Muslim Should Not Equal Villain
- Thread starter Saladin Ahmed
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"The aliens of the Halo franchise are more humanized than the bad guys in America's Army..." lol
and yeah...I mean it comes down to a WW2 game with Nazis, a COld War game with Communist Russians, or a modern game with turban-wearing Muslim extremists
and of course, any educated person would understand that not all the German soldiers were Nazis, not all Russians were Soviet KGB, and not all Muslims (I understand a small minority rather) are AK/RPG toting Terrorists
and yeah...I mean it comes down to a WW2 game with Nazis, a COld War game with Communist Russians, or a modern game with turban-wearing Muslim extremists
and of course, any educated person would understand that not all the German soldiers were Nazis, not all Russians were Soviet KGB, and not all Muslims (I understand a small minority rather) are AK/RPG toting Terrorists
not everyone in America is a redneck cowboy haha...well, some educated students (hey, we have Muslim students here too!) know that there's a different between a Muslim and a Muslim extremistJourneyThroughHell said:
so technically the game portrayals aren't incorrect stereotypes (unless it so happens they depict a wrong model of an RPG launcher) until they declare all Muslims are Terrorists
which would be absurd
though honestly I would've expected more games to feature the North Koreans as the bad guys
since media seems to love the evil Asian guy...meh
(I mean technically they aren't actively fighting with American forces, neither were the Soviets in the Cold War)
This is where you are wrong. Truth is not based on perspective, if we still believed that, the earth would still be flat. Unless you are a flat earther? In that event,let me introduce you to what is in fact truth. For instance, truth is indivisible in it's definition as: Conformity to fact or actuality. Which is objective, and not subjective as you have stated. This invalidates your claim in it's entirety. Therefore it is your logic that is flawed. Allow me to drive the point home further. There are absolute truths, ones that cannot be questioned. Because to say that there is no such thing as an absolute truth is a self-defeating statement. Because if that statement were not in itself an absolute it would be false!Giest4life said:
Truth is a constant, and is supported largely by the factual, not the opinion. In the case of the flat earth, people believed that the earth was flat because that was all the knew. This didn't make it the truth, simply because they believed it. In fact 500 years later, we now know that the earth is round. Perspective can change, the truth, however, remains the same. Unless you actually believe that upon thinking the earth is round, that it suddenly became round?
Morality is another story that is subjective and is based on perspective. As are the concepts of good and evil. For the record, I never said anything about morality. You did. Truth supersedes the subjective. I spoke in terms of truth as in factual evidence that you can find anywhere. On the subject of morality. Look up Honor killings some time. If you don't think that is evil, well, then there is nothing that can be done for you.
This is clearly a difficult issue, one that will divide the Escapist for many years to come. And as much as I would like to go back To Team Fortress 2 and try to pretend this all never happended, I feel something should be said.
A protagonist's skin color or religious belief's would not make for an interesting character. the way a protagonist behaves and responds to the world around him however, does. I do believe that more game developers should try and differentiate the idea of what a protagonist should be, But at the same time, I am worried that the game may be hurt because of it. For Example, lets take...Uncharted. if Nathan Drake skin color was changed to what you would call a "middle eastern" skin color, for example, do you think Uncharted would sell less? Nothing about the character would change, except his skin color. you might not think it would, as would I, but i quickly learned that changing something people take for granted, will very quickly get you few friends.
During our social studies class, we were discussing the birth of Christianity during Roman times. I brought up that while most Medieval age paintings depict Jesus as white, it is more likely that he would be of middle eastern decent, with a tanned or even black skin color. let me tell you, I got more question glares that day then when I did a project about the Rape of Nanking.
I'm sorry for turning this discussion away from it's original intention, but I do think that for the most part, the western world is...well, afraid of having a middle eastern protagonist.
A protagonist's skin color or religious belief's would not make for an interesting character. the way a protagonist behaves and responds to the world around him however, does. I do believe that more game developers should try and differentiate the idea of what a protagonist should be, But at the same time, I am worried that the game may be hurt because of it. For Example, lets take...Uncharted. if Nathan Drake skin color was changed to what you would call a "middle eastern" skin color, for example, do you think Uncharted would sell less? Nothing about the character would change, except his skin color. you might not think it would, as would I, but i quickly learned that changing something people take for granted, will very quickly get you few friends.
During our social studies class, we were discussing the birth of Christianity during Roman times. I brought up that while most Medieval age paintings depict Jesus as white, it is more likely that he would be of middle eastern decent, with a tanned or even black skin color. let me tell you, I got more question glares that day then when I did a project about the Rape of Nanking.
I'm sorry for turning this discussion away from it's original intention, but I do think that for the most part, the western world is...well, afraid of having a middle eastern protagonist.
