Multiple Xbox one packages, includes a Kinect free version rumour

[Genocidicles]

Why don't you wait for the games to actually come out and see how they use natural user interface before you judge?

Well if the original Kinect is any indication, it's going to suck.

Plus, a lot of people want to relax whilst gaming instead of flailing their arms around like a spastic chimp, so the only potential application Kinect has for them is the voice control, which could easily be handled by a headset instead of a $100 spy-cam.

 

[UnnDunn]

Why don't you wait for the games to actually come out and see how they use natural user interface before you judge?

Well if the original Kinect is any indication, it's going to suck.

Plus, a lot of people want to relax whilst gaming instead of flailing their arms around like a spastic chimp, so the only potential application Kinect has for them is the voice control, which could easily be handled by a headset instead of a $100 spy-cam.

It's unfortunate that the only use-cases you can come up with for natural user interface are "flailing your arms around like a spastic chimp" and "voice commands". Thankfully, professional game designers are a lot more creative than you are.

 

[Genocidicles]

Thankfully, professional game designers are a lot more creative than you are.

They sure are.

Wow! That looks so much more intuitive than using a controller!

 

[GoaThief]

[No. Just no. This is a gross misrepresentation of how it will work.

I really don't think it is, there are huge privacy concerns and rightfully so. Just look at the latest dashboard beta, you give the right for MS to keep all your bing searches alongside your personal information forever, and they can do whatever they like with the data. Oh yes, not only does it apply to the beta but when you are done everything will continue to be logged for whatever purposes they desire until the end of time as you agreed to it. Final kicker? You can have someone else commit you to all those terms and conditions without you even reading it or knowing about it if yourgamertag is on the same console.

So no, I don't think it's massively incorrect to assume MS will do something along those lines. What's the odds that Kinect "powered by bing" will be the Trojan that allows them to monitor and record whatever the hell they like. I own the first generation Kinect and had some fun with it, but I want it optional and I want my rights and privacy respected. As such, the Xbone can fuck right off until the mandatory Kinect is no more and various assurances have been given regarding my concerns. Don't forget MS inadvertently revealed that Kinect can indeed be used as a spying device in a recent press release.

 

[TelHybrid]

Kinect free would be a terrible idea. Kinect is innately full of potential, especially with the hardware upgrades in the Xbone version. There's so much cool stuff that can be done with it.

The problem is the current kinect is an add-on, so less developers are inclined to develop for it than simply developing for the console's standard equipment, e.g. Wii's remote, or Wii-U's tablet.

As for "they're spying on you"... I don't think watching us playing video games is really of anyone's interest.

 

[UnnDunn]

.

[No. Just no. This is a gross misrepresentation of how it will work.

I really don't think it is, there are huge privacy concerns and rightfully so. Just look at the latest dashboard beta, you give the right for MS to keep all your bing searches alongside your personal information forever, and they can do whatever they like with the data. Oh yes, not only does it apply to the beta but when you are done everything will continue to be logged for whatever purposes they desire until the end of time as you agreed to it. Final kicker? You can have someone else commit you to all those terms and conditions without you even reading it or knowing about it if yourgamertag is on the same console.

So no, I don't think it's massively incorrect to assume MS will do something along those lines. What's the odds that Kinect "powered by bing" will be the Trojan that allows them to monitor and record whatever the hell they like. I own the first generation Kinect and had some fun with it, but I want it optional and I want my rights and privacy respected. As such, the Xbone can fuck right off until the mandatory Kinect is no more and various assurances have been given regarding my concerns. Don't forget MS inadvertently revealed that Kinect can indeed be used as a spying device in a recent press release.

You, sir, are paranoid. I participate in the dashboard preview, and one does not have to agree to any additional terms and conditions beyond the standard NDA. Microsoft did not reveal the sensor "can be used as a spying device"; in fact, they stressed the exact opposite [http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/privacy].

 

[GoaThief]

You, sir, are paranoid. I participate in the dashboard preview, and one does not have to agree to any additional terms and conditions beyond the standard NDA.

