Muslim Should Not Equal Villain

[Vredesbyrd67]

I believe there was a supporting character in one of the "The Suffering" games who was Muslim. Supposedly, he was one of the best contemporary depictions of a Muslim man in a video game ever, in terms of him being something other than a terrorist.

 

[LetalisK]

I think there is an argument to be made about heroes in video games tending to be of non-descript white heritage, or at least looking like it(which probably has more to do with market triangulations than racism), going after other video games for portraying a specific group as bad doesn't make sense to me. Every group has their turn up as the bad guy(probably because every group has a subsect among them that are bad people). Russians and Germans have already been mentioned. Christians are used outright or as a template in games like Assassin's Creed and Thief 2. Asians are used in WW2 pacific games or anything set in the pacific. Blacks when it comes to settings in Africa. Corporations and secret government agencies are used all the time. Muslims and Arabs? Modern Warfare implemented Arabs, with the Muslim part left out and irrelevant in favor of them being revolutionaries against a corrupt government. As the article pointed out, Assassin's Creed used Muslims, but the religion of both Islam and Christianity were not even the focal points, but rather a back drop against which a third religious sect is unveiled as the enemy. Muslims and Arabs have not received different treatment from the gaming industry than any other group when it comes to villification. (Is that even a word? >.>) If we don't treat Germans, Asians, Christians, Corporations, or government agencies with kid gloves, we should we do so with Muslims and Arabs? In fact, isn't that kind of insulting, since it implies that Muslims and Arabs are some how more emotionally fragile than those other groups?

Now, if the author's point was about how Muslims and Arabs aren't present as heroes, which has been put forth here, perhaps he should have spent more time talking about that instead of using the vast majority of the article to discuss about how Muslims and Arabs are unfairly portrayed as villains.

 

[BloodSquirrel]

I dont think the author is saying that muslims and arabs aren't fair game, i don't think anyone is. But once again, if the only arabs you see are shooting at you, then he has a point. Even if its half of modern shooters, its still 99% of the arabs in video games. Yes if the KKK was real world problem we probably would see games about them, but once again, that wouldn't be a problem unless that was the only white people you saw in video games. You ignored the point of his article btw.

It's not even half of modern shooters: it's half of realistic military shooters. In other words, it's the games which are modeled after current real-world military conflicts. Muslims aren't popping up to kill me in Bioshock. It's one sub-genre of a sub-genre, the one which makes perfect sense to have them as villians.

Otherwise, they don't show up much because they are an extreme minority in the countries that make games, and most games take place in settings where an explicitly Muslim character doesn't make too much sense in the first place. How many Christian characters are there in video games?

I'm not ignoring the point of this article- in fact, I'm refusing to ignore a large portion of it that you want to gloss over.

 

[Charli]

I would encourage the muslims who are rich and despite what you think, there are many. To make their own video games. That is all.

If you want somthing done, do it yourself. Words to live by. If you don't like how your people are depicted in video games, well stop playing them and hup to it boy.

 

[Jkudo]

I dont think the author is saying that muslims and arabs aren't fair game, i don't think anyone is. But once again, if the only arabs you see are shooting at you, then he has a point. Even if its half of modern shooters, its still 99% of the arabs in video games. Yes if the KKK was real world problem we probably would see games about them, but once again, that wouldn't be a problem unless that was the only white people you saw in video games. You ignored the point of his article btw.

It's not even half of modern shooters: it's half of realistic military shooters. In other words, it's the games which are modeled after current real-world military conflicts. Muslims aren't popping up to kill me in Bioshock. It's one sub-genre of a sub-genre, the one which makes perfect sense to have them as villians.

Otherwise, they don't show up much because they are an extreme minority in the countries that make games, and most games take place in settings where an explicitly Muslim character doesn't make too much sense in the first place. How many Christian characters are there in video games?

I'm not ignoring the point of this article- in fact, I'm refusing to ignore a large portion of it that you want to gloss over.

