Music = Math

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HSIAMetalKing

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If any of you have read Richard Powers' Galatea 2.2, you'll probably notice a few parallels in this piece on music generated (created?) by a computer program named Emily Howell.

Is the World's Most Intelligent Music Composing Software as Creative as Bach?
By Jeremy Hsu Posted 02.25.2010 at 5:15 pm 7 Comments

Cyborg Composer UC Santa Cruz emeritus professor David Cope prepares to unleash Emily Howell upon the music world Catherine Karnow via Miller-McCune

If the thought of a Wiimote-controlled robot drum circle sounded vaguely disturbing, prepare yourself. This month, composer and software developer David Cope is set to unveil the first musical works composed by his latest creation, dubbed "Emily Howell." Emily is a piece of software that many see as the most advanced artificially intelligent music composer. The program is already stirring fierce debate over its supposed ability to generate creations indistinguishable from those composed by the masters--Mozart, Bach and the gang. Miller-McCune went in-depth with this strange and fascinating tale of creativity in the age of artificial intelligence.

Cope first turned to artificial intelligence after experiencing a bad case of composer's block that prevented him from finishing an opera commission. That led to the creation of a program called Emmy, which could effortlessly replicate the style of Bach or other great human composers, cranking out more compositions in one afternoon than any human could produce in one lifetime.

Emmy infuriated critics and music-lovers alike, especially when Cope asked an audience to distinguish between real Bach and Emmy-composed Bach and few could hear the difference. But many researchers hailed Emmy, and some even suggested that it had successfully passed some level of the "Turing Test," because people couldn't differentiate its artificial work from that of humans.

Still, even some of Cope's supporters admit that Emmy disturbed them with its implications. Cope designed Emmy to work based on his view that all music -- or any creative venture -- is based on previous works. The idea that human creativity is just a product of recombination has upset some musicians and artists (and humanists), despite the idea having a certain cold logic.

As Cope suggests, even the most revered music composers must have created their works based on the conscious and subconscious mind's interpretations of previous music. He drove home that point by using Emmy to reverse-engineer the works of famous composers, tracing their component elements back to earlier pieces of music.

The daughter program of Emmy, dubbed Emily Howell, takes a more cooperative approach with Cope rather than simply churning out new scores based on recombination algorithms. Cope and Emily Howell engage in a musical conversation involving certain compositions or statements, where Cope will label certain musical statements "yes" or "no." That trains the program to refine its composition approach, and eventually it creates its own, Cope-styled original music.

Critics have remained unconvinced, despite the fact that many still can't differentiate between Emily Howell's work and that of a human. For instance, one music-lover who listened to Emily Howell's work praised it without knowing that it had come from a computer program. Half a year later, the same person attended one of Cope's lectures at the University of California-Santa Cruz on Emily Howell. After listening to a recording of the very same concert he had attended earlier, he told Cope that it was pretty music but lacked "heart or soul or depth."

Emily Howell has an upcoming album, but you can already here some short samples of its robotic genius (?) in the Miller-McCune story. Did we mention that Cope has also signed a confidential deal with a well-known pop group to write songs for them? Sound off below and let us know whether you buy into this future of music and art, or whether this AI composer just doesn't wash.

[via Miller-McCune]

I'm interested to see what you guys think about this-- do you think that music produced by an AI or other sort of computerlike entity can be more effective/better than music composed by humans? Do you think you would be able to tell the difference between Emily's music and "man-made" music?

I'm especially interested in your opinion if you are yourself a musician-- what are the implications of this as far as the music industry is concerned? Does Emily's music lack, as they suggest in the article, "heart and soul?"
 

Wardnath

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It'd certainly be more complex, that's for certain. But better? I have no idea.
 

zauxz

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Nononononononono.

Music is already half dead, they can't do this!
 

BonsaiK

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Music theory has mathematical rules of all sorts of types. It would be possible to create musical pieces using tonal rules. However popular music also contains rhythm (for which the rules are looser) and timbre (for which the rules are non-existent) that varies wildly and evolves over time... "Emily" would therefore be very much a produc of the time in which she was written...
 

HSIAMetalKing

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BonsaiK said:
Music theory has mathematical rules of all sorts of types. It would be possible to create musical pieces using tonal rules. However popular music also contains rhythm (for which the rules are looser) and timbre (for which the rules are non-existent) that varies wildly and evolves over time... "Emily" would therefore be very much a produc of the time in which she was written...
Indeed-- the article actually mentions that Emily's designer developed her software by following the notion that all music is based on past music. He claims to be able to trace the origins of music, even from famous composers, to the same roots, implying that all of our notions of "good music" are simply products of the manipulation of past music.
 

Guttural Engagement

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I definately think that a machine cannot create MUSIC. I don't doubt it's ability to create sounds set in rythm with a beat. But MUSIC contains emotion, and a machine simply cannot provide that.

A machine could in theory make 'Music'; but it wouldn't be very good. Because emotion is the centerstone of the music theory - and machines don't have emotion.

That's very cool though; I'll have to check this 'Music' out.
 

Daveman

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Sebenko said:
Everything = maths.

[/universe]
shit, you dun stolen mah comment!

But yeah, everything can be simplified down to maths. Maths is this...

Everything else pales in comparison, any theoretical basis for stuff will eventually come back to one thing. Maths.
 