America has freedom of religion laws, the Middle East does not? False equivalence.TimeLord75 said:
Like moderate Christians do exactly the same way? Talk about a double-standard, huh?TimeLord75 said:
..You realize you just linked to a Christian fundamentalist website for "proof", right?nightkill said:
Have to say, this is one of the best articles I've seen on the Escapist.
Well done sir, its nice to see somebody challenging the cultural stereotypes so deeply ingrained into western culture that we hardly ever even realise we ascribe to them. And doing so in a well worded, entertaining and thought provoking way simply adds to your argument.
As for those naysayers who are saying, in essence, "Shut up and Put up". Might I recommend you think about what your saying here? Your saying that because other groups of people are villainized in computer games, and western culture generally, that people in those groups should just get used to it. Your saying that they don't have the right to be angry at the way their cultural group is being portrayed because others are also portrayed in the same light.
I hate to bring Godwin's law in here but; that's like saying the Jewish people had no right to complain during the Holocaust because all those disabled and homosexual people were also being persecuted and murdered.
If your comfortable defending that position then by all means do, just don't stand too close to me as I have a violent allergy to bigotry.
Well done sir, its nice to see somebody challenging the cultural stereotypes so deeply ingrained into western culture that we hardly ever even realise we ascribe to them. And doing so in a well worded, entertaining and thought provoking way simply adds to your argument.
As for those naysayers who are saying, in essence, "Shut up and Put up". Might I recommend you think about what your saying here? Your saying that because other groups of people are villainized in computer games, and western culture generally, that people in those groups should just get used to it. Your saying that they don't have the right to be angry at the way their cultural group is being portrayed because others are also portrayed in the same light.
I hate to bring Godwin's law in here but; that's like saying the Jewish people had no right to complain during the Holocaust because all those disabled and homosexual people were also being persecuted and murdered.
If your comfortable defending that position then by all means do, just don't stand too close to me as I have a violent allergy to bigotry.
I sympathize with Mr. Ahmed. I'd like to see more games where people from ethnical or cultural groups that are so often vilified are protagonists instead of one-dimensional big bads or as nameless hordes.
PS. Saladin is an awesome name.
PS. Saladin is an awesome name.
Good lord, did you just unironically refer to something created by JACK CHICK as evidence?nightkill said:
I would argue however those saying Shut uip are stating that how do you intend to resolve htis other then legislating against people and interfering with freedom of speech to an unneccesary degree. Your example does not fit, there is no government laws exclusively against Mulsims (if there were I would oppose them) and there is certainly no campaign to eradicate them.Vie said:
The thing is Ahmed can be as angry as he wants to be but what does he expect that to translate as? I would instead suggest that any Muslim within the games industry see about creating games with Mulsim heros or set in a Middle Eastern context. That seems a far better response then "How dare you cast part of my identity group as villians and not enough as heroes! You bigot!".
You know what I'd like to see in a game?
A chance to beat up those damn dirty Amish Buddhists!
I hate them so much what with their renouncement of technology and harmony for all!
A chance to beat up those damn dirty Amish Buddhists!
I hate them so much what with their renouncement of technology and harmony for all!
Sorry, fail argument.Waif said:
You're basing your standard for Truth on the false theories of induction, and causality. Our epistemological limits prohibit us from knowing anything outside what we can experience. Objectivity is just lots of people agreeing on something, and calling it "objective" so that it may never be doubted. But of course, they fail, and don't worry the axioms of today will[/b] be the fables of tomorrow.
Giest4life said:
So you actually believe that the world isn't round? Even when there is evidence to contrary? Objectivity is factual and evidence based. Objectivity is not qualitative, it's quantitative. If you can't see that, then clearly you are the one with the problem. Well then I'm sorry that I can't convince you of the obvious truth. It seems you have failed to even read what I had said, because if you had. You would not have posted this. Oh I'll give you this link:
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae535.cfm
Obvious you believe that the earth is round only because a lot of people agree on it. Such an argument doesn't even make sense, especially with the data supporting it. Therefore it seems that you are the one with the fail argument. I have proved as such. Though you know, I don't really care whether or not you believe this. You are free to believe that the earth is flat. Obviously you are just trying to antagonize me, because no one could be so dumb about these things. I'm not gonna stoop to your level, I've said all that can be said to a person who will not listen to truth and fact. Good day to you.
The human mind cannot objectively verify facts, and I can't stress that "fact" enough. The concept that the Earth is round is not an objective Truth, it's a truth that people throughout the ages have viewed differently, and it is likely that they will once again doubt the objectivity of it. It is so much easier to convince yourself of "facts," than to doubt. The problem here is not with science; it's with the human mind.Waif said:
Also, I'm not trying to "antagonize" you. I guess David Hume [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume], and Friedrich Nietzsche [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche], amongst others as well, had just been trolling mankind?