I dont mean an explicitly Muslim character i'm referring to an Arab character. Even if you say its a sub genre of a sub genre, it doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong with that being the only depiction of Arabs. The author is saying he would like to see more Arabs that arent shooting at you. For something that only happens in a sub genre of a sub genre it is shown pretty often. The fact is Arabs are a minority in most of the countries games are made yes, but so are plenty of other people, if black people were only shown in games doing stereotypical things and nothing else it would be a problem. Yea it makes sense for Arab terrorists to be the villain in these games, but is it impossible to imagine seeing an Arab in the Arab country the game is set in, not trying to kill you? Honestly do you think Arab people are represented as much more than terrorists in video games? Because that's the point of the article. I dont think he is hoping to stop people from playing games where you fight against the taliban, i think once again he just wants to see a little more variety in how his race is depicted.

 

[bojac6]

Almost every game? Please knock of the ridiculous hyperbole. Modern, realistic military shooters use islamic extremists about half the time, and they do it because it's a real-world conflict currently going on. If the KKK was a comparable real-world problem, we'd see just as many games about that.

Allow me to be more specific. Almost every game that has Muslim characters. I thought that was implicit in the argument, as games that do not feature Muslims are irrelevant to this discussion. Almost every game with Muslims portrays them as villains.

He's not complaining about Taliban being portrayed as villains,

They why does he keep bringing it up?

Because it's the most prevalent way Muslims are portrayed in games. You take the examples that exist. If he could point to more games that portrayed Muslims in different contexts, he probably would not have written the article.

I'm not name calling, your argument is based on the premise that for a Muslim to be a good guy, you would have to be portraying a Muslim extremist as a good guy.

That is an absurd strawman. My argument is that muslims are fair game for being used as villians.

If that is your argument, it has not be very clear. The author wrote an article about how Muslims are overwhelming portrayed as villains in video games and he wishes there would be more Muslim characters in a positive light. That is his argument. You replied to this by pointing to games in which Muslims are the villains and that it makes sense that they are the villains in these games. Okay, that's not the problem, the author simply expressed a desire to see Muslims in a different light sometimes. You then imply that the author is a terrorist sympathizer or at least isn't willing to condemn them:

You're asking for it both ways. You don't want to disown muslim extremists and admit that they are the bad guys, but you don't want to be assocaited with them either.

Truth be told, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. If your point is simply that making the Taliban the bad guys in a game about fighting the Taliban is fitting? Yes, I agree entirely, nobody has really disagreed, why are we having this discussion?

But the original article was about making more games that portray Muslims as human beings, like Assassin's Creed. Not eliminating games with Muslim villains, but creating games with Muslims heroes. There are plenty of reasons game companies don't do this, from marketability to avoiding controversy, but it still is a perfectly reasonable request in my mind. You appear to be arguing against this as well, though I may be interpreting your argument incorrectly. So, are you arguing against this part of the article or not?

 

[BloodSquirrel]

I dont mean an explicitly Muslim character i'm referring to an Arab character. Even if you say its a sub genre of a sub genre, it doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong with that being the only depiction of Arabs.

Why not? Because a handful of people want something else? It's on them to either create what they want or demonstrate that they have enough spending power to justify somebody else creating it. It isn't anybody else's moral responsibility to spend 20 million dollars to create a video game that makes them feel good about himself.

The author is saying he would like to see more Arabs that arent shooting at you. For something that only happens in a sub genre of a sub genre it is shown pretty often. The fact is Arabs are a minority in most of the countries games are made yes, but so are plenty of other people, if black people were only shown in games doing stereotypical things and nothing else it would be a problem. Yea it makes sense for Arab terrorists to be the villain in these games, but is it impossible to imagine seeing an Arab in the Arab country the game is set in, not trying to kill you? Honestly do you think Arab people are represented as much more than terrorists in video games? Because that's the point of the article. I dont think he is hoping to stop people from playing games where you fight against the taliban, i think once again he just wants to see a little more variety in how his race is depicted.

#1. He also wants to see fewer Arabs that are shooting at you.