HSIAMetalKing

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Novskij said:
It would be souless. More complex, but souless.
Guttural Engagement said:
A machine could in theory make 'Music'; but it wouldn't be very good. Because emotion is the centerstone of the music theory - and machines don't have emotion.
Furburt said:
Sure, it's impressive, but it just doesn't really have much energy, which is the main reason I listen to and make music, it's the one thing I like that I can't explain. There is a definite, if maybe not measurable, thing in music that makes you very elated and excited, and I call that the musics 'energy'. If a piece of music doesn't have that, I don't like it, it sounds stale to me.

Sounds bizarre, but it really is what distinguishes human music from totally computer based music.
To Furburt-- doesn't seem very bizarre to me! This is an argument many musicians still uphold.

According to that article, Emily was able to pass a "Turing Test", of sorts, because even musical experts could not notice the difference. Do you all think that you would be able to distinguish between Emily's music and that of a human composer? I guess what I'm asking is this: are you able to point to a specific aspect of a song which makes it clearly human, or is this something that you would feel on some level?
 

Umberphoenix

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I make all my music using a computer. I don't make the computer do the composing for me but I do use it to align the notes perfectly, to create instruments I can't actually play, add effects and distortions, that kind of stuff. In the end the pieces are perfect in the sense that there isn't a single timing error. On the downside, it can take a while to make music like this.

I don't see anything wrong with computers making music. As long as it sounds good I'm happy.

EDIT: I see people saying it wouldn't have emotion or energy... But what if it did? What if I gave you a piece of music and I said "this was made by a band near my home town. It's pretty good, don't you think?" But it turned out that what I had given you was actually computer-generated all the way? Do you think you would really notice a difference in the music if you believed that a human had made it?

This is, of course, based on the notion that the music actually sounds good in the first place.
 

Guttural Engagement

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@HSIAMetalKing:

I think what were all trying to convey is that a human musician can make you feel and know what emotion the artist was feeling in while they wrote that song; because they can use different techniques, notes, octaves (in vocals), and ect to convey the emotion felt.

A machine however lacks emotion, so even if it was programmed to 'emulate' an emotion by say selecting randomly from different emotions - and changing the music accordingly; it would still not have emotion. Because it's not real emotion, and machines still couldn't emulate them - even if programmed to do so. All because emotions are simply too complicated to emulate or recreat; espeially in music.

That's what I think we've all been trying to convey in our posts.
 

DreadfulSorry

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I would definitely agree that math is involved in composing, even if the composers don't realize they're using math! And I also agree that a lot of music is based off of what we have heard before, but I don't think that can apply to all music.
As a classically trained musician, I've been taught all the "rules" of composition. As an obsessive listener of all musical genres and types, I've learned that there are musicians who are breaking these rules ALL THE TIME! Sure it's possible to create a program which composes music based on the rules, but it takes human creativity and initiative to break through those boundaries and create something that no one has ever heard before. And in my opinion, the latter is the music that is worth listening to.
 

Lateinos

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I think this technology is going to have a profound effect on music. It'll start slow of course. Pop musicians will feed it info on successful singles to try to get tips on a formula. Over time, as people overcome their fear of the new technology it will become more and more widely used. As it is now, it has no chance of completely supplanting human musicians, but it is not fully developed yet. Emily will be the first in a line of advances, each one of which is capable of more of the responsibilities of composition than the last one was.

Many composers will react by breaking off from the mainstream. They will try to differentiate themselves from the work of machines (for both emotional and economic reasons), and in doing so, they will break off from what the machines are copying. They will try entirely different kinds of music. If any of the new genres become popular, then the machines will start to copy them, and the humans will have to break off again. Popular music will enter a period of new and varied genres.

This all idle speculation, of course. I'm no psychic.

By the way, although I don't think that human composers are ready to be replaced yet, I don't buy that crap about computers not being able to create satisfying music. Music composition really is math. Chords are chords, regardless of who or what is inventing them. Personally, I look forward to what these fellas can do.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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The samples from the original article were pretty, but not really what I look for in classical piano - they were more the sort of music I'd play in the background and be confident nobody would complain about. But this isn't a critique of the electronic composer so much as the musical style itself, as I've heard pieces that sounded almost exactly like that by composers out here in meatspace, and I thought the same thing.

Purely electronic compositions can be soulful and moving, though all the examples I could present had a human at the core of the design process - it remains to be seen if an electronic composer can match their output.

Furburt said:
HSIAMetalKing said:
I guess what I'm asking is this: are you able to point to a specific aspect of a song which makes it clearly human, or is this something that you would feel on some level?
Definitely a feeling. It's a certain element in the music, that makes you feel happy or excited when you listen to it. It's different for different people, but it always shares one critical feature, it makes people happy. I believe it's something to do with the release of a chemical similar to dopamine in the brain, although I don't really know much about that.
I might be inclined to agree with you, if my collection of incredibly depressing and/or heart-wrenchingly beautiful and yet sad music wasn't sitting here. Obviously I enjoy it, but happiness isn't really a factor of that enjoyment.

Now, you're certainly free to base whether or not you enjoy music by the metric of happiness/excitement it provides, but for me, the mark of truly great music is simply to be emotionally moving, whether it moves you to joy or despair.
 

Tharwen

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It won't be music until it's producing realistic hardcore metal. With lyrics.

EDIT: I've just listened to the samples of Emily's music, and actually quite like it :D

Skynet will be created by musical software demanding unpaid royalties.