New Mechwarrior Game Faces Legal Threat

[AceDiamond]

you know the easiest way to just get around this would be to put the unseen designs out as a free download add-on. Nobody is profiting from it and therefore nobody can sue.

I'm sure I'll be proven very wrong within 3 posts but given how MekTek has made free mech pack addons for Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries, including some of the unseen designs...

I dunno, Harmony Gold could still sue, they would probably fail but they could still sue.

True. And the threat of a lawsuit is usually bad enough. Speaking of, here's something from MekTek that just boggles my mind.

Posted by Supermike, Friday, 04 September 2009 15:10 Comments(0), Read all
The following views are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of MekTek.net.

For many years I was upset over, what I perceived as, Harmony Gold's "tyrannical" protection of their intellectual properties. How many people's favorite 'mech was the Marauder? After speaking with a couple of people "in the know" on this subject, I have come to change my views significantly.

The first thing to remember is the artwork in question was NOT created by FASA. It was the work of the people that created Robotech. Why shouldn't they want credit and the rewards generated through their work?

The silly anger that is still expressed to this day, many years removed from the initial actions taken by Harmony Gold to protect their I.P., is truly baseless. It is high time we let this issue rest and acknowledge the fact that those 'mechs aren't even 'mechs. They will be missed, but that should give some credit to the people that developed that artwork initially, as it has endured as a sore spot in the Battletech community for many years, proving that the artwork was loved and appreciated by, not only Battletech fans, but also by Robotech fans.

Many people may not realize that those 'mechs were not the I.P. of FASA, and while many do, they still express anger over the assumed excessive steps taken by Harmony Gold to protect their property. Is it really excessive if it is theirs?

It's time to let this issue rest. This is not giving up. This is accepting the facts and doing what is right.

The problem with this outright admission of defeat is that it's not Harmony Gold's from a moral standpoint. Or at least, to me I feel like it isn't theirs. While he has a point that maybe it is pointless to ask for the unseen designs to appear, it's also worth note to point out that Harmony Gold is slapping them with a cease and desist order right now, so...yeah.

 

[Zer_]

you know the easiest way to just get around this would be to put the unseen designs out as a free download add-on. Nobody is profiting from it and therefore nobody can sue.

I'm sure I'll be proven very wrong within 3 posts but given how MekTek has made free mech pack addons for Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries, including some of the unseen designs...

I dunno, Harmony Gold could still sue, they would probably fail but they could still sue.

True. And the threat of a lawsuit is usually bad enough. Speaking of, here's something from MekTek that just boggles my mind.

Posted by Supermike, Friday, 04 September 2009 15:10 Comments(0), Read all
The following views are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of MekTek.net.

For many years I was upset over, what I perceived as, Harmony Gold's "tyrannical" protection of their intellectual properties. How many people's favorite 'mech was the Marauder? After speaking with a couple of people "in the know" on this subject, I have come to change my views significantly.

The first thing to remember is the artwork in question was NOT created by FASA. It was the work of the people that created Robotech. Why shouldn't they want credit and the rewards generated through their work?

The silly anger that is still expressed to this day, many years removed from the initial actions taken by Harmony Gold to protect their I.P., is truly baseless. It is high time we let this issue rest and acknowledge the fact that those 'mechs aren't even 'mechs. They will be missed, but that should give some credit to the people that developed that artwork initially, as it has endured as a sore spot in the Battletech community for many years, proving that the artwork was loved and appreciated by, not only Battletech fans, but also by Robotech fans.

Many people may not realize that those 'mechs were not the I.P. of FASA, and while many do, they still express anger over the assumed excessive steps taken by Harmony Gold to protect their property. Is it really excessive if it is theirs?

It's time to let this issue rest. This is not giving up. This is accepting the facts and doing what is right.

The problem with this outright admission of defeat is that it's not Harmony Gold's from a moral standpoint. Or at least, to me I feel like it isn't theirs. While he has a point that maybe it is pointless to ask for the unseen designs to appear, it's also worth note to point out that Harmony Gold is slapping them with a cease and desist order right now, so...yeah.

Harmony Gold actually ripped many designs off themselves for their own Robotech show. It's just such retarded irony.

 

[AceDiamond]

I think what's more annoying is that, were it not for the fact that the redesigns of the Warhammer and the Marauder look like complete ass compared to the originals, I would not be complaining about this at all. All the other unseen redesigns look just fine, but for some reason they screwed up on those two. Well that and the fact 3rd parties can make these mechs just fine but we can't get them put into an actual retail release of anything because of Harmony Gold sitting on its Ivory transforming tower cobbled together in a cave with a box of scraps from various pieces

 

[paragon1]

Harmony Gold can fuck right off. I want to see a new MechWarrior, preferably one untainted by needless changes caused by threat of litigation, damn it all.