#2. How often? This is the same as the 'bald space marine' argument- people talk about it more than it actually occurs. Of all the big name shooters out right now, MW is the only one that comes to mind that has arabs as the enemy, but even then you're mostly fighting against Russians.

#3. Black people are far, far more common than Arabs in the US.

#4. Civilians tend to get out when the bullets start flying. I don't remember a whole lot of German or French civilians popping up during COD2.

#5. Arabs are represented much more as terrorists because they dominate real-world terrorism.

 

[bojac6]

I dont think the author is saying that muslims and arabs aren't fair game, i don't think anyone is. But once again, if the only arabs you see are shooting at you, then he has a point. Even if its half of modern shooters, its still 99% of the arabs in video games. Yes if the KKK was real world problem we probably would see games about them, but once again, that wouldn't be a problem unless that was the only white people you saw in video games. You ignored the point of his article btw.

It's not even half of modern shooters: it's half of realistic military shooters. In other words, it's the games which are modeled after current real-world military conflicts. Muslims aren't popping up to kill me in Bioshock. It's one sub-genre of a sub-genre, the one which makes perfect sense to have them as villians.

Otherwise, they don't show up much because they are an extreme minority in the countries that make games, and most games take place in settings where an explicitly Muslim character doesn't make too much sense in the first place. How many Christian characters are there in video games?

I'm not ignoring the point of this article- in fact, I'm refusing to ignore a large portion of it that you want to gloss over.

I dont mean an explicitly Muslim character i'm referring to an Arab character. Even if you say its a sub genre of a sub genre, it doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong with that being the only depiction of Arabs. The author is saying he would like to see more Arabs that arent shooting at you. For something that only happens in a sub genre of a sub genre it is shown pretty often. The fact is Arabs are a minority in most of the countries games are made yes, but so are plenty of other people, if black people were only shown in games doing stereotypical things and nothing else it would be a problem. Yea it makes sense for Arab terrorists to be the villain in these games, but is it impossible to imagine seeing an Arab in the Arab country the game is set in, not trying to kill you? Honestly do you think Arab people are represented as much more than terrorists in video games? Because that's the point of the article. I dont think he is hoping to stop people from playing games where you fight against the taliban, i think once again he just wants to see a little more variety in how his race is depicted.

After noticing your post, I've gone back and read more of what you've been saying. Glad to see somebody else is thinking along similar lines as myself.

 

[You Can't Take the Sky From Me]

Well I do agree with many of the points raised in the article I disagree with the main thrust. Now I am a blindingly white male (seriously I nearly glow in the dark) but me name is so ethnicly Italian that most people mispronounce it and I am only third gen on my fathers side yet I don't get offended by the narrow veiw of Italians in the media and if I did it would realy show my own insecurities more than any thing else. I think that everyone should want to be viewed as an individual not as an Arab or an Italian or an anything.

 

[WaffleGod]

There are just as many whites as bad guys as any other race, so please get more offended from nothing.

But how many not-white (or, more to the point here, Arab or Muslim) HEROES are there in games?
Having lots of white villains isn't an issue if you've got lots of white heroes balancing things out...

How many Indians do you see in videogames? Not a lot huh? Yet there are 1 BILLION of them walking this earth.

Seriously. The arabs and "muslims" have been seen as the bad guys for several years now. Especially after 9/11. It's no surprise though. Can you look at the news and see anything positive being said about the middle east or the muslim world in general? All you can see is crazy politicians, car bombs and people waving flaggs while yelling "Death to America", "Death to Jews/Israel" or taliban forces fighting NATO troops. There's no way the West can sympathize with a religion/culture if all they see/hear about it is all bad and anti-western.

The only ones who can change that view is the Muslim world itself. And last time I checked, the Muslim world isn't exactly one big happy family either.

Umm, of course, it is possible that the us tv news suffers from the same narrow views. The idea that 'all we see on the news is bad stuff' has more to do with how dumb most corporate news outlets are than the fact that 'ZOMG everything in the muslim world is bad and you good muslims JUST AREN'T DOING ENOUGH to give yourselves a positive image!!!'

