the importance of defeating the Federation.

3. The whole "prophesy" and "virgin birth" thing has never sat well with me. Anakin may be a gifted Jedi and all, but he's not "Space Jesus." I rationalize it in my head that Shmi just didn't want to talk about the father, and Qui-Gon was gullible enough to believe her story.

4. Amidala's completely deadpan performance. To be fair though, it would be hard trying to emote when you're preoccupied with balancing a twenty pound headdress.

5. Why did the Trade Federation battle fleet leave the system, leaving just one droid control ship in charge of everything? Even if the Republic wasn't going to intervene with a fleet of Dreadnoughts, you'd think they'd still worry about the possibility of space pirates or something.

You'll notice "midichlorians" aren't on the list. That's because I have a relatively simple explanation for the whole thing:

The Jedi got it backwards. Midichlorians don't create the Force, the Force creates midichlorians. Boom, there you go. The Force is still a mystical thing and midichlorians are merely a by-product of said mysticism.

 

[WildFire15]

the entire Prequel trilogy seems to be some good to great ideas and scenes bobbing around in a sea of terrible plot with some horrendous characters. Anakin was a prat who really could have been shown better with a desire to be the hero rather then be obsessed over Padama and the fact it was the Jedi throwing the force out of balance (as there were millions of them and not even a handful of Sith) could have been more interesting. I'm sort of at least glad there was a grey-ish morality character like Mace Windu as supposed to ultra self-rightous goodness or savage bastard who wants to enslave or kill everything because why not?
Speaking of Attack of the Clones though, I thought it would have been an infinitely better movie if it exclusively followed Obi-wan, his investigation was genuinely interesting but was split up with badly written 'romance' and angst. Also yes, the Tartakovsky Clone Wars was freaking awesome.

 

[Pebkio]

A lot of the arguments made were based in: "It wasn't as bad as the other two". Yeah, sure, fine, it's not Attack of the Clones bad but it's still Phantom Menace bad. Just because it's not as terrible as we've seen doesn't mean it's any kind of good. Jar Jar Binks isn't the movie destroying entity some make him out to be, but that doesn't mean he's any good. The CGI wasn't shoved in our face in EVERY scene, but that doesn't mean it wasn't overused.

I will agree, though, that there are bits that I found enjoyable. And if viewed out of context, those bits would've been less enjoyable. But that's not enough to excuse a bad movie. The problem for me, and I guess it's my quirk, is the story. Constantly wondering "why the hell are they doing it THAT way" really removed any enjoyability.

 

[Strazdas]

Well, thats something.
And i see even gamers are going around "omg cgi is evil". kind of ironic isnt it?

 

[TheSchaef]

By your logic, the main character of a James Bond movie is the villain, such as Scaramanga in The Man With The Golden Gun or Auric Goldfinger in Goldfinger or Dr No in Dr No. Oh wait. Shit.

Like Batman, the flavor is found in the villains and the hero is an idealized template on which we project our fantasies.

Except in the prequel Star Wars, we didn't have that template. We had Qui-Gonn AND Obi-Wan AND Anakin, none of which carried us through the entire narrative like an Superman movie, nor formed a solid ensemble like an X-Men or Avengers movie. Ostensibly it was supposed to be about Anakin but he was a minor character in the first film, and undeveloped and unsympathetic in the second film. His conversion was supposed to be a shocking betrayal which could be seen as a culmination of previous developments which only make sense now when it all comes together, like the end of Sixth Sense. Instead, all we really have is that he loves his wife and misses his mommy.

So lacking someone on which we can project our own ideals, and lacking someone with enough character to make us care about their goals and choices, we're left with only one character who developed over the course of the trilogy and who accomplished something that moved the story to its conclusion: Palpatine.

Heroes are reactive, yes, but they find themselves at cross purposes with the primary antagonist. But nobody knew who or what Palpatine was, and every major villain they faced was a front man masking his presence. There was nobody working against his plan, because his plan was to divide the galaxy into two sides and pit them against each other. Those serving the Separatists were sowing rebellion, and those serving the Republic were empowering him. He then killed everyone in a position to oppose him, either before or just as they discovered who he was. Among those who even tried, he killed Windu at Anakin's betrayal, defeated Yoda in single combat, and saved Anakin who Obi-Wan, in his mercy, failed to kill.

That's the main reason I name Palpatine the protagonist: we had stories about a). a trade dispute we were supposed to care about because of reasons, b). civil war in the Republic, and c). the tragic story of Anakin, but the fact that they were all conjured by Palpatine for reasons no one else realized, basically renders all the weight of those stories moot; none of them were the actual story of what was happening, and thus none of them unto themselves actually mattered in the end.

Don't take that to mean I believe this is a very crafty subversion of type or bold new direction in storytelling; I think it is shabby storytelling that gave us Goldfinger but no Bond, Sauron but no Frodo. If the story's not about Bond, then by default it degenerates into a story about Goldfinger. Especially if Goldfinger wins, flawless victory, fatality.

