New Vegas: Why Join the Legion?

[Assassin Xaero]

There were obviously the "evil" one, but none of the factions were that "good" it seemed like. Followers of the Apocalypse were the only ones that I agreed with a little. Plus, doesn't matter much... beat the game twice, took two different paths, and the ending battle was exactly the same.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

Okay so you bring up a post from a year ago in an argument from now? Hell, even the fucking wiki states it was advertised as as having a fusion reactor, and a basic replicator.

Random person writing the wiki vs Chris Avellone...

Hell, even the Fallout bible has become outdated and non canon.

lol what? If you mean by the fact that Bethesda is rewriting everything because they have no idea what is going on. Then im going to have to go ahead and say that Fallout 3 isn't a fallout game. It's Bethesda's Post Apocalyptic RPG with stylistic similarities to the Fallout Series.

The original team couldn't even agree on how fucking ghouls are made

Oh good because we are talking about ghouls here so that is totally relevant.

Replicators are limited to templates in their memory. Of course a water chip wouldn't be inside the memory of a food replicator. However, this does not exclude the possibility of a person being able to create new templates.

But bro, I heard that fallout computers can hold hundreds of terabytes of information. I guess they were just like w/e lets blow our giant experiment by not allowing for the reproduction of a crucial part.

It's like how NASA shoots off drones to mars but they don't really bother to outfit them with solar panels for longevity or ensure that the wheels even work. Because you know, whatever they can send another one next decade.

And secondly vaults were implied to have replicators in Fallout 2, which is why the squatter was asking for the code to, if I remember correctly, to make long island tea in Vault 15. How would an abandoned and looted vault have anything useful left? The only difference between 1 and 2 is the power to the vault, which is the only requirement for a replicator.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_15

Hell, it even said "the Khans to move into the vault itself on the condition that they repair the vault's systems in order to help provide the squatters with food, water, and other amenities." How could a vault's SYSTEMS able to provide FOOD instead of it being in STORAGE? It heavily implies replicators.

Rofl you don't even read the whole articles you proffer as evidence. This is too funny. Did you even play Fallout 2?

The squatters were going off of pipe dreams and they were lied to by a bunch of Khans. There were no replicators making food. The Khans were going out into the wasteland, killing a bunch of people, stealing their food and then bringing it back and telling the squatters that they repaired the vaults 'systems' and were magically getting them food.

So to answer your hilariously pointed but miss-aimed question. They don't provide food instead of storing it. Vaults have hydro-agricultural farms in them to provide food for their inhabitants. And Vault 15 had a bunch of raiders stealing food from merchants and surrounding villages and used a bunch of gullible fools as cover for their schemes.

As for thorium:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium

"Thorium is several times more abundant in Earth's crust than all isotopes of uranium combined and thorium-232 is several hundred times more abundant than uranium-235." Since this is a post war world with low population and therefore low needs. Its not exactly that pressing.

Again, how does "we found a more abundant energy source" equal we found unlimited energy? And how does this at all support your dumb statement that the old world was on the brink of unlimited prosperity for all? The old world didn't have a low population. And how does this save the new world in anything but the archaeological short term? Recreate a society with a new better energy source and they are going to run reserves down and start killing each other for it.

It's like if Fallout was originally about a nuclear war over dwindling coal sources. And you were like 'man if only they had really taken advantage of oil, everything would have just been peachy and they would have lived in prosperity forever.' Higher efficiency is not the same thing as 'everything is free now!'

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1. Chris Avellone himself said the Bible Shouldn't be used to determine canonicity. In 2011.

Yeah because it's no longer his series and it isn't a good idea for him to say "fuck Bethesda they are ignoring Fallout lore." Considering Obsidian relies heavily on contract work from Bethesda and Bioware.

2. Chis Avellone wasn't the one who wrote most of the Fallout world. The one that did supported radiation and FEV but Chris "convinced" him to make it radiation only.

Again who gives a shit? This has nothing to do with this conversation.