I know, right? What are they thinking? It's not as if they're going to lose any sales over this, it looks like a legal shakedown. I could understand if Harmony Gold were going to be releasing a new anime featuring those designs, but they aren't, are they?

Yep, the stupid ass Shadow Chronicles crap that they're using as an excuse to block any NA releases of any of the GOOD Macross stuff from Japan.

But as the good Cmdr. Breetai has noted, Harmony Gold basically has "Robotech" in its stable, that's it.

FUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKK!!!! I hope every last one of those bastards jumps off a cliff onto rusty spikes.

 

[Andy Chalk]

So it's likely this will not effect the release of the new game that much, but unless they can come to some kind of deal it's doubtful we will see those specific models.

But the trouble, as AceDiamond pointed out (as did I in the original post), is that you can't have a 3015 Mechwarrior without 3015 mechs. Not unless you're going to do a complete "reboot" of the series a la Star Trek; otherwise, you're just asking fans to squint and pretend that those very iconic mechs never existed, which I don't think is going to wash with a lot of fans.

I was excited about the announcement of a new Mechwarrior precisely because it marked a return to the "classic" Battletech. If it's not going to do that, why should I care about it any more than the previous release?

 

[Anton P. Nym]

I was excited about the announcement of a new Mechwarrior precisely because it marked a return to the "classic" Battletech. If it's not going to do that, why should I care about it any more than the previous release?

I suppose that they could remodel them somewhat... make the Marauder, for instance, resemble the Catapult more while keeping the same basic layout, or making a Warhammer with the design esthetic of a Hunchback. Perhaps that'd take those out of Harmony Gold's claimed realm. (Hmm... make the Archer look like a scaled-down Atlas with the shoulder mounts and a different head?)

Mainly, though, I'm looking forward to a Mechwarrior game that plays like the 'mechs did in Battletech. Though I'd love to see models that reflect my misspent youth, it's putting myself back into the Inner Sphere that I really need.

-- Steve

 

[Zefar]

Besides, what I really want from FASA now that they got the rights to Shadowrun back is a single player RPG set in that universe. That is what I want them working on. If they could do a RPG as deep and detailed as KOTOR I would be in gamer heaven!

oh I totally second that i remember an old game on one of the consoles that had a single player rpg style game.. the NES i think it was

I think you mean this game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_(SNES)

I played it a bit but not sure how far I got.


Anyway, Harmony Gold can go fuck themselves. I want to see a NEW game on the market. This game better not be shut down.

 

[GloatingSwine]

FUCK HARMONY GOLD!
You produce that Bullshit that was robotech, then you block the release of Macross 7 and all other Macross shows in english, forever forcing anyone who actually wants to watch the shows to watc subs. THEN you have the fucking gall to claim you 'Created' Robotech, like Macross, Genesis Climber Mospedia, and Southern Cross never existed.

FUCK YOU AND THE FUCKING HORSE YOU CAME IN ON YOU WORTHLESS SACKS OF SHIT!

NOBODY! FUCKS! WITH! MY! MECHA!

The ironic result of this is that even Big West can't release Macross toys in the US, and they didn't even know this until they tried to release some of the Plus merch and Harmony Gold woke up from their commercial torpor and kicked off again. That's why they sued Tatsunoko.

Harmony Gold are why we cannot have nice things, and they can eat all the dicks.

All the dicks.

 

[arckangel6983]

The biggest thing is that even the trailer had infringed on Harmony Gold. The mech fighting the Jenner shown at the start and the Atlas at the end was a Warhammer, one of the "unseens" I saw the video IGN had placed on their site, with the creators talking. I shall include a list of unseens and their counterparts from Macross and related.

