MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy

[Pandabearparade]

The whole point is that the uproar is being cause by those selfish tards who are acting like they are -legally- owed something.

That's simply not true. -One- person filed a legal complaint, and if you check the Bioware forums where the Retake movement is primarily located you'll see that they overwhelmingly disapprove of that action.

Demanding changes for free,

As to demanding changes for free, they are entirely within their rights to do so, and they aren't 'entitled' until they start thinking they can take legal action and force Bioware to do it.

A customer telling a company "Do this or you will lose my business." is not entitled. They're a consumer stating their expectations, and that's entirely reasonable.

 

[Limecake]

Demanding changes for free,

As to demanding changes for free, they are entirely within their rights to do so, and they aren't 'entitled' until they start thinking they can take legal action and force Bioware to do it.

A customer telling a company "Do this or you will lose my business." is not entitled. They're a consumer stating their expectations, and that's entirely reasonable.

I think the 'free' aspect is where there is going to be issue, Basically you are telling dozens of people to do their job and not get paid for it.

I don't know about you but if a customer were to tell me "Do this or you'll lose my business" I would honestly consider just losing their business. If your loyalty is in such a tenuous spot that 10 minutes of cinematics will make you never buy from my company again it might just not be worth trying to please you.

The cupcake protest would sit better with me, it was light hearted but it got the message across. I just think calling Bioware names and implying that anyone who isn't up in arms over ME3 is a 'Biodrone' is quite possibly the worst way to go about it.

 

[Pandabearparade]

I think the 'free' aspect is where there is going to be issue, Basically you are telling dozens of people to do their job and not get paid for it.

I'm not telling them to do anything, actually. I'm just trying to make the retake position a bit clearer, since Bob and his fanboys clearly haven't taken ten minutes to look into the issue before they decide what they think about it and start yelling. At their most extreme, they're demanding something for free or else their business will be lost, but -most- of them are just demanding an ending that they are entirely willing to pay for. I'm just saying that morally correct or not it is not entitled to threaten to take your business elsewhere if a company doesn't meet your demands, however unreasonable your demands might be.

I don't know about you but if a customer were to tell me "Do this or you'll lose my business" I would honestly consider just losing their business.

Same here, depending on the validity of the demand and the number of people making it.

I think the demand is entirely reasonable. Ignoring the fact that the entire trilogy was built around the idea of choice and consequence, they set specific expectations pre-release (there is a thread with all the quotes on the Bioware forums) and then failed to meet them.

It's also a very large segment of the fanbase that is angry, don't let the 'vocal minority' nonsense fool you. They wouldn't put out several press statements if there weren't a -lot- of people pissed. Combining the fact that the demand is reasonable and the number of fans they risk losing a reasonable company should at least consider meeting the demands.

If your loyalty is in such a tenuous spot that 10 minutes of cinematics will make you never buy from my company again it might just not be worth trying to please you.

The 10 minutes in question are the most important ten minutes of the entire trilogy, and it got botched horribly. If someone invests a lot of time and emotion (and I -didn't-, to be clear, I don't give half a 747 flying fuck about any of my crew, besides Tali) into your story, it's not unreasonable for them to voice their outrage and demand better if the end is a trainwreck.

 

[zeda12123]

Did he even actually play the game?
The thing is there wasn't even an ending, the game just stopped. Lots of questions, no answers, Hudson is a jackass and I think we deserve closure.

 

[370999]

Did he even actually play the game?
The thing is there wasn't even an ending, the game just stopped. Lots of questions, no answers, Hudson is a jackass and I think we deserve closure.

No he didn't. He mentions that in his Game Overthinker bit.

 

[Sanguinedragon]

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

This right here is my problem. There was never an artistic vision at play. Typically, someone basing art on, and tying art to the works of another, or even their own previous work, will have the respect for the material not to openly make it null and void or to simply conflict with it out right. But the fact that they're pulling some sort of "It's art!" card as a cheap transparent defense does nobody any good. It cheapens the worth of ACTUAL art when they use it to cover their asses.

So you don't believe video games are art? I ask because I've spent a 30 page research thesis defending games as art, so that aspect matters to me. Either way, you're paying them more money to give you what you deserved all along. If you don't believe games are art, you can at least admit the business practice is shady at best, no?

Some games can be art ICO/ Shadow of the Colossus some are not and some are a mix. Just liek some movies are art films (usually doing very poorly at the box office) some are actiony popcorn flicks. You can't just paint a giant "IT'S ART" over the whole medium. Cause not all of it is.

That's fine, but you're missing the point. Even if you forget that games are art and artistic integrity doesn't matter to you, the player has no ownership over the game itself, and they are not entitled to anything more than what they pay for. One has the right to hate the ending and refuse to give Bioware any more of your money if you are this outraged; one does not, however, "deserve better", nor does one have the right to force Bioware into remaking the ending because they didn't like it.

Also, I would bet even the most angry of Mass Effect fans right now would like to speak with you outside if you are insinuating that Mass Effect is not a game that has achieved great artistic merit.

