samsonguy920 said:
If this guy had the spine and brains he likes to claim he does, he would put himself in a room with one of his opponents and try to explain his reasons that way. And then see how well he does defending them in the debate.
But you know he won't, because he has nothing to back his claims short of imagined figures, and too much fear that the skeletons in his closet will get out in the light of day. He knows the MPAA has already crossed the line as far as copyright law on their own side, with their own blatant breaches as well as their stepping on fair use. If this were allowed to become a true forum for debate instead of attempts at steamrolling bills through Congress, people would very quickly discover that small-time piracy pales in the shadow of the MPAA's and the RIAA's own crimes.
Therumancer said:
Yes, that is very true today as far as where China stands. The only solution to stop that, though, is for the US and other western countries to embargo goods from China. Any government leader who proposed that idea would swiftly get taken out of office by any conglomerate of corporations who are making money hand over fist because of their outsourcing to China of manufacturing and shipping. India is benefiting just as much because of that.
Part of the issue with that is the US, among others, is swiftly going to a sole service-oriented industry. People don't want to have to break a sweat working in a factory line all day. They want an easy cubicle or counter job and then hit the fast food and super-department stores after for their shiny gadgets and food that they don't care where is from. And then go home to their internet and digital satellite/cable to finish their day.
If you need an example of why this is true, then you need only look to Detroit and ask why that city is a wasteland. People complain about illegal immigration and yet they don't step forward to work the jobs that the immigrants are more than willing to take on, regardless of how long those citizens have been out of work and living on welfare.
Don't blame China for destroying our economy or being the worst player in the piracy affair. China is merely filling a niche that we see fit to open up with our demands of more entertainment, more bling, more techy gadgets, and all of it cheaper. I think that merely falls into the category of good business.
And China isn't so eager for war, as they have too many economical allies who would be alienated by that. It has come to a point today where a world war would destroy so much that corporations would do anything they can to prevent it. Instead smaller wars such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and such are encouraged to create certain needs as well as burn off steam that would otherwise build up until too many countries ended up involved. It is true that China has the largest army in the world, but it isn't the best trained army, and most of it would be used as cannon fodder in any exchange.
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Alfred pay a high price for the victory. This was a major factor that led to the Saxon King
AlfredHarold losing the battle against the Norman William. When William made his bid to take over England, he did it with a smaller contingent of troops than what
AlfredHarold had. But through poor policy decisions and not enough funding to military training,
AlfredHarold Godwinson put himself at a position to lose long before the vikings even invaded.
China does have the largest army, yes. But they don't have the best training, nor ideal facilities for their soldiers. They are also focused on improving their economic ties to build their trading and manufacturing, which takes money away from their military budget. That is something that can not change overnight.
I don't worry so much about China. What I worry more about is the apathy and avarice the West builds upon to the point where things such as intellectual property are more important than human and civil rights. And we only have ourselves to blame.
Hmm, some trouble snipping that so sorry about the uber-quote
As far as the issue with the MPAA, and RIAA goes, your correct to a great degree. The current system DOES present a problem in that it heavily favors corperate interests and those with the money to pursue things on a political and legal level. The old crack about how "I can't afford a lobbyist" very much holds true in this sector as well as politics in general.
However it's a hard issue to fix because things like theft DO need regulation, and the criminals who present a problem are ALWAYS going to outnumber the businessmen, before you even get into the ordinary people and their interests who vastly outnumber both. It's like the old jibe that "all the mice vote to bell the cat" which pretty much summarizes the problem with representation by the numbers and why the US isn't a true democracy. If the businessmen WERE forced onto a truely level playing field, it would destroy everything as they would be outnumbered by people who would of course support being able to take everything for themselves for free, and we really can't have business where that becomes true.
The problem is in finding a way to weight things so that businesses are protected, but also can't exploit the system for their own continued profit, as opposed to simply using it defensively.
In short I don't think an "open forum" as you present it would work, because these guys would get ripped to shreds, and while the individuals in question might deserve it there are bigger issues at stake.
Ultimatly I tend to feel that the solution isn't really one to be gained through the system, but in changing how it works through some rather clare declarations. I'm of the opinion that what we need is something akin to a bill of rights for consumers, that includes things like the right to own the property they pay for, and puts an end to all of this EULA-liscencing garbage and forces a lot more responsibility onto the companies in providing value in the digital age. Something they oppose for profit oriented reasons, and can prevent through the system which is why it needs to be stopped, even if the system isn't inherantly bad. We basically need updates and limitations, not a rule by the mob (which is what it sounds like your advocating).