Well... Perhaps that's because every positive thing is overshadowed by all the negative things? . And trust me, it's not just the US tv that is "biased". European news channels don't portray the middle east as a good place either. Perhaps not as extreme as the US media, but still. But then again, what is there to report about the middle east or the muslim world? War, terrorism and then the occasional wack-job who says some crazy stuff about how Islam is the best thing in the entire world and that everything else is secondary to it.

 

[Falseprophet]

2) Re: Mafia II and the Italian gangster stereotype: While this, too, is offensive to some folks, I think there's a pretty huge difference (as some here have pointed out) in being the HERO, even when the hero's a criminal. Nowadays when moviemakers want a mobster they rarely go to the Italian American stereotype (there's a reason Mafia II's historical). Usually now we get the Albanian/Serbian/Russian etc. mob. But while Niko from GTA IV is a criminal and thus fits this new stereotype, he's also the POV character, the one we're rooting for and controlling. We get the moving story of how he got to be the way he is. We laugh at what he laughs at, get pissed off by the things that piss him off, etc. That's a huge difference. Similarly, Altair from Assasin's Creed is a cold-blooded killer trained by a fanatical sect -- on the surface, a Muslim stereotype if ever there was one. But he's humanized and fleshed out b/c he's the protagonist. That's different than an endless horde of might-as-well-be-orc towelheads who exist just to be mown down and deserve it because...well, they're *bad guys.*

Thanks for the great article. Interestingly, as an Italian-Canadian, I think I love Assassin's Creed II for many of the same reasons you liked the first game. Ezio Auditore is a lech and a killer trained by a criminal syndicate, basically the common Italian stereotype. But he is deeply devoted to his family, can rely on his extended family for assistance but feels obligated to repay them in kind, appreciates art and home improvement, and most of his criminal acts are against corrupt and evil authorities.

While I don't mind mobster games (or films, or shows) most of the time, and even count some among my favourites, it's nice once in a while to find an Italian character--especially a protagonist--who isn't just another goomba.

 

[MooseHowl]

Not gonna read this whole thread, since at 3+ pages it's already getting too long and divisive for me. However, I did read up to this:

This isn't some declaration of a future constitution of America, it's an article on a games website saying "Wouldn't it be cool to have a relatable Islamic character in a game? Here are some games that've missed this opportunity. Here are some games that have SEIZED this opportunity, including Triple-A titles. I think the latter are improved games by including such a character."

...And figured it should be Quoted For Truth. Well said.

 

[Cliff_m85]

Following people would like to have a word with you on stopping to complain and get over it: Russians, Germans.

Not funny, certainly not smart!

To deny that Germans and Russians are still villains after decades is just moronic

Germans certainly haven't gotten over it. I'd suggest that games featuring Nazis are illegal in Germany unless modified to remove any Nazi insignia.

But Muslims really need to realize that, just like Christians, spraying Apologetics around does not make your book 'peaceful and loving'. It's filled with hatred and allows a culture of discrimination to thrive on for a silly superstitious belief with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Ironically, it's "faith" that allows the racist to deem that all Muslims are immoral, which is absolutely untrue. However I simply just wished that the religious would own up to the immorality in their holy books rather than apologetically alter meanings and try to find loopholes.

 

[ShadowKirby]

I would encourage the muslims who are rich and despite what you think, there are many. To make their own video games. That is all.

If you want somthing done, do it yourself. Words to live by. If you don't like how your people are depicted in video games, well stop playing them and hup to it boy.

YEAH, the internet is no place to have discussions... :\

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Allow me to be more specific. Almost every game that has Muslim characters. I thought that was implicit in the argument, as games that do not feature Muslims are irrelevant to this discussion. Almost every game with Muslims portrays them as villains.

You're missing the point. Most games with muslims in the Tailan are military shooters based on the current dominant real-world conflicts, thus using them as villians. And there aren't nearly as many of them as you seem to think.

This idea that muslims are just popping up all over the place in video games to kill the player is nonsense. It's an extreme exaggeration used to make a handful of games look like a nation-wide witch hunt.

