she basically jacks the airship you steal from Comstock and coerces you into helping her on the vague promise that she will get you out of Columbia if you get guns for her, even Booker makes a comment that he doesn't trust her and he's only really getting the guns because it's their only real option at the moment.
Except, when you finally do as she asks and get her her guns (with some multiverse-hopping tomfoolery), she reneges on the deal, and you have to kill them all anyway (including her) to take back the airship.
Why didn't we do this sooner?
In fact, it would've been EASIER to forcibly take back the airship BEFORE you got them their guns, since they would not have put up as much of a fight.
Even better, just find another airship. The city is full of them.
So I call bull on it being the "only real option" at that point.
It's the only real option as far as the game is concerned. Is it railroady and contrived? Yeah, I'll agree it's a hamhanded set up, but the game doesn't really give you a reasonable way to take the airship back by force, and the setup makes it pretty clear that getting the guns is the fastest way to get Daisy to show back up. Whether he would have just given her the guns, or tryed to attack her to take the airship when she came to pick up the guns is anyone's guess, since the whole alternate dimension thing screws all the plans up.
Remember, Booker is unconscious when Daisy takes the airship over, and she throws Booker off it before he can make an attempt to arm himself and attack her. Once he's off the ship he's still unarmed, and has no way to try and track Daisy down; at this point, the Vox Populi is still an underground resistance group. The Easiest way Booker has to track Daisy down is to get the guns and set up the trade in the hopes that she'll show up with the airship.
As for getting another airship. Yeah, I got nothing here, this is pretty much all story contrivance, and I had some issues with it too. You can maybe make an argument that after reuniting with Elizabeth she is coercing Booker into helping the Vox out of idealism, but the whole need to even try and steal Comstock's personal airship to begin with is kind of sketchy. There's really nothing in the game to indicate why Comstock's airship is anything special or different from the tons of others in the city, even those floating police ships still look like they could at least make it to the ground, where Booker and Elizabeth could then just catch a train or boat to wherever they were going.
The first time you switch dimensions why didn't Booker just take Elizabeth to Paris? He is now in a different dimension where he has zero obligations as far as he knows. He doesn't know that the people who gave him the mission could follow him, so in his mind, he can't even turn in the mission anymore.
Though the one I hated most was the ending. (note that Booker and Elizabeth/Ana "A" refers to the characters from the starting dimension). Sorry but killing Booker A after he fathered Elizabeth/Ana A would not have any affect on Elizabath/Ana A, let alone all of the Elizabeths. If somebody killed my dad today, that would not make me cease to exist. That made zero sense. It almost made dividing-by-zero sense.
No time travel story actually works if you assume that time travel works in any logical way. Therefore, in order to make time travel work in a story you have to make the assumption that time travel works the way it has been presented in the story, and once you do that there are no plot holes in Bioshock because time travel is working in exactly the way that time travel works for that story.
If/when humans actually figure out time travel we can worry about plot holes caused by time travel being presented incorrectly in media, but until then the very existence of time travel in a story negates the creation of plot holes, unless the time travel presented in the story doesn't make sense in accordance with the in-universe explanation of time travel.
Since the mechanics of time/dimensional travel is never explained in Bioshock Infinite you can't say that the story has plot holes because time travel is being used incorrectly.
Even using that logic. That doesn't mean the story wasn't absolutely awful to begin with. One more thing Bioshock Infinite did (and 1 as well) is you going through so much fucking effort to help someone to "progress" the story. Only for them to turn on you instantly and having to have a fight with them. The leader of the Vox chick was a prime example.
Except she had good reason to turn on you, in her timeline you were dead, and the fact that she saw you there, alive, freaked her the hell out. It makes sense in context. It would be much more weird for you to go to a different timeline where your character was dead and have people behave like nothing happened and that it's totally normal for you to be alive.
As for getting another airship. Yeah, I got nothing here, this is pretty much all story contrivance, and I had some issues with it too. You can maybe make an argument that after reuniting with Elizabeth she is coercing Booker into helping the Vox out of idealism, but the whole need to even try and steal Comstock's personal airship to begin with is kind of sketchy. There's really nothing in the game to indicate why Comstock's airship is anything special or different from the tons of others in the city, even those floating police ships still look like they could at least make it to the ground, where Booker and Elizabeth could then just catch a train or boat to wherever they were going.
Even worse is how, on your way to get your airship back from Fitzroy, you have to take down a large airship that's laying suppressing fire down on a bridge you have to cross.
This airship is bigger and stronger (I think?) than the one you're going to get back.
But anyway, whichever way they try to escape the city, they run into the Songbird problem. So I guess it doesn't really matter.
The whole Vox thing about "Get us our guns and you'll get your ship back", is just a way of artificially increasing the length of the game.