Congratulations on entering a legal contract without knowing what it is you're exactly agreeing to.

As you're in the program, why don't you post the t&c you agreed to and I'll gladly point it out, it's why I refused to participate. I couldn't find the contact online sadly so you'll have to provide it.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Here's what I don't understand about the Xbone's Kinect integration: Do I need to use Kinect for any current-gen interface actions like basic menu navigation? Do I have to use the Kinect every time I fire up the console even if I'd rather not be speaking/moving around?

If the answer to these questions is no, and I can in fact operate the Xbone in the same traditional fashion as current-gen consoles, why can't I turn off the Kinect whenever I feel like it? Why does it have to be on and listening/watching whenever the console is on if I'm not intent on using Kinect's functionality?

They haven't shown a willingness to develop legitimately interesting play mechanics for the Kinect to this point. I have no interest in controlling my television or navigating menus with my voice/arms. What's left for this device to do, then? And if there's nothing else worth mentioning, why should I pay another $100 for it?

Microsoft has done a lot right lately. Yes, most of it was simple backtracking, but I appreciate the self-awareness. They stopped with the 24-hour check ins and the license model. They're fixing indie self-publishing. The only remaining hang-up, for me, is the Kinect + ads all over the dashboard combo. If they can either make the Kinect truly worthwhile OR offer me a package that doesn't feature one at all, I'll probably stop hating on the console entirely.

 

[GoaThief]

Forgot to add, it's not just me who noticed the invasive t&c on the beta: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.821011-Xbox-360-beta-program

 

[UnnDunn]

You, sir, are paranoid. I participate in the dashboard preview, and one does not have to agree to any additional terms and conditions beyond the standard NDA.

Congratulations on entering a legal contract without knowing what it is you're exactly agreeing to.

As you're in the program, why don't you post the t&c you agreed to and I'll gladly point it out, it's why I refused to participate. I couldn't find the contact online sadly so you'll have to provide it.

I know exactly what I agreed to, thank you very much. You're the one making the claim; the burden of proof is on you.

 

[GoaThief]

You, sir, are paranoid. I participate in the dashboard preview, and one does not have to agree to any additional terms and conditions beyond the standard NDA.

Congratulations on entering a legal contract without knowing what it is you're exactly agreeing to.

As you're in the program, why don't you post the t&c you agreed to and I'll gladly point it out, it's why I refused to participate. I couldn't find the contact online sadly so you'll have to provide it.

I know exactly what I agreed to, thank you very much. You're the one making the claim; the burden of proof is on you.

No, you clearly don't know.

As above, I'm not the only one to notice it, as sign ups are now closed I cannot copy the t&c. You can however as you are part of the beta, I will gladly show the offending legalese if you could kindly copy and paste them here. Failure to do so just implies that you know we are right and are reluctant to concede that you signed away your data without realising. It's easy to do sadly so don't feel too bad. Just be mindful of the data you enter into your Xbox.

 

[Lightknight]

Why don't you wait for the games to actually come out and see how they use natural user interface before you judge? Who knows, you might actually enjoy it.

No, I won't. I've been through the kinect, I've been through the wii and Hell, I've even been through lair on the ps3. If I'm playing a regular game I don't want those shitty gimmicks. I just want to play the game and enjoy it. This is just silly. Do you think a game will ask me to wave and it'll magically be like I'm immersed into the game and think, Oh, this is so intuitive and natural? No, it's dumb and it's unintuitive unless I'm playing an actual kinect game.

What I want, is every regular game that insists on adding that crap to have a way to opt out.

No. Just no. This is a gross misrepresentation of how it will work.