You won't find more of a mass effect fan then me and I understand that you did a thesis and are invested in proving your "games are art theory" But I did NOT get what I paid for. So you know what? I can demand all I want and yes I and the other fans/players/customers DESERVE better.

 

[Sanguinedragon]

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

Bioware didn't get into games to make art they got into games to make money.
Also, this ending wasn't "the teams vision!!" it was 2 guys who made it with no input from the team, kinda defeats your biowares vision statement.

You are stating alleged rumors as fact; I would appreciate it if you didn't do that. Also, Bioware as a singular entity is a business, the people that went into this business and dedicated their lives towards creating this series would probably view their games as art, at least given their many statements on the subject.

I would apreciate you not using your thesis as proof games are art. I would apreciate a better ending then what we got, sadly we may all be disappointed. I have yet to see any rumor or "fact " that contradicts the leaked info that the team had little to do with the ending. Their many statements? lol... how botu their many statements before the game came out? We are supposed to ignore those statements but accept the newer ones??

 

[Awexsome]

The whole point is that the uproar is being cause by those selfish tards who are acting like they are -legally- owed something.

That's simply not true. -One- person filed a legal complaint, and if you check the Bioware forums where the Retake movement is primarily located you'll see that they overwhelmingly disapprove of that action.

Demanding changes for free,

As to demanding changes for free, they are entirely within their rights to do so, and they aren't 'entitled' until they start thinking they can take legal action and force Bioware to do it.

A customer telling a company "Do this or you will lose my business." is not entitled. They're a consumer stating their expectations, and that's entirely reasonable.

Yeah, within their rights to complain this much about a game. They're perfectly within their rights to be annoying, terrible, ungrateful people trying to change the game to their wants. Within their rights, but not right in doing so.

 

[Falcon123]

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

This right here is my problem. There was never an artistic vision at play. Typically, someone basing art on, and tying art to the works of another, or even their own previous work, will have the respect for the material not to openly make it null and void or to simply conflict with it out right. But the fact that they're pulling some sort of "It's art!" card as a cheap transparent defense does nobody any good. It cheapens the worth of ACTUAL art when they use it to cover their asses.

So you don't believe video games are art? I ask because I've spent a 30 page research thesis defending games as art, so that aspect matters to me. Either way, you're paying them more money to give you what you deserved all along. If you don't believe games are art, you can at least admit the business practice is shady at best, no?

Some games can be art ICO/ Shadow of the Colossus some are not and some are a mix. Just liek some movies are art films (usually doing very poorly at the box office) some are actiony popcorn flicks. You can't just paint a giant "IT'S ART" over the whole medium. Cause not all of it is.

That's fine, but you're missing the point. Even if you forget that games are art and artistic integrity doesn't matter to you, the player has no ownership over the game itself, and they are not entitled to anything more than what they pay for. One has the right to hate the ending and refuse to give Bioware any more of your money if you are this outraged; one does not, however, "deserve better", nor does one have the right to force Bioware into remaking the ending because they didn't like it.

Also, I would bet even the most angry of Mass Effect fans right now would like to speak with you outside if you are insinuating that Mass Effect is not a game that has achieved great artistic merit.

You won't find more of a mass effect fan then me and I understand that you did a thesis and are invested in proving your "games are art theory" But I did NOT get what I paid for. So you know what? I can demand all I want and yes I and the other fans/players/customers DESERVE better.

Yes you did. You paid for Mass Effect 3. You got it. You didn't like it. That happens sometimes. Not everything is good.

You don't deserve anything. You didn't make the game. You didn't write the script. You did absolutely nothing to "deserve" anything. You chose to give them your money. You chose to make the purchase. They didn't make you. So stop complaining like you were betrayed because you weren't. They made a decision on the ending. You didn't like it. You explained why. You're within your rights to complain. But that's where your rights end.

 

[Falcon123]

I fail to see why it must be a sacrifice of artistic integrity to re-write an ending. We would never grow as a society if no-one paid any attention to criticism.

It's not that they're re-writing the ending. Fallout 3 rewrote the ending and it wasn't a big deal. The problem is that they're re-writing the ending to meet others demands instead of their own vision, and that's not what art is about. People are telling Bioware how to do their job, and instead of standing up for their game, right or wrong (see Lucas, George for a equivalent demand in cinema), they caved. That's the sacrifice of artistic integrity. They're not doing it for themselves or their own vision, but merely to make a profit. That's what products do. That's not art.

Bioware didn't get into games to make art they got into games to make money.
Also, this ending wasn't "the teams vision!!" it was 2 guys who made it with no input from the team, kinda defeats your biowares vision statement.

You are stating alleged rumors as fact; I would appreciate it if you didn't do that. Also, Bioware as a singular entity is a business, the people that went into this business and dedicated their lives towards creating this series would probably view their games as art, at least given their many statements on the subject.

I would apreciate you not using your thesis as proof games are art. I would apreciate a better ending then what we got, sadly we may all be disappointed. I have yet to see any rumor or "fact " that contradicts the leaked info that the team had little to do with the ending. Their many statements? lol... how botu their many statements before the game came out? We are supposed to ignore those statements but accept the newer ones??