The fact that the airship you take down is bigger is actually part of the reason why you can't take it. The bigger the airship the bigger the crew needed to pilot it. The reason you want Comstock's airship is that it's small enough that you can pilot it by yourself, and Booker's idea is that if he has Comstock's airship the police will let him go wherever he wants.
2) Little Lamplight. A community that has existed for the last 200 years in isolation despite ejecting citizens as soon as they reach puberty. If you need this explaining to you then I officially give up.
If I remember correctly children from Big Town are sent to Little Lamplight. Would make sense because there are no kids in Big Town and no adults in Little Lamplight.
OT- Far Cry 3's ending.
The endings are so fucking jarring. Why the fuck would I choose to kill the people I went through hell to rescue? And, more importantly, why the fuck does Brody (?)... the player character go emo and start acting like a pussy if you chose to stand by your friends?
The endings are so fucking jarring. Why the fuck would I choose to kill the people I went through hell to rescue? And, more importantly, why the fuck does Brody (?)... the player character go emo and start acting like a pussy if you chose to stand by your friends?
Seconding this. Not for the same reasons, just general bullshitty-ness.
What's even more infuriating is the lead writer crying that we all just "didn't understand" what he was doing and his work was really good. Hey fuckwit, if no one understands your creative work, it means that it's shit. End of story. You can't write. Cop it on the chin like a man instead of complaining about your audience.
The endings are so fucking jarring. Why the fuck would I choose to kill the people I went through hell to rescue? And, more importantly, why the fuck does Brody (?)... the player character go emo and start acting like a pussy if you chose to stand by your friends?
Seconding this. Not for the same reasons, just general bullshitty-ness.
What's even more infuriating is the lead writer crying that we all just "didn't understand" what he was doing and his work was really good. Hey fuckwit, if no one understands your creative work, it means that it's shit. End of story. You can't write. Cop it on the chin like a man instead of complaining about your audience.
The game did a really shitty job at making me want to stay on the island with these psychos, Jason coping a whiny attitude for all of 3 scenes does not suddenly justify turning around and killing his friends and family just because the crazy lady whose spent the whole game molesting and drugging you asks you to. Especially after the much better written scenes where Jason goes to really incredible lengths to rescue his brother, and they have the more emotional scenes on the helicopter, why the hell would the game just ask you to kill them 3 seconds after establishing the length Jason would actually go through to rescue them, he literally has no reason to do so beyond a few half-hearted lines about his friends not understanding how totally awesome it is to kill random evil mercenaries.
It comes off like one of those shitty moral choice systems that seems to equate evil with being a douchebag or psychopath for no adequately explained reason or benefit.
The writer whining about how that choice was totally how the game should have been and how it's like totally about subverting the standard gamer power fantasy of being the hero and getting the girl (even though nobody I knew had the kill ending as their first choice) certainly gave everything that lovely veneer of pretentiousness)
1) Vault 87. Computers in Vault 87 specifically mention the FEV virus wanting to "level the playing field" by converting both males and females into androgynous subjects, yet in Fallout 1 you defeat The Master by revealing to him that Super Mutants aren't a viable branch of human evolution as whilst the males retain the ability to breed, females are rendered sterile, leading The Master to pull the plug on his experiments and end the Super Mutant threat. A seemingly small change, but one that invalidates the ending of F1 and by extension invalidates the entirety of F2 as the Vault Dweller would not have survived to found the tribe living in Arroyo.
2) Little Lamplight. A community that has existed for the last 200 years in isolation despite ejecting citizens as soon as they reach puberty. If you need this explaining to you then I officially give up.
1- There are two super mutants; The original was created by the FEV, and the second are those created by the FEV and further mutated by radiation exposure.
2- The ejectees from Lamplight appear to be in their late teens, it's conceivable that once they hit puberty, they... conceive the next generation and leave one year after childbirth.
It doesn't help that next scene is a full month later, with no explanation exactly what happened during that period of time. Apparently Cage just couldn't be assed to develop that particular relationship, so he just goes "Time Skip!"
It seems then, that Mr Cage is more concerned about photo-realistic nudity than coherent storytelling. He should just be honest about it and make a porn game. At least in those games, no one pays attention to the story.
Even worse is how, on your way to get your airship back from Fitzroy, you have to take down a large airship that's laying suppressing fire down on a bridge you have to cross.
This airship is bigger and stronger (I think?) than the one you're going to get back.
The fact that the airship you take down is bigger is actually part of the reason why you can't take it. The bigger the airship the bigger the crew needed to pilot it. The reason you want Comstock's airship is that it's small enough that you can pilot it by yourself, and Booker's idea is that if he has Comstock's airship the police will let him go wherever he wants.