This isn't what Microsoft has indicated. Their carefully worded response implies that they transmit data that is anonymous (unless you specifically opt into being identified). Otherwise they would have just frankly stated that they don't transmit data. They've even created a patent for software that will monitor if you're paying attention to the ad: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/27/4370676/microsoft-kinect-tv-monitoring-achievements-ads

Look, it's cute to ignore that the kinect 2 isn't the dream of marketers everywhere, but it's really the best thing I can think of for them. I mean, they're really trying to monetise this as best as possible and have been fairly creative with this:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/16/3023687/microsoft-interactive-kinect-nuads-spring-release

This makes perfect sense: http://marketingblogged.marketingmagazine.co.uk/2013/07/04/kinect-2-welcome-to-the-marketers-dream-machine/

Frankly, I'm not even entirely mad. It's about time that marketing gets smarter and stops marketing shit to me that I don't want. If I'm talking about pizza and I browse to where an ad would normally be it might as well be pizza related. There's an ideal future out there where marketing actually starts to benefit us by giving honest and beneficial advice. This is a step towards that ideal future but man if it doesn't feel entirely invasive now. Something's just off about it. I think it's more so that I don't know exactly when it's watching than what it's doing. Or that I won't know exactly what's being sent.

I get that your avatar is a xbox live avatar and that you've got a lot of time and energy invested in them. But don't dismiss this so readily. The XBO will be a good machine. It will play games and people will enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that Microsoft poops roses. Don't get me wrong, I like the company. I'd love to work for them someday, especially in marketing. But this stinks to high-heaven of a marketing opportunity and we should see it for what it is. The only question that remains is if we should be ok with it if that turns out to be entirely the case.

 

[RJ 17]

If there is a Kinect free version then I will definitely buy one.

That's what I've always said as well. Now that they got rid of the DRM bs the last thing preventing me from having any desire to get an XBone is the mandatory Kinect. All my complaints about the console will have been addressed if they give the Kinect the boot...though in all honesty at this point, I don't know if I'd want to get one in the end even without the Kinect just on the principle of "voting with my wallet". Sure, they would have cleaned up their mess, but I think they should be punished for making the mess in the first place.

 

[UnnDunn]

No, you clearly don't know.

As above, I'm not the only one to notice it, as sign ups are now closed I cannot copy the t&c. You can however as you are part of the beta, I will gladly show the offending legalese if you could kindly copy and paste them here. Failure to do so just implies that you know we are right and are reluctant to concede that you signed away your data without realising. It's easy to do sadly so don't feel too bad. Just be mindful of the data you enter into your Xbox.

You don't get to make a claim and then obligate me to prove it for you. Sorry, buddy. Get someone else to post the text if you are so sure. Maybe that other person who you say noticed the offending legalese.

 

[GoaThief]

No, you clearly don't know.

As above, I'm not the only one to notice it, as sign ups are now closed I cannot copy the t&c. You can however as you are part of the beta, I will gladly show the offending legalese if you could kindly copy and paste them here. Failure to do so just implies that you know we are right and are reluctant to concede that you signed away your data without realising. It's easy to do sadly so don't feel too bad. Just be mindful of the data you enter into your Xbox.

You don't get to make a claim and then obligate me to prove it for you. Sorry, buddy. Get someone else to post the text if you are so sure. Maybe that other person who you say noticed the offending legalese.

Right, because two people with no previous contact at all both notice the same thing and decide to post it on the same website just because we like to communicate psychically just to spread BS regarding Microsoft. Get a grip. You just oh so conveniently refuse to provide the t&c you agreed to yet is no longer available to the general public.


You have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. If we are wrong it would be easy to show we are yet you refuse, it speaks volumes.

 

[UnnDunn]

Why don't you wait for the games to actually come out and see how they use natural user interface before you judge? Who knows, you might actually enjoy it.

No, I won't. I've been through the kinect, I've been through the wii and Hell, I've even been through lair on the ps3. If I'm playing a regular game I don't want those shitty gimmicks. I just want to play the game and enjoy it. This is just silly. Do you think a game will ask me to wave and it'll magically be like I'm immersed into the game and think, Oh, this is so intuitive and natural? No, it's dumb and it's unintuitive unless I'm playing an actual kinect game.

