Netflix's "The Punisher", first 20 minutes

[jademunky]

As a guy who really likes the use of the Punisher character when properly used in comics to contrast him with actual superheroes (superpowered and not), I don't think I can really bring myself to continue to watch the series on Netflix. What little i've watched so far seems to be setting up an idiot-ball plot involving a young coworker of Frank's getting in way over his head with some mobsters due to him

Spoiler

dropping his fucking wallet during a heist which spills out to reveal his drivers license which the obviously not-to-be-fucked-with-generic-gangster characters can read from upwards of 8 feet away) and then just stares at it for fucking ever and makes no move to conceal it like a person might do, or, y'know, not bring it.

Who exactly is so needy for friends that they go along with armed robbery of the mob just to get along with the guys?

and BTW, just a a test, throw your own drivers license on the ground in front of you. Can you read it? Yeah me either.

So anyway, there was supposed to be a point to this thread. Is there anything worth watching if I continue? Does it do anything besides, "Frank needs new people to murder"?

 

[spacemutant IV]

That first episode is basically a stand-alone.

I watched through it and I think it was worth it, though it wasn't perfect. Actually if it was just "Frank needs new people to murder", I'd be fine with that, as that's what I am there for. But the story actually kept me interested for the most part, even though at some point it took a detour that I didn't appreciate. There is one really stupid episode doing this shit I hate where it shows the aftermath first and then goes the "x hours earlier" route. This is such a trope by now, it was adressed in Rick and Morty I think. But it's one episode, so who cares.

There are slow episodes, but there is also some serious punishing in this show, and in these moments it doesn't hold back, which I do appreciate.

Cinematography, lighting, and set design/choices looks cheap sometimes, which does devalue the thing a little bit. Well, it's a Netflix Marvel show, what can you do. The fight scenes are good for the most part, though there is one choke hold/neck break that looks ridiculously weak, and another neck grip later where you can also clearly see that it's not real. Some little things like that could have been executed better, but again, the fights are mostly good.

So the violence looks sometimes real, sometimes over the top (which I like with the Punisher), poorly executed in some few cases, but always a bit cartoony in that Frank Castle can be beaten to a bloody pulp in one episode and be up and running in the next.

They are "keeping it real" by toning down the use of the skull on his chest as well as making but slight use of his public persona as "The Punisher", which I didn't like. The origin story with a personal villain in this season is fine, as they need to set the whole thing up, but I hope that Jigsaw will not return too quickly. The Punisher spent this season cleaning his own dirty laundry all over New York, murdering everyone in his path, so next season I'd prefer him just cleaning the streets and tackling some bad guys he has no personal history with.

That's all I can think of right now. Overall I'd recommend it.

 

[Kyrian007]

Yeah, that first episode... its over and never brought back again.

Spoiler

That kid... Frank tells him to leave town and as far as the story is concerned, he did. They bring it up one time, in a background news report about a murder/suicide and that's the end of that story.

Its just a way of establishing that even though Frank supposedly left "The Punisher" behind... he would suit up again to protect somebody and punish wrong-doers. The idea actually dovetails pretty nicely with the final scene of the season. So, yes the first episode is a closed stand alone episode. It could easily have taken place weeks or months before the rest of the series and would fit in just as easily if it fell into the timeline even a year or so AFTER the season.

As far as the rest of it. It was fine. I didn't like it quite as much as the parts of Frank's story in DD2. It didn't have bad guys as awesome as DD season 1, Jessica Jones, or the first half of Luke Cage (Cottonmouth was way more interesting than Diamondback.) And as far as the action goes... it was far too gun based. I know its The Punisher... but I'd rather see more melee or hand-to-hand than the gun battles where the storyboarding used headshots like a writer uses a comma. I swear there's a scene where one of the bad guys walks through a series of rooms unleashing headshot after headshot while moving, shooting at moving targets and hitting with every shot one bullet a piece. In one hallway he switches to center mass on two targets... then headshots them while they are down as he walks past. Sorry, even trained people miss. Apparently the Punisher is up against a metahuman with gun based powers. The villains just didn't deliver. But the story was ok, focusing especially on Frank as basically a mess of mental trauma and blurring the line between vigilante and criminal with a story pausing side plot as an equally psychologically damaged reactionary goes fully Tim McVeigh terrorist leaving the audience to have to piece together why Frank is really any different (he is, the comparison goes well for Frank... but it does make the viewer at least have to justify an answer.)