3. Yes, they CAN. However not everything is created equal. Does a mac have the same power of Blue, the super computer? Fuck no.

If you're talking about deep blue, then yes. Macs are more powerful now than Deep Blue was in the 90s... that's kind of how technology works.

4. Yes, I did. I know the khans raid people who came by, but they PROMISED to fix the vault systems for food.

Anyone who has even two braincells can tell you "ill get you food out of this floppy disk" is impossible, unless of course the replicators WERE there, and COULD work.

Because lying is impossible? It's a world where tribals believed a vault suit was magic and you had to go on a spiritual quest to retrieve it. There's plenty of idiots with mystical notions about the abilities of technology.

If there WERE farms, where the fuck were they in Vault 13 and Vault 15? Oh that's right, there were no farms. No farms anywhere but fucking Vault 22.

If there were 500+ people in each vault, where the fuck were they? Oh that's right computers have limitations and drawing absolutely everything is time consuming and not even close to being the point of the series.

If hair hasn't stopped growing due to radiation damage, how come my characters hair never gets any longer on its own? If people can still procreate in fallout, how come there are no animated baby models? If the Earth hasn't hardened into a solid sphere, how come I'm not allowed to dig a hole anywhere I want? If the rest of America exists in Fallout how come they only created the Mojave for the game? This clearly proves that the rest of the Fallout universe does not exist!

5. You are talking about a world where a generator could run for 200+ years with no one doing refills.

Citation needed.

If you're talking about the Sierra Madre, then most of its systems were offline. It's like running a bunch of computers in sleep mode. They aren't going to make a big power drain.

Are you seriously telling me there is suddenly a fuel and energy efficiency problem?

Yes, because that's what the Fallout series is about. An energy crisis destroying the old world as people squabbled over its resources.

Even the Sierra Madre didn't have a power issue, and that was built by scammers who cut corners.

The Sierra Madre had money thrown at it by one of the richest people in the world who was building it to the benefit of very few people. That's like saying no one in the White House has ever starved to death, so it is completely inconceivable to me that Africans are.

Then you have stuff like Helios One, dams, wind power, geothermal. The Mojave alone is a perfect place for a highly efficient solar plant. "renewables" are still in fallout's world.

Yes and they can't even supply a post war society with a miniscule fraction of the people the old world had. Man that's some great efficient energy...

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

Well the faction may appeal to historical nuts, the kind of people who want to start from the beginning.

The NCR, with all their tech and ideals, don't actually know what that entails and how logistics are important. Its like a toddler trying to build a giant death bot. While impressive, there is a lot that can go wrong.

The Van Buren documents paint the NCR in the Mojave as a shadow, a faction that grew too fast without fortifying anything. Since their hold on land was weak, they lost contact with the rest of the NCR.

The NCR in New vegas follow in spirit, but not extactly.

They follow old world ideas, but lack the world that actually made it possible. The NCR has no standardization, which is a negative for modern warfare. Lack of standardization has no bearing on melee warfare, which the legion uses, and is actually a good thing.

Without the factories, and without infrastructure those ideals fail. The NCR needs the standardization of the old world armies to compete.

They need standard training. Standard armor. Standard weapons. The NCR lacks the ability to do any of that on an actual scale. Standardization makes warfare with guns much easier, but the good stuff is held for absolute last.

Ever wonder why the first recon, the best sniper unit in the NCR, use hunting rifles that are falling apart? Which is a WWII-esque technology, when the real old world used semi auto snipers and powerful .50 cals? Because the NCR's equipment is actually limited. First recon even says its because hunting rifles are common to the farmland they pluck the soldiers from. They didn't even bother to give them anything better.

The first recon should have .50 caliber snipers if the NCR knew what the hell it as doing and followed old world mentalities.