What I want, is every regular game that insists on adding that crap to have a way to opt out.

No. Just no. This is a gross misrepresentation of how it will work.

This isn't what Microsoft has indicated. Their carefully worded response implies that they transmit data that is anonymous (unless you specifically opt into being identified). Otherwise they would have just frankly stated that they don't transmit data. They've even created a patent for software that will monitor if you're paying attention to the ad: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/27/4370676/microsoft-kinect-tv-monitoring-achievements-ads

Look, it's cute to ignore that the kinect 2 isn't the dream of marketers everywhere, but it's really the best thing I can think of for them. I mean, they're really trying to monetise this as best as possible and have been fairly creative with this:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/16/3023687/microsoft-interactive-kinect-nuads-spring-release

This makes perfect sense: http://marketingblogged.marketingmagazine.co.uk/2013/07/04/kinect-2-welcome-to-the-marketers-dream-machine/

Frankly, I'm not even entirely mad. It's about time that marketing gets smarter and stops marketing shit to me that I don't want. If I'm talking about pizza and I browse to where an ad would normally be it might as well be pizza related. There's an ideal future out there where marketing actually starts to benefit us by giving honest and beneficial advice. This is a step towards that ideal future but man if it doesn't feel entirely invasive now. Something's just off about it. I think it's more so that I don't know exactly when it's watching than what it's doing. Or that I won't know exactly what's being sent.

I get that your avatar is a xbox live avatar and that you've got a lot of time and energy invested in them. But don't dismiss this so readily. The XBO will be a good machine. It will play games and people will enjoy it. But that doesn't mean that Microsoft poops roses. Don't get me wrong, I like the company. I'd love to work for them someday, especially in marketing. But this stinks to high-heaven of a marketing opportunity and we should see it for what it is. The only question that remains is if we should be ok with it if that turns out to be entirely the case.

From the second link you posted:

Update: Microsoft has reached out to say that it has "strict policies in place that prohibit the collection, storage or use of Kinect data for the purpose of advertising." Additionally, the company and its advertising customers "are not collecting or using data obtained via the Kinect" according to a Microsoft spokesperson.

I'd say that's pretty emphatic.

You've linked a patent application, a speculative editorial and an article in which Microsoft categorically denies collecting NUI data for advertising purposes. I'll even one-up you and link you to this article [http://sticktwiddlers.com/2013/06/28/xbox-one-dashboard-created-with-advertising-in-mind/], which includes statements from a Microsoft Advertising developer talking about how NUI ads are being developed for Xbox One:

?With the new Xbox One, the technology and Kinect has improved a lot,? commented the Technical Account Manager for Xbox LIVE Advertising, ?so that actually the voice recognition, the way you speak to your Xbox and the transition between gaming and watching TV is a lot smoother, and hopefully we can transpire that into advertising that we do.? Gamers have already expressed concerns over the Kinect being able to spy on them and their habits, but it?s not quite at that level of CIA-grade espionage.

The attending Xbox LIVE Advertising Developer commented that they don?t actually receive a lot of the biometric information collected by Kinect. ?This sort of works at two levels. There?s the game producers who have a different API, so a different set of code and system that they use, and they?ve got a lot more control of the whole thing,? he stated, ?whereas from the advertising point of view we have a slightly more limited set, which is designed to protect the user. The company is very keen on protecting the user from any sort of abuse so we can?t do certain things.?

What could transpire in the future though is something that we?re already seeing with a lot of facial recognition technology and personalised information being used to target advertisements. For example, Kinect could detect how many users are in the room and could serve advertisements aimed at families, groups, or individuals. Additional information from your Xbox LIVE account could also influence these by using metrics such as your gender, age, location, media habits and more, and Microsoft are very aware of the potential around this.

(Emphasis added).