From Crusher Joe
Locust

[edit] From Macross
* VF-1 Valkyrie
Stinger
Stinger LAM - LAM model of above, illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Wasp
Wasp LAM - LAM model of above illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk - VF-1S with FAST Packs
Phoenix Hawk LAM - LAM model of above illustrated in LAM or Hybrid mode (Referenced in Battletech: Crescent Hawks: Inception and Revenge series for the mech that belonged to Jason Youngblood, the protagonist of the series)
Crusader - Armored VF-1A

* Zentraedi "Regult" Tactical Battle Pod
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout

* MBR-07-Mk II Spartan Main Battle Robot
Archer

* MBR-04-Mk VI Tomahawk Main Battle Robot
Warhammer The piloted mech in the reboot trailer, and reason for the C and D orders

* MBR-04-Mk X Defender Anti-Aircraft Defense Robot
Rifleman

* SDR-04-Mk XII Phalanx Space Defense Robot
Longbow

* Zentraedi "Glaug" Officer's Battle Pod
Marauder
Marauder II

[edit] From Dougram
* Dougram
Shadow Hawk

* H8 Roundfacer
Griffin

* F35C Blizzard Gunner
Scorpion

* T10B Blockhead
Wolverine

* F4X Hasty
Thunderbolt

* F44A Crab Gunner
Goliath

* HT128 Bigfoot
Battlemaster Featured in Activision's Mechwarrior combat simulator (The BEST HEAVY MECH IN THE GAME)

Harmony Gold Is not willing to license out the battlemechas or they wouldn't have sued for infringement, they would have sued for royalties. My information came from Sarna.net BattletechWIKI Unseen:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

 

[AceDiamond]

I think the worst part of this is that apparently in Japan, Harmony Gold has no power like they do in the US, to the point where they don't have the rights to the images at all, and just the distribution rights for Robotech. Which to me means that, if someone were to bring this up, even if it's not from America, it sets a precedent that HG has no right to do this because they don't own the images from an international standpoint and the Unseen mechs are different enough in armament from their Robotech counterparts that it would be hard to claim they're the same in any way but appearance. I still hate how a topic on MekTek got closed by the admin because he basically said "Harmony Gold is within their rights, we'll just have to deal with it" and that kind of defeatist attitude really kind of pisses me off, especially because they put the Unseen in one of their free mechpacks for Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries. What if Harmony Gold fired off a Cease and Desist at them for that? Many other free projects have been shut down for less. I'm certain the admin would be singing a very different tune.

In conclusion, dicks on one side, cowards on the other. And here most of us are in the middle trying to make some level of sense out of 2 decades worth of confusion.

At least the game itself doesn't seem to be in any jeopardy, but it's going to be hard to believe this takes place in 3015 with some of the more identifiable and iconic designs being absent or horribly redone.

 

[arckangel6983]

Ace, you missed one key point. HG OWNS Macross in the NA region, and the japanese own it there. HG got the licensing to use its mechas through the Japanese parent company Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd. The reason why FASA lost is because they would NOT disclose any information on how they acquired their designs. Hell, FASA tried suing Harmony Gold first and lost because of the exosquad line release included some of the designs that FASA had presented to Playmates toys via Robert Allen, whom was only permitted to show off models. From that end, HG got a hold of some of the models, and determined that they were close to their own products and vice versa. HOWEVER, throughout all this, based on some court reports, Harmony Gold had been issuing C and D notices to FASA since 1984. I have some forms of the legal proceedings which I will add here:
http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/

 

[Singularly Datarific]

Why does Harmony Gold care?
Mechwarrior ripping them off gave those designs some decent use, for once!
I saw a Warhammer maybe 3 times in all of Robotech.
The only really used mech they had was the Veritechs, and even they were second to that stupid, awkward love triangle that took up 15 episodes!

I was excited about the announcement of a new Mechwarrior precisely because it marked a return to the "classic" Battletech. If it's not going to do that, why should I care about it any more than the previous release?

I suppose that they could remodel them somewhat... make the Marauder, for instance, resemble the Catapult more while keeping the same basic layout, or making a Warhammer with the design esthetic of a Hunchback. Perhaps that'd take those out of Harmony Gold's claimed realm. (Hmm... make the Archer look like a scaled-down Atlas with the shoulder mounts and a different head?)

Mainly, though, I'm looking forward to a Mechwarrior game that plays like the 'mechs did in Battletech. Though I'd love to see models that reflect my misspent youth, it's putting myself back into the Inner Sphere that I really need.

-- Steve

How dare you think of comparing a Warhammer to an ugly-ass hunchback!
However, Marauder/Catapult idea is cool.

 

[AceDiamond]

Ace, you missed one key point. HG OWNS Macross in the NA region, and the japanese own it there. HG got the licensing to use its mechas through the Japanese parent company Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd. The reason why FASA lost is because they would NOT disclose any information on how they acquired their designs. Hell, FASA tried suing Harmony Gold first and lost because of the exosquad line release included some of the designs that FASA had presented to Playmates toys via Robert Allen, whom was only permitted to show off models. From that end, HG got a hold of some of the models, and determined that they were close to their own products and vice versa. HOWEVER, throughout all this, based on some court reports, Harmony Gold had been issuing C and D notices to FASA since 1984. I have some forms of the legal proceedings which I will add here:
http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/

Well that's slightly deeper yes.

