Neil Druckman tries to mobilise TLOU 2 fans to vote for it for player choice in The Game Awards Player vote category

Casual Shinji

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I think this video was very good at explaining why TLOU2 is kind of a bad game without going into the story much. He explains very well what made the game itself kind of frustrating for me, but he articulates it better. It's long so I don't blame anyone for not watching but if you got time on a drive or something it's worth it.

Yeah, I saw this, and I do generally agree with it. But there are some things about it that don't stick too well for me. Like, Naughty Dog's game design IS in a way outdated, but only in regards to how it connects to the story it tries to tell. It's a weird negative influence that both the gameplay and story have on eachother. The gameplay is quite good, and has more range than Naughty Dog has had since Jak and Daxter, but at the same time the gameplay is too rigid to tell a grounded story that isn't overly dark, locking the characters in this moody prison.

Can't say I agree with his opinion on MGS3 though. The Sorrow sequence always felt like a gimmick that didn't in anyway make me reflect on my violent ways except for whether or not I would actually recognize some of them based on how I killed them. TLoU2 did more for me in that area. Not so much in the 'oh no, brutal violence' kind of way, but more in 'Lev and Yara are good people who just want to escape this crazy cult, and I'm killing members of this crazy cult to save them, but those people I'm killing might very well be in the same boat as Yara and Lev but are too scared to go against what they've been taught. And here I am murdering them.'
Also, MGS3 's stealth mechanics are certainly deeper than TLoU2 's, but in the latter the stealth is a malleable tool as opposed to the former's where the rigid controls make you fear the allmighty alert phase like the wrath of god. I was actually able to play around with the stealth in TLoU2.
It could also boil down to the factor that TLoU2 wasn’t by any means a “feel good” kind of game. It also wasn’t revenge porn/fantasy/etc. even though the gameplay and marketing kinda pigeo-holed it as such. Its underlying message ironically mirrored a light back on the kind of vitriol the game itself received, and in itself acted as a litmus test for the player themselves in place of Ellie and Abby. Both characters initially found themselves with strong motives for revenge and hate, but ultimately came out the other side with a greater peace and understanding after being pushed through their own trial by fire.

The structure, mechanics, etc. can be picked apart but at the end of the day as a story-driven game, that was the biggest aspect and what people are recognizing.
I know TLoU2 would never have been a feel good game (although honestly it would've been far more interesting had they tried their hand at it), but in as dark a universe that TLoU takes place in, deliberately going for 'dark' I feel tips the scale into the obnoxious. It doesn't feel like there's anything for the dark to bounce off of, resulting in it just becoming a bunch of white noise.

I also feel the game really should've ended with Ellie killing Abby. Not because I wanted Abby to die, but because I feel it would've been a much more interesting way for it to reflect onto the player. By that point Ellie is a horrible killer anyway, whether she kills Abby or not. A lot of players would want to kill Abby, because I don't think I have to tell you how hated Abby is as a character in the gaming community. So having the player want to and succeed in killing this person who has become weak and emaciated, unwilling to even really fight and barely recognizeable as the person she once was would've worked as a nice mirror I think.

I also think it would've functioned as a genius contrast with the first fight between Ellie and Abby. Where in that fight both characters are probably at their peak physical condition, and eventhough Ellie is the main character and our main goal in the first 15 hours or so of the game was to kill Abby as Ellie, we play this fight as Abby instead. And with Ellie losing and the player controlling Abby, both Ellie as well as the player are purposefully deprived of the satisfaction of fighting and beating Abby. Possibly fueling the desire to beat/kill her even more, only to have our fight as Ellie against Abby be one where Abby is half alive and a shell of her former self, again robbing the player and Ellie of this prize. By having Ellie stop herself and realize... whatever, I think it flubs this.


I still love how that first fight was set up though. That was really good stuff and probably the most interesting gaming moment of 2020 for me.
 
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Houseman

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I still love how that first fight was set up though. That was really good stuff and probably the most interesting gaming moment of 2020 for me.
Hasn't it been done before, with a few a differences, though? Like in MGS4?
 

Houseman

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Everything has been done before. Doesn't make the moment any worse, because not everyone plays/watches everything.
True. Also, I misread. I thought it said "fist fight".
I was thinking of that trope where exhausted people take turns throwing weak punches at each-other.
 

bluegate

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So having the player want to and succeed in killing this person who has become weak and emaciated, unwilling to even really fight and barely recognizeable as the person she once was would've worked as a nice mirror I think.
I'd wager a bet that anyone who, after having played through the extensive bit with Abby in the game, is still gleefully looking for revenge against her at the end of the game would be incapable of recognizing that as a mirror.
 
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Casual Shinji

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I'd wager a bet that anyone who, after having played through the extensive bit with Abby in the game, is still gleefully looking for revenge against her at the end of the game would be incapable of recognizing that as a mirror.
Possibly, but then I found most people also misunderstood the ending of the first game.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Sadly i think The Last of Us 2 is winning even among some of the public because it looks good. Shiny graphics win over people who dont know any better.