Because it's the most prevalent way Muslims are portrayed in games. You take the examples that exist. If he could point to more games that portrayed Muslims in different contexts, he probably would not have written the article.

"I think there should be more muslim heroes" and "I think there should be fewer muslim villains" are independent arguments. You can have one, either, both, or neither. You- and him- are flip-flopping between the two to try to make up for not being able to construct a solid ground for the latter.

If that is your argument, it has not be very clear.

Yes, actually, it has. The problem is that you've been refusing to acknowledge parts of Saladin's argument as existing.

Truth be told, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. If your point is simply that making the Taliban the bad guys in a game about fighting the Taliban is fitting? Yes, I agree entirely, nobody has really disagreed, why are we having this discussion?

Probably because the author does disagree about how the Taliban is portrayed.

 

[Jkudo]

I dont mean an explicitly Muslim character i'm referring to an Arab character. Even if you say its a sub genre of a sub genre, it doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong with that being the only depiction of Arabs.

Why not? Because a handful of people want something else? It's on them to either create what they want or demonstrate that they have enough spending power to justify somebody else creating it. It isn't anybody else's moral responsibility to spend 20 million dollars to create a video game that makes them feel good about himself.

The author is saying he would like to see more Arabs that arent shooting at you. For something that only happens in a sub genre of a sub genre it is shown pretty often. The fact is Arabs are a minority in most of the countries games are made yes, but so are plenty of other people, if black people were only shown in games doing stereotypical things and nothing else it would be a problem. Yea it makes sense for Arab terrorists to be the villain in these games, but is it impossible to imagine seeing an Arab in the Arab country the game is set in, not trying to kill you? Honestly do you think Arab people are represented as much more than terrorists in video games? Because that's the point of the article. I dont think he is hoping to stop people from playing games where you fight against the taliban, i think once again he just wants to see a little more variety in how his race is depicted.

#1. He also wants to see fewer Arabs that are shooting at you.

#2. How often? This is the same as the 'bald space marine' argument- people talk about it more than it actually occurs. Of all the big name shooters out right now, MW is the only one that comes to mind that has arabs as the enemy, but even then you're mostly fighting against Russians.

#3. Black people are far, far more common than Arabs in the US.

#4. Civilians tend to get out when the bullets start flying. I don't remember a whole lot of German or French civilians popping up during COD2.

#5. Arabs are represented much more as terrorists because they dominate real-world terrorism.

Edit:
lol most of this means nothing now, bojac layed it out pretty well.
I'm gonna read this article again cuz apparently, bloodsquirrel thinks the author wants taliban to be the good guys in a game, but i'm just not hearing it.

 

[wraithian]

Give it 20 years and it'll be a whole new boogeyman. If video games were at their peak (or around at all, in the following time periods mentioned), the, "big bad villain," would change depending on the environment.

20's-40's--Modern Warfare would have been about nothing more than blowing the bejeezus out of Nazis.

50's--Those pesky Russians, or to quote our buddy Liberty Prime (gottal love that Fallout 3 nationalist metallic giant), "Battle analysis: Red Chinese Victory: IMPOSSIBLE." Possibly the N. Koreans, as well.

60's-70's--Chinese, again, to a lesser degree. Russians. Vietnamese. Start of Arab fear.

80's--Mostly the Russians (they were our buddies at that point [snicker, giggle], so we could have some laughs at their expense, of course--plus, it had made good story telling in the past, so why not continue?). Arabs, just starting to come into the limelight, then fade again when we hit the 90's.

90's--Russians (I'm seeing a pattern here...). Less of, "Arab fear," and more, "Muslim fear," beginning (Somalia, then the Bosnia fiasco added to the confusion).

Early 00's-present--Arabs, especially of the Muslim variety are today's, "big bad." Not a racist remark, please do not misunderstand... It's the actions of a few that have fed the fear mongering machine known as modern media. But, with every boogeyman that society creates/recognizes/imagines/outright slanders, there is always some good story tellin' fodder in it...