I'm pretty much opposed to the industry and their attitudes involving the rights of consumers, but at the same time I do feel piracy is wrong, and don't think legalizing media piracy, which is wha happens if you go entirely the other way, is the right direction to go in, and that's what you'd happen if things were truely balanced given the numbers on both sides. People will always vote to give themselves what benefits them right now, the long term, and repercussions, be damned.
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As far as China goes I disagree with you because of the demand for their products, China has enough of a market througout the world, and enough demand for their product, that embargos are going to be pointless unless backed by the military in the sense of destroying every trade ship or plane that leaves China, which starts a war anyway.
In general Embargos only work when your dealing with a small, weak country with limited options. China is none of those things at this stage in the game. Decades ago that might have worked, but decades ago we also felt that the current arrangement with them was going to wind up reforming their society.
The whole "golden age of piracy" with major nations hiring privateers and mercenaries to raid each other's shipping was basically the result of powerful nations basically trying to embargo each other and control trade and the flow of goods on their terms.
You vastly underestimate the rising power of the Chinese military which is why things are time sensitive. They are already producing submarines powerful enough to compete with ours, having done things like tagging a US submarine (look up the Kittyhawke incident, and Chinese Yuan Class submarine). This is why it would be a big deal since they would defend their shipping.
Right now we have an advantage on China and could win, which is why I am so aggressive, but time plays to them, and we'll lose all tha advantages we have now and ultimatly will wind up being unable to beat them.
Your points about relative power don't consider that things won't stay static forever, and the idea is to attack when we can stll be assured we're going to win.
As far as their plans go, you are incorrect, even if that is the popular version of things. Basically we hoped that by ignoring China's patent thefts and such and letting them "loan" us money to cover lost tax revenues that what your talking about would happen. Wealth would trickle down to the lower classes, who would become more capable, and demand more, the sweatshops would no longer be viable, and China would play by the rules as it began to innovate products it would want protected.
In reality what happened was China decided to take that money, feed it into their military, and crack down on the population to keep the sweatshops and patent thefts going so it could make more money for the military. When it comes to really looking at the Chinese in the sense of "we need to actually do something" people tend to forget about conditions down there, how SARS got started, or the Chinese military build ups. That's the problem with the whole "peace at any price" movement. As soon as it comes to identifying a threat and taking action people want to portray the other side as a bunch of progressive economists... which is hardly the case.
I've done a lot of reading on China for a long time, and didn't start going off about these extreme actions for no reason. There is tons of information out there about them blinding US satellites with ground based missle systems, increasing their abillity to project their military power, developing a military space program, and wanting to colonize other countries to spread out it's population. While covered in the mainstream media it's rarely mentioned for long, but you can find all of it if you look (and I've presented a number of links though various messages, over the years... and you can find a lot of suff on your own with some quick digging for things like "Chinese Anti-Satellite Lasers", "Yuan Class Submarine", "Chinese Kitty Hawke incident", "China's Theft Of US Missle Guidance Systems", and tons of other stuff). Heck, one of the big incidents BEFORE 9/11 was how China was engaged in air piracy, it basically intercepted a US military plane over international waters, forced it to land in China, and then proceeded to go digging through it for technology. They freed the hostages, and we claim they didn't get any tech, but if checking a few years later you'll notice China's airforce seems to be producing some substnaitally more effective aeronautic systems.
See if the US wasn't so bloody moral and peaceful, we'd have already gone to war with China, they have done like a dozen things which would be an act of war for just about any other country. The fact that we keep turning the other cheek is exactly why they keep pushing, and one of the big reasons why the US has such problems internationally and is losing so much force. Nobody is afraid of the dominant military power if it's afraid to use it's military. Politically correct police actions like "The War On Terror" don't scare major nations, when they see nations like China getting away with bending you over, and not even being polite enough to get some lube.
I understand where your coming from, and why you think what you do, I just happen to think your wrong. We're beyond the point of an embargo, all that would do, even if coordinated, would be another "do nothing" solution intended to avoid the bottom line.
People need to understand that the old analysis of "meh the money we owe China doesn't matter because they could never collect, and it was all buying us off anyway and they respect that" and "Well China has a huge military, but it doesn't have the navy to project that military and get it anywhere outside of their borders" and worse yet the idea that China doesn't have much in the way of military tech at all when it's producing stuff as good as ours even if it doesn't have a lot of it yet (using technology they stole from us largely).
I know we'll wind up having to agree to disagree, but I think people need to face reality. Sadly it will probably come too late because it's a very ugly reality that winds up running counter to everything we want to believe about how the world can work, and the complete failure of left wing morality on international relations.