They even use T-45d power armor as their "shock troopers." This armor was horrible, even by old world standards. It chewed through energy cells like, as one soldier put it, "chans in a rice buffet." Run out of energy, and you were trapped in your own armor. The real game changer was the T-51b, which is nowhere to be found in the NCR even though it was common in California, and they got a metric fuck ton of suits from the war with the brotherhood. California has the most military bases of any state in the Union as well, enough to field a large army. The NCR has little excuse outside of laziness to not outfit their troops beyond what they bring when they fucking enlist.

The old world nations built up their nations. Their military, culture, and infrastructure. The NCR did none of it when expanding. They would grab a toddler with a spork and spend him out to fight if they could. Armies need investment.

The NCR has little defensible infrastructure.

The NCR has general custard to World War I to 1700s era level military style. They are all over the place and it shows. The NCR lose men every day and have very few to replace them, they don't have the luxury of a meat grinder from the 1700s that kills a lot of their troops. The 1700s was a time of non standardized guns, and huge casualties but this was a time when human population was booming by untold numbers. Everything was going right for humanity at the time, but not in Fallout's world were water isn't even guaranteed. The NCR are getting way ahead of themselves. They don't have the standardization, training, entrenchment, or coordination to pull off WWI-WWII military strategies either. They sure as hell don't have any of the requirements for modern warfare tactics. Their entire military and its leadership is one big joke.

The NCR has no actual end game, or actual strategy beyond a primitive form of imperialism. Sure they get the hoover, but what next? They have water and power yet they don't even bother to entrench their position for over 4 years? What the hell is NCR thinking to NOT entrench the hell out of the dam with everything they got? The dam provides water and power for the majority of the entire west coast. That is a HUGE benefit that should be protected at all costs.

The NCR wants it all without the work the old world required. If they actually did actually open their purse and invest, the legion wouldn't stand a chance when they are sniped by master snipers with actual equipment, face shock troopers with actual power armor, bombed with the NCR's vertibird airforce, and bombarded with artillery. A little work, and NCR's problems would all go away, but instead they send the good stuff to protect a bunch of cows in California.

On the other hand, the legion and house are focused strong men governments and those always fail when the leader inevitably dies. Their progress is lost because an incredibly centralized government runs that risk when all the power lands on a single man with a cult of personality.

So its either young upstarts who have no actual idea of what made the old world ideas work in the first place, or two strong men governments that won't last a single human generation. That's what it all boils down to. The only up side is that the legion is a bit more realistic in its expectations in regards to its world. It knows its a crude government for a crude world, and doesn't try to bullshit you into thinking its America 2.0.

I disagree, the NCR is not the best it can be, but some of the things you wrote are wrong.

1. The NCR did entrench, that's why there are snipers, and rangers are the river that snipe boats, and various anger depots.

2.the m24 bolt action preferred by snipers who don't like semti because of better accuracy given by bolt actions fires similar rounds to the hunting rifle.

3. 50cals are used, along with brush guns by the veteran rangers who are the true snipers

4. They have do somewhat of a standard troopers are armed with m16 like rifles, and trooper armor. Rangers are armed with .357 repeaters, and ranger armor. The recons are armed with hunting rifles, and their armor.

5. Van burden was not released, and it was non canon.

6. Power armor needs training etc.

7. The gunrunners are an infrastructure, which supply guns to the NCR, and does not need to be defended.

8. The fact that the legion even uses melee weapons is enough of a drawback, that even if they don't have standard melee weapons, they are going to get killed easily.

9. The NCR did not lose contact with the west they still have long 81 , which in my version is still there.

10. The NCR back west have a high population you also make it soild like they are fighting a equal faction, but you are wrong the NCR are stronger in almost every way to the legion, their manpower can be drawn from both gouls, and humans along with the fact that they have many settlements under their control along with most of California.

The best faction in fallout would have to be the Midwestern branch of the brotherhood of steel, and if they combined with the east, they would be unstoppable. They have lots of manpower ie humans gouls, deathclaws, robots, super mutants. Their culture is growing as a accepting all people culture, and they have lots of technology at hand, keep in mind this is the best ending for them.