 

[JemJar]

Heroes are reactive, yes, but they find themselves at cross purposes with the primary antagonist. But nobody knew who or what Palpatine was, and every major villain they faced was a front man masking his presence. There was nobody working against his plan, because his plan was to divide the galaxy into two sides and pit them against each other. Those serving the Separatists were sowing rebellion, and those serving the Republic were empowering him. He then killed everyone in a position to oppose him, either before or just as they discovered who he was. Among those who even tried, he killed Windu at Anakin's betrayal, defeated Yoda in single combat, and saved Anakin who Obi-Wan, in his mercy, failed to kill.

That's the main reason I name Palpatine the protagonist: we had stories about a). a trade dispute we were supposed to care about because of reasons, b). civil war in the Republic, and c). the tragic story of Anakin, but the fact that they were all conjured by Palpatine for reasons no one else realized, basically renders all the weight of those stories moot; none of them were the actual story of what was happening, and thus none of them unto themselves actually mattered in the end.

There are plenty of films and stories in which the heroes are up against a mere front man for significant portions of the narrative. I can think of at least one in the cinema right now, but I'm not sure I'd consider the main villain in said film to be the protagonist.

Nonetheless, it's an argument very well made and there's huge chunks I agree with.

There is an alternative, very tongue-in-cheek, theory:

R2-D2.

Seriously. Go back and watch the six films and assume that R2 is a super-intelligent AI. Star Wars becomes a galactic-scale game of chess between Palpatine and R2-D2.

He influences huge amounts of the series, ensuring the heroes escape Naboo in Ep1 but conveniently not fixing the hyperdrive so they have to land at Tatooine and pick up Anakin. He then destroys the Trade Federation mothership (don't be fooled into the false belief that Anakin did that) and gets himself into a position to keep track of the political situation in the Senate. He even saves Padmé in the Droid Factory in Ep2 and ensures Anakin and Obi-Wan take out Dooku in Ep3.

R2-D2 spends the inter-trilogy years overseeing the upbringing of Leia, then "coincidentally" gets sent down to Tatooine where he "finds" Luke and Obi-Wan. Yeah right. Pull the other one, it's got rocket boosters on. If you listen really carefully during the Death Star trench run, just after Obi-Wan's ghost/astral projection says "Use the Force, Luke", you can hear R2 whistling "Or maybe I'll just run the targeting computer myself you crusty old shaman".

And then he somehow crash lands an X-Wing in the swamp. A swamp he can happily travel around in, rather than something perilously sticky and viscous. Right near to Yoda's home. Come on? How can anyone think that any of this stuff is coincidence?

----

Hey, I didn't say it was a good theory, but it is a theory..

 

[Mahoshonen]

No, no, no. Palpatine is a bad guy in a straightforward story about good and evil.

I didn't say he was the hero. I just said that all the events in the movie end up revolving around him manipulating his way into power. Even Anakin, who was supposed to be the parallel story to Luke, is just a means to someone else's end.

Anakin is only significant in the realm of character development, and only then inasmuch as he got a small amount of ham-handed development in a cast of characters who were all cardboard cutouts (Palpatine included).

Say what you want about the idiocy of others, but when it comes to having a story about a central character with specific goals and clear efforts to obtain them, Palpatine is the closest fit of anyone in the films.

Here's the problem with saying "Palpatine is the main character of the prequel trilogy." The action doesn't focus on P-Diddy as a part of the plot until the 2nd half of Ep3. He's shown giving orders as Sideous while 'manipulating' Queen Amidala (in the same manner one manipulates a door knob to open a door) in the Senate. In Ep2 P-diddy interacts with Anakin to show that they're friends (note that how they became friends is not shown, despite that being an important part of Anakin's downfall, which is obstensibly the focus being marketed) and tricking Jar Jar into getting him special powers. Which for some reason works.

In both movies we're never shown that there's any challange, which are necessary to make a lead complelling. To see an example of this, watch the Japanese B-Movie Prince of Space. The hero frequently boasts that the bad guy's weapons cannot hurt him, and it kills the tension.

Also important is that while the story suggests a political drama, what's on the majority of the fim is swashbuckling adventure. And what's on film should be what's driving the plot. I'll agree that Palpatine is the prime motivator of what's happening, but that alone does not make him the lead.

 

[Orekoya]

I love this series, but it sucks that episodes are bi-weekly. Maybe he should fill those gaps with Movie Attack Force where he rips apart the overly critically acclaimed movies that society thought was good.

 

[TheSchaef]

There is an alternative, very tongue-in-cheek, theory:

R2-D2.

Seriously. Go back and watch the six films and assume that R2 is a super-intelligent AI. Star Wars becomes a galactic-scale game of chess between Palpatine and R2-D2.

That's not a protagonist, that's a plot device. Kind of like how Spock was in half the old Star Trek episodes.

Also important is that while the story suggests a political drama, what's on the majority of the fim is swashbuckling adventure. And what's on film should be what's driving the plot. I'll agree that Palpatine is the prime motivator of what's happening, but that alone does not make him the lead.

Again, I did not say it was an example of good storytelling. I only said that in the end, the only narrative that mattered over the course of the trilogy was that of Palpatine.

 

[Arakasi]

You know what? I liked them all. The only one I felt was a let down was the 3rd one, and even then the only weakness was Angsikin Skywalker. I don't know how they could have done it differently, but it felt very Spiderman 3-ish.