People use that excuse all the time "well the character should have just stolen 'X' from the police" (x representing a car, helicopter, etc) when talking about plot holes in games and movies. Thing is, if you think about it, it seems pretty stupid to steal anything from the cops. You know what's going to motivate the police to catch you even more than just committing crimes? Committing crimes that make the police look like a bunch of idiots, you know, like stealing one of their vehicles.
Not to mention the fact that Comstock has completely free reign of Columbia, unlike the police. Comstock's airship can go anywhere no questions asked with no questions asked, whereas Booker doesn't know the patrol zones for the police airships, and if he stole one and flew it somewhere it didn't belong it would draw suspicion, the cops would radio the airship, find out Booker is flying it and try to blow it out of the sky (or send songbird after it).
The first time you switch dimensions why didn't Booker just take Elizabeth to Paris? He is now in a different dimension where he has zero obligations as far as he knows. He doesn't know that the people who gave him the mission could follow him, so in his mind, he can't even turn in the mission anymore.
Though the one I hated most was the ending. (note that Booker and Elizabeth/Ana "A" refers to the characters from the starting dimension). Sorry but killing Booker A after he fathered Elizabeth/Ana A would not have any affect on Elizabath/Ana A, let alone all of the Elizabeths. If somebody killed my dad today, that would not make me cease to exist. That made zero sense. It almost made dividing-by-zero sense.
remember elizabutt can only open tears in specific places
number 2:
i dont think the ending implies all the elizabuuts are death, but instead that their lives are not ruined by comstock's rising, by killing him during the baptism, all possible instances in which booker takes the baptism results in his death, therefore no comstock
I don't notice plot holes much...but when I do...holy crap...
I don't know what I hated more about Dragon Age 2, the terrible lazy design, phasing in enemies, the reused rooms over and over and over and over AND BLOODY OVER PISS OFF SAME CAVE I'VE BEEN GOING INTO SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME! Or the atrocious plot holes...like how the guy narrating the story somehow knows things that he in no way would know how the event took place...HOW DOES HE KNOW AND WHY IS HE TELLING THIS CHICK HOW HAWK SCREWED THIS OTHER GIRL!? What was the point of that!?
Or better yet, you know how during the ENTIRE game mages have been trying to prove that they aren't all blood magic using lunatics? WELL THE LEADER OF THE MAGES JUST DECIDED TO TURN HIMSELF INTO AN ABOMINATION...JUST BECAUSE...why the hell did he even DO THAT!? WHAT IN THE HELL WAS THE POINT!? You try to prove your innocence the ENTIRE BLOODY GAME and you just go "Well since they're so hell bent on proving that I am a blood magic using lunatic...THEN THAT'S JUST WHAT I'LL BECOME!"
WHAT KIND OF LOGICAL SENSE DOES THAT EVEN MAKE!? COME ON!
Also blowing up the chantry...THIS DOESN'T HELP ANYONE, ANDERS, YOU FUCKING MORON! AHHHH!
This game betrayed all that I loved and held dear about DA:O...I still powered through the game despite it all...all I have to say is the next dragon age game better make up for this atrocity and make up for it good...there are alot of dues Bioware has to make up for now between this and ME:3 and that tripe ending...
Apologies for the outburst, but if any of you have played the game you know why I'm so mad...terrible memories...
Even worse is how, on your way to get your airship back from Fitzroy, you have to take down a large airship that's laying suppressing fire down on a bridge you have to cross.
This airship is bigger and stronger (I think?) than the one you're going to get back.
The fact that the airship you take down is bigger is actually part of the reason why you can't take it. The bigger the airship the bigger the crew needed to pilot it. The reason you want Comstock's airship is that it's small enough that you can pilot it by yourself, and Booker's idea is that if he has Comstock's airship the police will let him go wherever he wants.
I may be a bit fuzzy on this point, but does the game actually establish that songbird can track Elizabeth in any way other than through the notes being played that summon it to her general vicinity? As it is, it looks like Elizabeth and Booker can get away scot free as long as they stay away from any of those clockwork statues that play that song. The one conveniently located on the airship is what screws over their escape attempt, but I seriously doubt that every airship and police barge has a conveniently placed songbird summoning instrument, and even if they do, what is actually stopping Booker and Elizabeth from just smashing the hell out of it to stop it from playing. It's apparently a specific series of notes, so even a single bullet hole in one of those pipes should make it incapable of actually summoning Songbird.
Can I just say Modern Warfare 3 and not name the plot holes? Between the unlimited Russians, Makarov being able to overthrow the government and Soap's magic healing powers I think I'd be unable to thoroughly explain them all.
1) Debatable - kind of. Also from the Faollut wiki: "Those who would not evolve would be forcibly sterilized and allowed to live out their lives in peace, though without the ability to pass on their imperfections to the next generation." The implications of this statement being that the sterility (or otherwise) of Super Mutants has been changed over the years to accommodate changing canon. Bear in mind that the wiki page attempts to combine all sources rather than favouring one over the other. Whilst I accept the current revision of the lore, I remain fundamentally opposed to changes in lore on principal.