1. If the NCR entrenched, there would be bunkers. Tossing around a couple sandbags and makeshift walls is not an entrenchment. Even sloan says entrenchment is new and stifled because of the deathclaws at quarry junction.

2. The DKS-501 model sniper rifle is the legendary standard for sniping for Fallout's universe. It is unparalleled, even with the older models. There is no "bolt action is better" especially when they use the same caliber. Since the hunting rifle is made post war and misaligned, there is little reason to use the hunting rifle when the DKS-501 is available.

3. Rangers, not troopers. The rangers are not the main branch of the military. In fact, they are their own faction that is alongside the NCR army.

4. No, their rifles are semi autos and cheaply made trash. Their armor is not much better. Even Chief Hanlon talks about how the NCR doesn't standardize every soldier. They get what they can get.

5. New Vegas was based on Van Buren designed documents. NCR being in a bind is canon. I said this in the damn post, at least read through the fucking thing.

6. The NCR have trained engineers repairing a fucking dam and building structures. The NCR has training, and its been shown they KNOW the secret to power armor.

7. The gun runners don't factor into shit when the NCR pays the lowest bidder for its supplies. Since its been established the routes are completely fucked, no they cannot defend themselves.

8. The NCR use low caliber weapons as standard, and route the moment they see a legionary. The Legion is winning for a reason, because the NCR doesn't want to shell out for a real military.

9. I was explaining the stuff they based the NCR on. Are you even fucking reading this or mouthing off on shit you don't even understand? Its clear as fucking day, Ill even bold it for you. See the fucking difference? IN VAN BUREN AND IN NEW VEGAS? It explains the developer's train of fucking thought.

10. No they don't, they are drafting people to stop the drop of experienced troops. The divide wiped out a whole shit ton of support for the Mojave alone. The NCR's Mojave army is a bunch of conscripts with little training, and rushed into service. Their officers are a bunch of dumb asses. Their equipment is crap and not standard. The actual units are stuck in California and Baja chasing small time bandits because the brass was being spiteful to each other and took it out on the troops.

The NCR is by no means the strongest. They are a shell of the country they were in Fallout 2, and a lot of the Tandi era laws were over turned.

1. It is in fallout world, and good enough to stop Zerg rushing recruits which a plenty in the game.

2. But the sniper rifle has less health, and les damage for more dps while the hunting rifle has more Dmg while less dps. Hunting rifle also fire 1495 shots before breaking vs 395 shots, and are more common. Some NCR troops do have the sniper rifle, but the hunting rifle was made for desert combat with its higher reliability, and it also has a lower price.

3. Rangers are a NCR diversion and special forces also they carry very good weapons, and all can shoot very well.

4. They are still better than the legion recruit weapons some of which are.357 pistols, and machetes, and the armor is also better than legion recruit armor.

5. Based so what it's still another game with another plot. It also says the burned man aka hanged man was a psychic murderer what's your point. I aso never say the NCR weren't blind stop putting crap in my words, but I say they were less blind, and more standard than the legion which is good seeing how the legion does nothing but Zerg charges, and killing off towns.

6. The engineered are where they should be, and power armor is limited, and most of it is still in brotherhood hands, and the t51bs are back west.

7. But the 2nd recon do buy its weapons for them, and the gun runners are an NCR supply line. The NCR also supply lines also don't require troopes to guard.it even says in the wiki the NCR source of engery weapons, and ammo come from vault city, and the gun runners who can defend themselves.

8. .556 NATO is not small, and they don't route give me proof where did it said on the wiki they route.

9. The train of through seems to destroyed by fact that the ncr are still supplyed by the long81, so saying the NCR lost contract is a childish way of putting it.

10. The NCR are still in control of vault city, redding, shady sands, boneyard, Baja, bullhead city, and most of the core region.