I haven't given you my thesis, or used anything from it to justify video games as art. I just said they are and that it matters to me that they are, so I'm not sure what your first sentence means.

As for the rest of your post, not everyone is disappointed, and those that aren't aren't wrong. There was no way to make an ending that makes everyone happy.. Bioware did their best, and everything i've seen from their camp implies that this level of hatred and anger has left them genuinely shocked because they cared about this game and never wanted to let people down. Are their problems with it? Sure, but that doesn't mean that it's the worst thing ever and ruins 90+ hours of gameplay as you're making it out to be.

Also, two very different types of statements in discussion here. Games develop and change over the course of a development cycle, so things that were promised are sometimes scrapped and other elements change at the last minute. That's why interviews are all speculative and not treated as actual advertisements (despite a few people on this forum that choose to ignore that fact). The goals of the developers, however, aren't speculative; it's a vision that carries with them throughout the entire process and is a constant in their efforts.

Regardless of whether games are art or not, it doesn't change the fact that no one here "deserves" anything! You hate the ending? I understand and I sympathize. I was let down too. But seriously, you have no right to say you deserve better. Vote with your wallet. Protest Bioware if you must. But people who are trying to "Retake" something that is not theirs is rather ridiculous

 

[Falcon123]

Bioware shouldn't cave to those entitled [snip]

'Entitled' is just a word shills throw at fans who have standards and an expectation of quality in a product.

That's what it is, a product. It can be art too, but games are developed primarily to make money with artistic vision in a distant ninth or tenth place on the priority meter. The word 'entitled' would only apply if detractors felt that they are -legally- owed something. So long as no force is used people are allowed to want/demand/clamor for anything they fucking want.

That said, Bioware is under no obligation to listen or give a fuck what the fans want.

I should clear this up. The people at whom the phrase "entitled" is directed are not the people who believed the ending did not meet expectations. There are people filing complaints with the FTC and trying to "Retake" something that was not rightfully theirs. Most of the people complaining about ME3 are not entitled, just like most of those on the other side don't blame people for hating the ending. It's the vocal minority that seems to think they "deserve" better that are at fault here.

 

[Pandabearparade]

They're perfectly within their rights to be annoying, terrible, ungrateful people

Ungrateful? Bioware isn't handing out game gifts to poor children on Christmas day, they're a company selling a product in an attempt to make a profit. There is nothing wrong with that, but let's not treat them like they're beyond criticism and the people telling them their expectations have not been met and that they want the problem fixed aren't 'terrible people' for doing so.

 

[Pandabearparade]

There are people filing complaints with the FTC

Which is ridiculous. Most people agree with that.

and trying to "Retake" something that was not rightfully theirs.

That's just semantics. Calling it the 'retake' movement was a bad call, but nothing in their mission statement suggests they think they 'own' the rights to Mass Effect.

 

[wintercoat]

There are people filing complaints with the FTC

Which is ridiculous. Most people agree with that.

and trying to "Retake" something that was not rightfully theirs.

That's just semantics. Calling it the 'retake' movement was a bad call, but nothing in their mission statement suggests they think they 'own' the rights to Mass Effect.

Why is it ridiculous? You don't really think that this is the first time a complaint has been filed against a video game company...do you? Or that it's an especially rare occurrence? They're a business. The likelihood that they don't receive complaints of this nature sometimes is more than likely small. But for some reason, people keep harping on it like it's a faux pas to file a grievance against a multi-million dollar corporation.

 

[Pandabearparade]

people keep harping on it like it's a faux pas to file a grievance against a multi-million dollar corporation.

It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that merits Federal attention. It's a bad ending, not something outright illegal. It isn't that it's a game company, the government should have fined the shit out of EA for promising people free copies of Battlefield 1942 and then backing out of the deal without telling anyone until after the fact.

 

[zeda12123]

people keep harping on it like it's a faux pas to file a grievance against a multi-million dollar corporation.

It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that merits Federal attention. It's a bad ending, not something outright illegal. It isn't that it's a game company, the government should have fined the shit out of EA for promising people free copies of Battlefield 1942 and then backing out of the deal without telling anyone until after the fact.

There will always be someone who takes it too far no matter what it is. This one just happened to be far too extreme, most of us recognize that.
Personally I found that the child's play donations were a pretty classy way to protest and we should see more things like that than death threats.

 

[Falcon123]

There are people filing complaints with the FTC

Which is ridiculous. Most people agree with that.

and trying to "Retake" something that was not rightfully theirs.

That's just semantics. Calling it the 'retake' movement was a bad call, but nothing in their mission statement suggests they think they 'own' the rights to Mass Effect.

If the response to your post made by wintercoat hasn't made it clear, I'll just say that I've gotten in several arguments with people who DO tink its okay to file complaints with the FTC and who are trying to claim ownership. That's what all the journalists are writing against, and that's why there's been a harsh backlash to people complaining about the ending. The vocal minority of idiots on both sides have made it impossible to press on, unfortunately...