..... you do realize the good guys in the POP are either Muslim or damn close same for Aladdin, I think we haz failuerz to comunicatez going on...as all I am seeing is "presumption: middle eastern=bad!" discuss.
All I see is people and some of them are damn hot,even covered in 2 robes worth of material!Eyes are sexy damnit!!
All I see is people and some of them are damn hot,even covered in 2 robes worth of material!Eyes are sexy damnit!!
Coming back to this thread again, with a few days of consideration below my belt, I think that the problem is not the games themselves, but social bias. Saladin (which is a wicked name by the way) touches on this on page 10 when he says that if people really think that games reflect the current geopolitical situation (in that "all enemies of the western world" are muslims) then they need to broaden their perspective.
It is interesting because he's grazing against one of my favourite points, namely how media gives us bias. Almost every large media congolmerate in the western world today loves to tell us that "muslim extremists does this" and "islamists think that" and there's an extremly unsettling trend to value a crime commited by a muslim as a better news story then the same crime commited by any other religious or ethnical group (When was the last time you read a headline like: "Catholic man tried to rob a bank"?). For many people today, muslims do seem like the "big threat" because that is what media is telling us. Nevermind that Mexico is rapidly moving towards a state of near dissolution due to widespread corruption and organized crime or the fact that drug cartels makes billions in profit every year (and their products have significant economical impact on society). It is the guys shouting about holy wars and failing to launch cruise missiles that we have to worry about.
So of course games will contain muslim antagonists, because in the current media climate they are easily identifiable as bad guys. The game doesn't need to provide any exposition on why a muslim is evil, the player's own awareness of what media tells him/her will already be enough (if nothing else everyone knows about 9/11). But what about a game were ETA is the bad guy? Or help/fight the rebels in Burma? How about a game were you fight mexican crime? All of these suddenly forces the game to tell you why you should hate or like any of the groups in that particular game. Not to mention, it will be harder to make people buy the game. Shooting muslims/arabs is politically accepted since they are "the enemy" currently, but shooting irish people? Spaniards? Other americans/englishmen/swedes or whichever nation you come from in a warzone?
Lastly, I'd like to just say a thing to the "The moderate muslims must step up crowd". It is very hard for any form of moderate voice to be heard, especially in the current media climate were muslims are typically vilified. Reading swedish books like Lasermannen (a book about 'Lasermannen' a serial killer who killed immigrants and racism in Sweden) and En äkta våldtäktsman (a book about medias portrayal of rapists and societies view on rapists) makes it abundantly clear that muslims and arabs are over-represented by a large marigin in medias news coverage of crimes. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but considering that Sweden is one of the countries often praised for our "open mindedness" I don't find it particularly hard to believe that a similar disproportion exists in the rest of Europe and America. Media currently likes the image of the evil arabic muslim, it sells, so why threaten that stereotype? Besides, bad news sells better than good, sadly.
It is interesting because he's grazing against one of my favourite points, namely how media gives us bias. Almost every large media congolmerate in the western world today loves to tell us that "muslim extremists does this" and "islamists think that" and there's an extremly unsettling trend to value a crime commited by a muslim as a better news story then the same crime commited by any other religious or ethnical group (When was the last time you read a headline like: "Catholic man tried to rob a bank"?). For many people today, muslims do seem like the "big threat" because that is what media is telling us. Nevermind that Mexico is rapidly moving towards a state of near dissolution due to widespread corruption and organized crime or the fact that drug cartels makes billions in profit every year (and their products have significant economical impact on society). It is the guys shouting about holy wars and failing to launch cruise missiles that we have to worry about.
So of course games will contain muslim antagonists, because in the current media climate they are easily identifiable as bad guys. The game doesn't need to provide any exposition on why a muslim is evil, the player's own awareness of what media tells him/her will already be enough (if nothing else everyone knows about 9/11). But what about a game were ETA is the bad guy? Or help/fight the rebels in Burma? How about a game were you fight mexican crime? All of these suddenly forces the game to tell you why you should hate or like any of the groups in that particular game. Not to mention, it will be harder to make people buy the game. Shooting muslims/arabs is politically accepted since they are "the enemy" currently, but shooting irish people? Spaniards? Other americans/englishmen/swedes or whichever nation you come from in a warzone?