This is one of those cases in which the general gaming public doesnt play a lot of shit, let alone pays enough attention to things like story and mechanics to know any better.

The same "gamers" who buy Madden every year and fuel microtransactions because thats just what you dont in those games. People who think Call of Duty is brilliant because it is so pretty looking.
How would this be any different if Final Fantasy 7 Remake or Ghost of Tsushima had won though? Would them winning NOT be a case of the prettiest game winning, or the most nostalgic, or the most big open-world?
Any of those 3 winning is a pretty big indictment on how much of a joke the game awards are.

Yahtzee and Jack did a podcast about how much of a joke the game awards are from top to bottom. It's just basically the big publishers scratching each other's backs and nothing else.

 
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CriticalGaming

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Any of those 3 winning is a pretty big indictment on how much of a joke the game awards are.

Yahtzee and Jack did a podcast about how much of a joke the game awards are from top to bottom. It's just basically the big publishers scratching each other's backs and nothing else.

Yeah true enough. But people still pay attention to them and put value in them, which keeps them relevant regardless of the asskissing behind the scenes. Much like the Oscars.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Any of those 3 winning is a pretty big indictment on how much of a joke the game awards are.
I'd say Persona 5 being nominated for best RPG again despite already winning it in '17, and there being a category for most anticipated game is WAY more of an indictment. TLoU2, Ghost of Tsushima, and Final Fantasy 7 Remake were at least games that came out this year, had large critical acclaim, and sold very well; that's more than enough to make them eligible for a GOTY in my book. In as much as you can objectively judge a game of the year, which you can't really, which is why it's a good thing most outlets have their own lists.
 

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Yeah true enough. But people still pay attention to them and put value in them, which keeps them relevant regardless of the asskissing behind the scenes. Much like the Oscars.
At least the Oscars don't have almost exclusively "AAA movies" as their best movies of the year. And at least they have the show in the beginning of next year so all 2020 movies can actually be considered. I'm not saying the Oscars are some sacred judge of movies but the Oscars usually just throw a single bone to the "best" popular movie like Black Panther for Best Picture whereas the VGAs might throw a single bone to some innovative indie game while the rest of the list are AAAs.

I'd say Persona 5 being nominated for best RPG again despite already winning it in '17, and there being a category for most anticipated game is WAY more of an indictment. TLoU2, Ghost of Tsushima, and Final Fantasy 7 Remake were at least games that came out this year, had large critical acclaim, and sold very well; that's more than enough to make them eligible for a GOTY in my book. In as much as you can objectively judge a game of the year, which you can't really, which is why it's a good thing most outlets have their own lists.
I always saw the Video Game Awards (since it started as the Spike VGAs) being equivalent to the MTV Movie Awards (or any MTV Awards really) where it is all about marketing bullshit and nothing to take seriously at all, it's just there for spectacle if you like that. Thus why most anticipated game is an award. What AAA game doesn't come out to critical acclaim? You really have to fuck up royally to get anything below an 80. Ghost of Tsushima has an 83 Meta, which isn't critically acclaimed for video games. Desperados 3 got an 86 Meta, where's its GOTY nomination? It's just pushed into the tiny SIM/Strategy category that are smooshed together for what reason? Any game that comes out is eligible for GOTY.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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At least the Oscars don't have almost exclusively "AAA movies" as their best movies of the year. And at least they have the show in the beginning of next year so all 2020 movies can actually be considered. I'm not saying the Oscars are some sacred judge of movies but the Oscars usually just throw a single bone to the "best" popular movie like Black Panther for Best Picture whereas the VGAs might throw a single bone to some innovative indie game while the rest of the list are AAAs.


I always saw the Video Game Awards (since it started as the Spike VGAs) being equivalent to the MTV Movie Awards (or any MTV Awards really) where it is all about marketing bullshit and nothing to take seriously at all, it's just there for spectacle if you like that. Thus why most anticipated game is an award. What AAA game doesn't come out to critical acclaim? You really have to fuck up royally to get anything below an 80. Ghost of Tsushima has an 83 Meta, which isn't critically acclaimed for video games. Desperados 3 got an 86 Meta, where's its GOTY nomination? It's just pushed into the tiny SIM/Strategy category that are smooshed together for what reason? Any game that comes out is eligible for GOTY.
It's a popularity contest like you said. This was the most it could muster apparently -

Desperados III received "generally favorable" reviews, according to review aggregator Metacritic. It was nominated for the category of Best Sim/Strategy game at The Game Awards 2020.

Desperados III - THE BEST GAME YOU SUCK AT Award: Desperados III - Steam News (steampowered.com)

Desperados 3 Global Game Awards Nominee 2020 (game-debate.com)
 
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Gyrobot

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Guess Druckmann doesn’t have anything to worry about his game not getting proper recognition now.
Well gaming is art and in a trying time like 2020 was. It proved that you shouldn't run away from your fucking problems and cover your ears and accept that society deserved the stomaching cramping so it can flush out all the toxins.