 

[stroopwafel]

I loved it. I really enjoy the comics as well and this stayed very true to the Garth Ennis run in style and tone. It was cool to see how Frank's original Vietnam background was adapted to modern times with Afghanistan as the focal point. It also did a lot to address the issues returning soldiers must face like PTSD and social alienation. The actor who played the Punisher also did a great job. As an origin story of..you know who I also think it was particularly cool. They kind of rewrote the character but again more as a modern adaptation that worked really well in the context of the story. Hope it does well and that they are going to make another season.

 

[Cycloptomese]

Keep watching. The first episode doesn't have much to do with the overall season at all. I think they were just trying to set the tone.

 

[Souplex]

Spoiler: I liked it, but one story element did slightly bother me.

It turns out the death of Frank's family was actually planned by the military bad dudes he worked with because of what he knew.
To me that kind of diminishes the point of the character in the same way that Joker being the guy who killed Batman's parents does.
It has more impact if it's just a random tragedy.

 

[Trunkage]

Spoiler: I liked it, but one story element did slightly bother me.

It turns out the death of Frank's family was actually planned by the military bad dudes he worked with because of what he knew.
To me that kind of diminishes the point of the character in the same way that Joker being the guy who killed Batman's parents does.
It has more impact if it's just a random tragedy.

Particularly when his pathos is taking out all those who hurt his family.

Also, is this going to be a recurring theme? He's dragged back into the actions because he found someone else connected to his families death?

 

[spacemutant IV]

^ That's why I don't want Jigsaw to be back too soon, it would seem very limited

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

The Punisher is definitely worth watching. Some of the episodes (like the third one) are pretty slow, but if you dig in and ride them out there is a lot to enjoy. Berenthal's portrayal of the mentally damaged, force of nature that is Frank Castle is very true to his comic book counterpart. He's missing the "brick shithouse" build of the comic incarnation of Castle, but he's still in great shape and just as brutal. Marc Bernardin described the Punisher as a weather system, he turns up and destroys everything in his path; and in that regard the Netflix series delivers.

 

[JemothSkarii]

It was... okay. To be honest, thinking back on it I didn't really like it.

But then when I watched it I was there because friends wanted to watch it and watching stuff together is usually enjoyable, got some good laughs out of it in that regard. But overall I found the writing to be weak, so when the humour fell flat the serious moments tripped and stumbled into melodramatic. Wasn't a big fan of the action either outside of the sledgehammer in the first episode. The lights out gun scene afterwards was pretty uninteresting. Just seemed like run-of-the-mill gunplay stuff.
Pretty sure I started laughing at the military mission flashback.
We also only watched like five or eight episodes so maybe it gets good like ten episodes in.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

So anyway, there was supposed to be a point to this thread. Is there anything worth watching if I continue? Does it do anything besides, "Frank needs new people to murder"?

Shit yes. The plot of the first episode has nothing to do with the rest of the season. It's just setup. I mean, I liked it, but it is not going where you think it's going.

The season's antagonists aren't even mobsters; they're CIA black ops douchebags. Part of the point of that first episode is to show that Frank has basically killed all the mobsters in New York already.

 

[jademunky]

So anyway, there was supposed to be a point to this thread. Is there anything worth watching if I continue? Does it do anything besides, "Frank needs new people to murder"?

Shit yes. The plot of the first episode has nothing to do with the rest of the season. It's just setup. I mean, I liked it, but it is not going where you think it's going.

The season's antagonists aren't even mobsters; they're CIA black ops douchebags. Part of the point of that first episode is to show that Frank has basically killed all the mobsters in New York already.

Ok, ok. This evening, if nothing else comes up and I don't feel like picking up that textbook, I'll continue watching.

I always do that. Start playing a game or watching a show and suddenly stop because something relatively trivial dragged me out of my beloved "immersion" for a few seconds.

 

[WolfThomas]

I'm really enjoying it. I haven't finished it.