Lastly, I'd like to just say a thing to the "The moderate muslims must step up crowd". It is very hard for any form of moderate voice to be heard, especially in the current media climate were muslims are typically vilified. Reading swedish books like Lasermannen (a book about 'Lasermannen' a serial killer who killed immigrants and racism in Sweden) and En äkta våldtäktsman (a book about medias portrayal of rapists and societies view on rapists) makes it abundantly clear that muslims and arabs are over-represented by a large marigin in medias news coverage of crimes. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but considering that Sweden is one of the countries often praised for our "open mindedness" I don't find it particularly hard to believe that a similar disproportion exists in the rest of Europe and America. Media currently likes the image of the evil arabic muslim, it sells, so why threaten that stereotype? Besides, bad news sells better than good, sadly.
"It was only a small percentage of Nazis that were actually raping and pillaging Europe, worked in death camps and or supported the Fuhrer's crazy, homicidal and eventually suicidal assault on Europe"
"It was only a small percentage of the Japanese military that were actually raping and pillaging South East Asia, worked in death camps and or supported the Emperors crazy, homicidal and eventually suicidal assault on the allied powers"
"It was only a small percentage of Communists that were actually raping and pillaging Europe, worked in death camps and or supported the USSR's crazy, homicidal and eventually suicidal assault on West Europe"
"Its only a small percentage of Muslims that actually lead multiple attacks on the civilized world from various South East Asian countries to the United States"
Same shit different war. But its important to note that this isn't a war on Muslims as it was a war with Japan. This is a war with extremists and radicalism.
Look, unless you can get a lot of Muslims to get together and disown the radical Muslims from the ranks of Islam,then more people will start thinking about Muslims in a more positive light. But let me remind you that the last time the US went up against this kind of fanaticism, no matter how "small the radical minority was" we got fed up and used atomic weapons.
--------
Now as for the game and how upset you are about how they portray Muslims, I dont really see what your complaining about. If Muslims are such peaceful people then these games dont represent Muslims now do they? It just represents the "violent minority" right?
This is actually the same problem I had with Edward Said claiming that a bunch of b and c list movies and actors were corrupting the minds of westerners and specifically Americans. This I consider the same argument that violent TV or videogames corrupt the youth.
In conclusion I understand that many video game playing Muslims are in a precarious and uncomfortable position when the newest game is killing people who speak the same language or practice the same religion as you. And the rest of the world has already separated the violent from the nonviolent except for the dumbasses who screw their cousins in the mountains, or the skin heads in Europe who just hate everybody and probably screw their cousins in cheap hotel rooms. So if the rest of the planet can make the distinction why cant the Muslim community? The truth of the matter is I have no idea.
As a final note after my final conclusion so more like a PS:
Muhammad wasn't just THE prophet he was also a smart and brutal brutal military general, just like Moses. All of these "prophets of peace" were written about when (or a few years after) they were kicking someone elses ass across the Middle East. Basically Im waiting for the next prophet to show up any time now or at least find a person whose recently had a shit ton written about them.
"It was only a small percentage of the Japanese military that were actually raping and pillaging South East Asia, worked in death camps and or supported the Emperors crazy, homicidal and eventually suicidal assault on the allied powers"
"It was only a small percentage of Communists that were actually raping and pillaging Europe, worked in death camps and or supported the USSR's crazy, homicidal and eventually suicidal assault on West Europe"
"Its only a small percentage of Muslims that actually lead multiple attacks on the civilized world from various South East Asian countries to the United States"
Same shit different war. But its important to note that this isn't a war on Muslims as it was a war with Japan. This is a war with extremists and radicalism.
Look, unless you can get a lot of Muslims to get together and disown the radical Muslims from the ranks of Islam,then more people will start thinking about Muslims in a more positive light. But let me remind you that the last time the US went up against this kind of fanaticism, no matter how "small the radical minority was" we got fed up and used atomic weapons.
--------
Now as for the game and how upset you are about how they portray Muslims, I dont really see what your complaining about. If Muslims are such peaceful people then these games dont represent Muslims now do they? It just represents the "violent minority" right?
This is actually the same problem I had with Edward Said claiming that a bunch of b and c list movies and actors were corrupting the minds of westerners and specifically Americans. This I consider the same argument that violent TV or videogames corrupt the youth.
In conclusion I understand that many video game playing Muslims are in a precarious and uncomfortable position when the newest game is killing people who speak the same language or practice the same religion as you. And the rest of the world has already separated the violent from the nonviolent except for the dumbasses who screw their cousins in the mountains, or the skin heads in Europe who just hate everybody and probably screw their cousins in cheap hotel rooms. So if the rest of the planet can make the distinction why cant the Muslim community? The truth of the matter is I have no idea.
As a final note after my final conclusion so more like a PS:
Muhammad wasn't just THE prophet he was also a smart and brutal brutal military general, just like Moses. All of these "prophets of peace" were written about when (or a few years after) they were kicking someone elses ass across the Middle East. Basically Im waiting for the next prophet to show up any time now or at least find a person whose recently had a shit ton written about them.