No the NCR is not the strongest I never say it was did you even read what I say about the fucking Midwest branch of the brotherhood of steel, but it is stronger than the legion, and is the largest known military force in post nuclear America. Also the NCR also can draw its strength from the fact that people think its better vs the legion, and won't die in when its leader dies. Also the NCR was able to 1700 charge the brotherhood of steel, and win purly based on numbers.

5.

1. What world it is makes no difference. Your argument is incredibly reaching. The NCR wants bunkers right before the legion hits, yet 4 years have passed of pure opportunity.

2. Game mechanics don't really matter to lore. Hunting rifles are post war, made poorly because of their misaligned sights. The DKS-501 is the legendary standard for accuracy, standard for the military. Standard for armories, which California has a lot of. The armories have enough weapons to field an army much bigger than the NCR's.

The sniper only has less health because of its critical damage bonus. A boon for real snipers. Raw damage and DPS only matters in straight up fights, which the bolt action is a liability in. The accuracy of the DKS-501 is the legendary standard for sniping in the old world. Health of the gun doesn't really matter because that's a game mechanic to stop the player from spamming weapons like in Fallout 1. Its been known NPCs clean and take care of their guns, the courier doesn't.

3. Rangers are "the best" yet they are a separate division founded by survivalists. They are not part of the actual army. The actual army needs range and capability in modern war, without that its a horrible outdated army.

4. Yet the legion still wins and stays in the fight most of the time. What does that say about the NCR's military? Keep in mind the .357 is not a caliber to be joked about.

5. Blind? I said IN A BIND. Which means THEY ARE HAVING TROUBLE. The legion doesn't NEED standardization, the military tactics it uses doesn't RELY on it like the NCR.

6. What? The engineered are where they should be? What the fuck do you even mean? The brotherhood LOST the war, and most of their armor was TAKEN by the NCR. Not only that, but Power armor is COMMON, especially in military armories. California is said to have the MOST military bases and armories of any state. 32 of them, full with equipment that would easily field the NCR.

T-51bs should be at the front lines, not back protecting brahmin from small time russlers while the unreliable 45s are at the front.

7. First recon's leader says they use hunting rifles because its what they used back home before they enlisted. You can go back and check yourself. Since NCR's supply lines are fucked, the gun runners can easily be attacked the route cut off. You don't need much to cut off a supply line, especially when the NCR can't protect its own roads.

8. Route, as in, RUNNING AWAY AND DESERTION. There are PLENTY of fucking NCR deserters around. Hell, one even sells weapons at the fucking 188, a group mugs you in the Vikki and Vance, and forlorn hope has plenty saying they will desert. The service rifle they use is done for cheap, not for stopping power or anything else. Just like automaticc assault rifles, they use smaller calibers because any bigger would fuck with the mechanism and make it unreliable. So instead of a range of rifles for a range of uses like the old world, they use one rifle for the majority of their force because it was the cheapest way to outfit an army. Since the 5.56 isn't the "go to" caliber for breaking body armor, I doubt it would do anything against power armor plating, which the legion uses from time to time. They break power armor into bits and integrate it into the armor of the higher officers who find it, which is way more than the NCR gets in terms of armor.

The NCR use a thin metal plate or leather for their chest armor, the .357 the legion uses isn't outclassed. Bullets are not the main issue here, its the armor they are facing. Some recruits wouldn't be an issue for a 5.56, but the bigger legionaries certainly would be. Compared to the NCR, a .357 would be equally lethal to all NCR troopers.\

Hell even by your own in game logic, NCR armor is outclassed. a .357 revolver does 28 damage at full repair compared to the NCR armor's 10 DT. A service rifle does 18 damage at full repair, and the upper legionary armor has a DT of 18. Considering service rifles are not always at full repair, that would put legion armor neck and neck with the NCR weapons. Legion weapons on the other hand destroy NCR armor, even the machete they use does 11 attack.

9. The train of thought is that the NCR is in trouble and a shell of its former self. The rest is semantics.

10. Fallout: tactics is not entirely canon. Other than we know it exists, nothing is known about them. The entire military is disliked back in California because all it does is kill people, they have no will to fight anymore. Largest army does not mean best or effective, an army that runs away most of the time is not an army.