Still doesn't change my views on it since from all I've seen regarding the Japanese ruling that made the original creators of Macross owners of those images, well yeah. Also, to have been delivering C&D notices for almost a decade before something actually gets done either means the Justice system used to be really lazy in regards to copyright law or they weren't hitting the nail on the head.

Ultimately I still doubt HG is playing a fair game because as was initially believed, all of the Unseen were allowed to be used. It just so happened after that trailer came out that they learned that wasn't the case. Seems a little too coincidental for my liking.

 

[Tahmoh]

They should just redesign the mechs to be close enough to the originals without being copyright infringing, why they didnt do that to start is anyones guess really given the way HG sues anyone for the slightest hint of infringement these days.

I wouldnt put it past HG to try to sue the japanese creators one day just to prove how arrogant and deluded they are when it comes to the rights.

 

[arckangel6983]

Broken, there is almost no way to redesign the warhammer to not infringe on the macross design without it being what it is. Here's a galling thought. The owner of the Franchise now is the same owner that had the suit, FASA. FASA owner should have remembered the case and remembered what could and couldn't be shown. I wonder, why were the other unseen permitted but the warhammer not?

 

[Valiance]

You know what they did in Mechwarrior 2:

Leave the designs basically the same, call them "II-C" and it was good. (Rifleman II-C, Warhammer II-C, Marauder II-C...)

Basically the clans had modified the chassi a little bit and changed the equipment on 'em. The Marauder was smaller than the original one if I recall.

And then unfortunately, it's true, I didn't see them in 3 or 4, and only in instant action in MW:2 Mercs...

Had no idea this was why.

 

[Ledd_Bate]

This post is just for those curious about the early history that led up to this situation. Those not interested in boring facts may want to tune out now...

Also, much of this info was originally posted at another forum. I really wish I had the name as I would like to credit him or her. Sorry.

I've filled in a few facts I found on my own.

In the mid-eigthies FASA had in fact licensed the "Unseen" designs from Japanese sources in parallel to Harmony Gold, so HG's first challenge to them went nowhere because at that point, FASA's claims looked legally valid. No, FASA's problem back then was with Lucasfilm. Long-time Battletech fans will remember that it was first called "Battledroids." (I've still got the original boxed set.) George Lucas (well, one of his flunkys) called up FASA and said: "Nuh,uh. WE own the word "droid". El ceaso and desisto." So the name was hastily changed to BattleTECH. Which was just as well. I mean, seriously, who wants to be know as a "Droidwarrior"?

Anyway, a few years later FASA's middleman company on the deal, Twentieth Century Imports a.k.a. TCI (importers of nearly two dozen 1/144th scale models of the mechas from "Crusher Joe", "Macross" and "Dougram") went out of business and that broke the paper trail. This was just before the time FASA began to bring the Clans into the game. The issue was basically dropped by both sides (with FASA dropping the Unseen from its products in a quiet fashion and HG moving on to other projects) until the Battletech TV series came along and there was a parallel revival of Robotech because of a product tie-in to the Exo-Squad TV series. (Also, anyone remembr the "1st Somerset Strikers"?) So, Playmates (on HG's side) sued Tyco (on FASA's) and won, and FASA crumbled soon after that.

In theory, Studio Nue and Sotsu Agency (the original designers of the Unseen) hold all the copy and patent rights on the Unseen. But their rights in the United States are partly held by HG due to a resolution in Japan between the two creative entities behind Macross (Big West and Tatsunoko).

Should anyone think I'm making this up, just take a gander at any of the original TCI models and you will see right on the assembly sheets "Licensed by Tatsunoko Productions of Japan, exclusively manufactured for TCI."

By now, some of you may have your eyes crossed. See, this is how I.P. and trademark rights can get so... interesting.

EDIT: About the "Warhammer" from the new Mechwarrior video. Yeah, it is "different" but very, very close to the original design. I highly doubt it would pass the rule of thumb (in legal circles) that it must be different by at least 34% to be considered "orignal."

What bothers me about this is that Jordan Weisman MUST know all of the above facts. He was one of the primary people (along with Sam Lewis) behind Battletech. Certainly he must have realized the released video would trigger a response from Harmony Gold. Was he doing it deliberatly to test them? Maybe to get their attention, THEN begin making offers? I'm really curious.