So we've got an Xbox Live Advertising Developer saying they don't receive a lot of biometric information. You can speculate on precisely which biometric data they do receive if you want, but to me it would seem more likely to be expression data--whether you're smiling, frowning, engaged or disengaged--while viewing an ad, not voice data collected during general usage. So I still say that your example of "talking about pizza then having a Dominos ad shoved in your face" is a gross misrepresentation.

 

[UnnDunn]

Right, because two people with no previous contact at all both notice the same thing and decide to post it on the same website just because we like to communicate psychically just to spread BS regarding Microsoft. Get a grip. You just oh so conveniently refuse to provide the t&c you agreed to yet is no longer available to the general public.


You have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. If we are wrong it would be easy to show we are yet you refuse, it speaks volumes.

I'm not "conveniently" refusing to provide the t&c I agreed to. I am categorically refusing to provide it. I really am not concerned with whether you find me credible or not. You don't get a free pass: you make the claim, you prove it.

 

[GoaThief]

Right, because two people ople with no previous contact at all both notice the same thing and decide to post it on the same website just because we like to communicate psychically just to spread BS regarding Microsoft. Get a grip. You just oh so conveniently refuse to provide the t&c you agreed to yet is no longer available to the general public.


You have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. If we are wrong it would be easy to show we are yet you refuse, it speaks volumes.

I'm not "conveniently" refusing to provide the t&c I agreed to. I am categorically refusing to provide it. I really am not concerned with whether you find me credible or not. You don't get a free pass: you make the claim, you prove it.

I don't think I've ever seen someone on these forums so heavily in denial and so objectionable to proper discussion. I've asked if you could please post the t&c, yet you won't. I've shown you that I have not just made this up (correlating evidence from another source who claims the same). I have attempted to be constructive and show you exactly where you overlooked the matter when signing up. I have scoured the internet for them. I have contacted some people on the official forums via PM asking if they could send me them. Short of asking Microsoft themselves just to prove my point to a person with a XBL avatar on a forum what else do you honestly expect me to do?

Be reasonable and actually engage in discussion rather than flat out dismissive, rude and insulting behaviour.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

If they remove the Big Brother machine I can see myself getting an Xbone at some point. They need good exclusives though. I don't care about Halo and Gears of War.

 

[MagunBFP]

Right, because two people ople with no previous contact at all both notice the same thing and decide to post it on the same website just because we like to communicate psychically just to spread BS regarding Microsoft. Get a grip. You just oh so conveniently refuse to provide the t&c you agreed to yet is no longer available to the general public.


You have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. If we are wrong it would be easy to show we are yet you refuse, it speaks volumes.

I'm not "conveniently" refusing to provide the t&c I agreed to. I am categorically refusing to provide it. I really am not concerned with whether you find me credible or not. You don't get a free pass: you make the claim, you prove it.

I don't think I've ever seen someone on these forums so heavily in denial and so objectionable to proper discussion. I've asked if you could please post the t&c, yet you won't. I've shown you that I have not just made this up (correlating evidence from another source who claims the same). I have attempted to be constructive and show you exactly where you overlooked the matter when signing up. I have scoured the internet for them. I have contacted some people on the official forums via PM asking if they could send me them. Short of asking Microsoft themselves just to prove my point to a person with a XBL avatar on a forum what else do you honestly expect me to do?

Be reasonable and actually engage in discussion rather than flat out dismissive, rude and insulting behaviour.

While I wouldn't be surprised at what Microsoft put into the terms and conditions, since you're making the claim the burden of proof is 100% on you. Back yourself or don't, but it's no one else's job to prove your point for you.

The "evidence" you've provided is one random guy saying "hey, did you notice..." and a second guy saying "aww yeah, now that you mention it..." not since the KKK was trying black people for being "racially offensive" has that been even slightly acceptable standard to be considered evidence.

While I'm going to stop short of saying that you're point is wrong, I am going to ask how you can be so 100% undeniably sure that your interpretation is the correct one. Now that you're being challenged on it what facts have you re-examined to ensure that you are actually right? Or is this a case of "I read it once and this is what I think it means and some other random guy agreed with me so I must be right"?