The legion may be "under equipped" but they have the NCR in a bind because they have actual plans and espionage networks. The NCR just sits there with their heads up their ass and hoping they can beat the legion.

1. You don't need to entrench, and snipers are enough. You laughable if you think the legion can survive nails of sniper bullets, and building bunkers on the dam would have been useless since the legion went through pipes in the dam.

2. Misaligned sight?!?! The snipers use scopes, the legion are the ones dumb enough to use no scope rifles, along with a few rangers who do better in aiming, did you even read the wiki?

3. The rifle has enough range, and capability, when used in a 4-5 man squads, and troopers also have grenades, while some have even mid level weapons like marksmen carbine, and sniper rifles, vs the legion recruits which are the backbone, and have the worst armor, and weapons in the entire game, and do not outnumber the NCR.

4. But a 5.56 is? And no most of the time please. The NCR beat at the dam the first time, and they are sniping legion boats. The legion also is stupidly sucide charging the NCR, then committing sucide destroying what little manpower they have. It says the NCR military is 1700 while the legion belong in the year 1200.

5. But the tactics they use relay on numbers, and fear, but when they are getting sniped left, and right, and outnumbered it matters very little.

6. No their is still a brotherhood who I sure like to destroy their equipment, plus looters etc.

7. But the dam separates the legion, and NCR, and gun runners supplies will blow up if anyone attacked them, so it not worth it, also since they are the primary supplier once wiki.

8. The NCR had more troops, and the legion sucides, and the 15th man Gets killed thing makes it so the NCR is still at a better stance. Also I say RECRUIT armor not veteran legion armor which is still a dt off from their counterpart ad it says on the wiki. The recruit armor vs trooper armor 6 dt vs 10 dt why are you comparing vets to troopers their are the trooper, and legion recruits both are the main backbone of each army. So NCR trooper>legion recruit look it up on the wiki better weapons, and armor

9. And the legion will die once two people die, and if they faced the Midwest BO'S

10. The NCR were not in fallout tatics, they were in fallout 1, and 2

So a outnumbered charging machete welding 6 armor legion vs 20 round 5.56 rifle, 10 armor trooper.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

if the Legion was a "Total security at the cost of freedom," faction, with all of the things like misogyny, slavery, and fears of technology taken out.

What? When have you ever seen such a faction anywhere?

I am too rather upset about most companions leaving my second legion character
Not that i like them much, but anyway

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1. Wow so not even Chris Avellone is right now? Nice to know if it doesn't chase after the newer fallouts, its suddenly evil.

Are you brain damaged? If it doesn't follow the lore Fallout 3 set up, then Bethesda stops contracting Obsidian/Avellone to make their games so they stop making money. Is 'not making money' evil? Wtf are you talking about.

2. There were macs in the 90s. Not every piece of technology is created the same.

So your argument is that the 400-600 billion dollar-a-piece vaults skimped on their computers? Really? And that with your imaginary wide spread replicator technology they wouldn't put in the ability to remake a crucial component to avoid fucking up their experiments?

3. Scavengers KNOW about vaults, in fact a lot of people do. Its knowledge and resourcefulness that keeps a person alive. They know whats in them, and what system does what. It doesn't take long to spread that information when scavenging is a common activity.

Most everyone you bump into knows next to nothing about vaults. Stop pulling information out of your ass.

Okay so you are referencing invisible farms that only YOU can see when there are two computers in the mess hall that people gravitate towards that could easily be replicators and makes much more sense in a Vault. it would make more sense to use that explanation too. Why wouldn't they use replicators? They already have the generator to power it, they can free up a lot of space. Hell, even in your own Fallout Bible it references "food extruders that only extrude a thin, watery gruel."