If I had to guess, come the early 2010's, we're going start seeing some more games focused around North Korean and South American, "big bads." (I'm looking at you, "Mercenaries," franchise...)

All I'm saying is to step back, realize that games aren't themselves inherently racist/phobic as much as they are a symptom of our current sociological climate, and that this fear, too, will pass...

 

[Powerman88]

Hey Saladin, first off very interesting read. It was really nice to hear your perspective. I think you hit some points right on the head and some points kind of fell flat.

I think my biggest problem with the Muslim community is that it seems to only demand respect from the west without doing much to earn said respect. From our perspective it is quite troubling to read about the recent riots in Iran over the elections and how the government handled it, or the laws in Saudi Arabia requiring women to all wear burkah's covering their entire bodies and faces, or reading about how the Taliban will kill a woman for leaving her house without being escorted by her man. It really seems to me that we in the west are expected to be tolerant of the Muslim community, but a lot of them seem to refuse to be tolerant of us.

It is really tough to be tolerant of Muslims and the middle east when basic civil rights of groups like women, gays, and Jews are not recognized.

Indeed, the Western media has a troubled relationship with the Middle East, and much of it can be a kneejerk reaction to Islam's rising presence in global politics. It would serve us well to try to reach a deeper understanding with the Middle East and understand how human they are, just as much as the rest of us.

On the other hand, keep in mind that Middle Easterns are sort of to blame too. A lot of Americans are calling it like they see it because, quite frankly, most of what they see isn't very pleasant. Since very few people are unwilling to recognize how much of a problem Israel is in relation to all this extremism. Since Islam has nothing much in the way of a centralized authority willing to declare what's right and wrong, the opportunity is always there for the message to be hijacked and presented as something it isn't necessarily. Americans tend to forget that the religious rhetoric and motivations of militants, extremists, terrorists, freedom fighters, or whatnot, are expressions so fundamentally immeshed with politics as to be rendered unrecognizable to Islamic orthodoxy. The Middle East is embroiled in confrontational politics in the form of Israel's continued racism, aggression, and expansionism, and since Islam, in all its forms, is basically the one commonl variable the Arabs and Palestinians have, it's their quickest, most digestible way to channel their political grievances. It's a mistake to equate Islam with the actions we Americans see, because they're ultimately expressions of earthly concerns that anyone in the position of a Middle Eastern, religious or not, would at least understand, if not condone.

Muslims and Middle Easterns in general have to put in more effort to clarify this to the West, and the West needs to take steps towards not being Israel's ***** and supporting Middle Eastern dictatorships. That's the only way we're truly going to get past this thick cultural barrier.

I hate having this conversation over internet forums, but I see it as my duty. I reference all my facts from the BBC news site (as flawed as it may be). My question would be to you is how many muslims live, vote, and earn a decent living and have a decent standard of life in Israel? Go check I'll wait. How many Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, or Shinto live, vote, and have a decent standard of living in Gaza? You can probably guess why. The problem with the palestinians and Gaza/Israel isn't the big bad jews that want to conquer the world, its that the Palestinians elect Hamas, a terrorist organization according to the US, EU, and UN, instead of electing the moderates in the Fatah party. Why is it even Egypt, a nice moderate state, has a closed border with Gaza? It's not because the Palestinians are a peace loving people who just want to live in perfect harmony. Their leaders have said time and time again they won't be happy until Israel is wiped off the map.

Thanks again Saladin and please write more interesting and well thought out articles!

 

[ArchAngelKira]

you take on down pass 'em around 268 Muslims in My Monitor

 

[Brian Name]

I love Assassin's Creed for the same reasons! It's all a mire of various philosophy and as a study of attitudes to imperialism you can do no better than listening to the dialogues between Altair and his victims. For all the games faults those sections are superbly written.

But I have to defend True Lies, man. That movie was an intentional piss-take. I don't think it should be taken so seriously as regards race seeing as it was a satire of the action movie genre. A lot of action movies may well be guilty of poor representation. But True Lies, if anything, was partly a criticism of that.