But also I find it weird that it's kind of like an origin story for Frank. Except we had all that in Daredevil. At the end of Daredevil he was pretty much the Punisher fully formed. Killed everyone related to his families death, cache of guns and spray painted body armor. Ready to just kill criminals, except no...

Also his family's death is so convoluted now (if you overlay the information from this season on Daredevil Season 2, it involves 3 gangs, a corrupt ambitious DA, an illegal arms dealer and now the CIA). That said from a narrative point of view the CIA fuckery does smooth over any weird plotholes in the corrupt DA stuff from Daredevil (if they were manipulating her and events).

 

[jademunky]

Another minor nitpick, during episode 2, a character mentions 9/11. That seems weird in a New York that had it's own small-scale Lokipocalypse.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Another minor nitpick, during episode 2, a character mentions 9/11. That seems weird in a New York that had it's own small-scale Lokipocalypse.

Canonically, the Lokipocalypse had a fraction of the casualties that 9/11 had. Like, 9/11 killed three thousand people; according to the MCU wiki [http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_New_York], the Lokipocalypse only killed 74.

Which is insane, because there were giant space whales disemboweling skyscrapers, but whatever.

 

[jademunky]

Another minor nitpick, during episode 2, a character mentions 9/11. That seems weird in a New York that had it's own small-scale Lokipocalypse.

Canonically, the Lokipocalypse had a fraction of the casualties that 9/11 had. Like, 9/11 killed three thousand people; according to the MCU wiki [http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_New_York], the Lokipocalypse only killed 74.

Which is insane, because there were giant space whales disemboweling skyscrapers, but whatever.

So an actual alien invasion led by a viking god killed fewer people than an ex-soldier turned vigilante? Goddamit Marvel. Seriously, The Hulk alone should've accidentally killed more than 74 civilians that day.

 

[rosac]

I enjoyed it. I saw

Spoiler

Russo's betrayal

coming but loved seeing him transform into a new version of a comic book villain, it was made to be more personal to Frank but not totally over the top like other marvel franchises *cough*LukeCage*coughcough* There was a good amount of action, a view into Frank and Micros messed up lives and the last line is damnnnn powerful.

I also like that the punisher actually has friends compared to some iterations where he is all alone, even people who want to help him.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

It was fine but it wasn't what I wanted out of a Punisher show.

For one I get really tired of villains that have deep personal connections with the main character. They already did that with Dare Devil season 2 where it turned out that the major villain for Frank was his commanding officer, so I was hoping for the second season the villain wouldn't be directly connected to Frank and his family's death. Instead not only are the villains connected to Frank and his family, it now turns out that the death of the family wasn't some random tragedy but a planned assassination which just doesn't jive well with the Punisher as a whole and removes a lot of his motivation to kill criminals.

The way this show sets up the Punisher he wants revenge for his family's death, but because his family was specifically targeted and killed his motivation is revenge against the specific people responsible. This is different from the normal Punisher motivation of blaming all criminals for his family's accidental and tragic death. Because his revenge is focused on a small group of people it means that we don't get Frank killing criminals for being criminals (he lets Turk the arms dealer go when any other incarnation of the Punisher would have killed him without a second thought).

The side plot with Lewis was entirely unnecessary and just increased the length of the show. Would have been better if the show was 10 episodes instead of 13 (which can be said about ALL of the marvel netflix shows).

Was kind of hoping for a confrontation between Frank and Wilson Fisk based on some of the events from Dare Devil season 2.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

The first episode is a little weak for sure. I'm not that far in (episode 4 or 5 I think) and it's been enjoyable enough. The show is a lot slower than I thought it would be and I'm having trouble mustering up interest in the side characters and parallel plots. So far I haven't been given very much Punisher.

 

[maninahat]

I've seen a couple of episodes so far and I like what I've seen. Its tried to move away from the generic "avenge my family" plot by setting it 6 months after he's already done the avenging (which hasn't really helped him).

I like him being more blue collar and pragmatic than most other superheroes. I like how his approach to fights is basically to use the best tool for the job, which results in a broad range of action scenes rather than repeated kung-fu punch ups. I also like how his new sidekick looks like Lindybeige.