2) Whilst Little Lamplight can in theory survive on it's own, it does require the subconscious acceptance of paedophilia, which however you wrap it up is repugnant. And even if one were to accept this enforced early maturity the player is still being asked to accept that a mother who had her child at age 14 would abandon it at the age of two because of a rule passed by a bunch of kids. Ie not fucking likely.
1. Uhh no, what you are quoting was the master said his plan was, before he found out super mutants were sterile. Nothing in there suggests that super mutants became unsterilized, only that the master's plan didn't include something he didn't know about.
2. pedophilia is an adult doing children, not children doing other children. Also, trying to squeeze modern day, real world, human actions into a world is that fundamentally different and trying to say "IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE" is a flawed argument. Its like saying that people raised in cults wont follow the cults rules, even if they are very off base from modern society, and yet, people do.
Nimzabaat said:
Wrong.
"Present day" Booker, father of Ana, allows Ana to drown him. There was no going back in time to find the pre-Ana Booker at all. That's why it didn't make sense. It might have worked if Ana had taken "present" Booker into the past and Booker killed his younger self. But they didn't even attempt that. Then, to make even less sense, they added other Ana's that this Booker had nothing to do with and somehow because "reasons" they vanished as well.
Not wrong, when they went back in time future Booker merged with his past self in that instance, like when Booker went to the universe where he had died, he merged memories with the one who had died. He was both "present" and "past" Booker at the same time due to universe hoping merger stuff.
Ultratwinkie said:
Still a plot hole: Vault tek wasn't in charge of FEV development. That was West Tek, the equivalent of Black Mesa in the Fallout world.
West tek wouldn't have given their biggest potential money maker to a bunker building company. These guys invented power armor for christ sakes.
FEV only became viable in the last year of the old world, where it was ordered to be quickly moved to Mariposa to be tested on humans.
FEV would need to exist decades in advance so Vault Tek can build the bunker. They were very slow and inefficient. They wouldn't be able to build or even modify a bunker in less than a year. hell, I think that they only had a few months to get everything ready. Including finding civilian scientists that somehow are skilled enough to deal with a top secret bio weapon.
Its not a plot hole in the slightest since both West-Tek and Vault-Tek were so heavily tied to the Enclave and the rest of the pre-war government that they were basically just branches of it. The idea that the two companies were still "separate" is laughable.
Not only that, but its basic scientific strategy to not throw all of your experiments into one singular location, in order to
A. Prevent everything from being destroyed in one attack
B. To allow for different minds in different places to tackle problems from multiple viewpoints, thus allowing for a greater possible chance at success.
And Vault-Tec not only had some of the most brilliant pre-war minds, but also the safest known nuclear proof shelters. Frankly, its more of a plothole that other companies didn't petition Vault-Tec to let them move their greatest scientific experiments into other vaults, then that West-Tek moved their FEV into one.
and no, FEV would not have to exist "decades" beforehand, nothing about any of that makes a lick of sense. Not to mention that the D.C. vaults were built years before the bombs fell anyways.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Citadel_terminal_entries
Vault 76
Starting Construction Date...
February 2065
Ending Construction Date...
October 2069
Vault 87
Starting Construction Date...
May 2066
Ending Construction Date...
May 2071
Vault 92
Starting Construction Date...
May 2062
Ending Construction Date...
May 2068
All of those questions are answered in-game via dialog.
1. The kids go to Bigtown because they are lied too in LL and told its great, they dont know how bad it is until they get there.
2. They stay there because they neither have the ability to get to Rivet city, and Megaton has denied them entrance, so they have nowhere else to go.
3. They cant stay in LL, there is neither the space nor the food to accommodate any larger number of people then they currently maintain, which is why they started exiling people in the first place.
4. It does when you take a look at any real world cult with similar mental conditioning.
You really have no idea what you are talking about
1. FEV was spawned from the PVP, which existed years before the war began.
2. Vault-Tek was FAR from the lowest rung of the governments anything, given them being the only company on earth that was prvy to the great vault experiment plan, they were, if anyhting, on the highest inner circles.
3. the so called executive order was a lie, guess what, humans aren't truthful.
4. FEV wasnt discovered a year before the war began, it was eing researched YEARS before it began.
I sugeest you read the wiki's FEV page, and replay the game,s you are very heavily confsed about basic aspect of Fallout's timeline.
It's not a plot hole, But I got confused by the games insistence that the blood mages get unfairly persecuted by the templars, and the blood mages habit of acting like this was the case...which they would then follow up with the very behaviour they are being accused off.
"It's so unfair, we aren't evil!"
"What are you doing with that sack of kittens?"
"Skinning them to make a cape from the kitten soft hides and using the entrails to summon horrors from the beyond"
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