The farms are listed in multiple sources, fallout bible as well as in games. If you're going to ignore whatever parts of the game you want, then I guess you might as well just make up whatever you want and talk about how America could have avoided the nuclear war by using their space fleet to shoot down missiles.

Automatic food preparation is pretty easy and not very power consuming. They could easily use an automated system that only produces crap food. Or they could not build a hydro farm and simply put a bunch of shit gruel into storage as their only access.

5. Money does not equal hyper efficient energy generators. No matter the power draw, it will run out of fuel sooner or later.

Does money allow people to hire programmers to set up series of automatically starting generators to switch loads? Oh right it does.

Not to mention some bases like Sierra Army Depot has machines and force fields still running with no one tending to it.

No one tending to it but the self-aware AI and tons of robotic helpers... If you played Fallout 2 then you would know that it expresses being bored with the day to day operations of the Sierra Army Depot and asks for you to get it a body so it can escape. And you think that means no one was tending to it?

Big Mountain is another, I don't see them tending to anything. In fact, they were stuck in the Dome while Mobius was too senile to do anything.

Big Mountain was built as an absolutely gigantic research facility and most of those facilities were destroyed and thus wouldn't be drawing power any more. It's like creating automated infrastructure to power the entire US and then only needing to provide power for a single state. You're going to be able to run a series of generators for a lot longer with lower power needs. And Mobius is far from senile, the dude has been creating and refining an army of advanced robots for hundreds of years.

Helios one is only part of the grid, the Hoover was meant to power some of the grid. The Hoover only has a couple turbines running, and all the power either goes to the strip, mccarran, or California. That's not how the pre war did things. It was meant to supply part of its power to the entire west coast, instead its only going to California with Helios One holding the bag. That's not normal operation.

Fully operating hoover dam services 2 million people. And its on a gigantic river. So firstly it couldn't save the old world. And secondly once a-fucking-gain it does not help you long term. It does not produce nearly as much energy as the energy required for replication as the fission. All you have done is tie yourself to another fuel supply that will run out again.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1. Okay so Chris saying the Bible was a bad idea, and it is, then he is suddenly a fucking paid puppet?

How does not being retarded make someone a paid puppet? There's very few people in this world who have the privilege of getting to run their own IP indefinitely without being economically forced to make compromises. Not everyone can be Harlan Ellison.

If the lore was that shady for you, why do you even fucking care anymore? Consider it Star Wars 2.0 and move on for Christ fucking sake.

The East Coast is a divergent plot. The West Coast is just fine and will continue to be just fine as long as a bunch of people who made the original, continue to work on it.

If the creator can't be trusted because he is a "corporate puppet" then who the fuck can even bring it back? In fact, Chris didn't even need to say anything about the Bible. people ASKED him about it, and he answered his CHANGED opinion. He GREW from the person he was in the 90s, is that such a fucking crime now? The fallout bible was a bad idea from the start, and its not canon. Chris Agrees. Deal with it.

People put him on the spot and he responded with the only possible answer that wasn't a giant middle finger to Bethesda. And you need to grow up, just because he isn't raging against the machine at every turn doesn't make him a corporate puppet. It makes him a realist who understands he doesn't automatically own something just because he helped create it.

2. Vault tec did skimp on computers and construction, and Vault 13 was meant to have crappy chips with lots of replacements. The chips didn't arrive.

Wow bzomg why would they ship a bunch of chips to a vault that can magically create things for free? Oh... right...

3. Yes, they did. Scavengers pick through everything, even vaults. The fact "no one" knows vaults is ridiculous when they are picked through regularly. Hell, even broken vaults are regularly used as homes for squatters and wastelanders. There is a fucking vault casino on the damn strip alone.

Lets see out of all vaults that have historical records of what happened to them we get this:

Vault 15: Completely abandoned fell into disrepair, no signs of any intelligent life, just molerats. Vault dwellers formed bandit groups and Shady Sands rather than staying at their apparently magical vault. In Fallout 2 there are squatter outside of the vault and raiders inside who aren't picking through anything and are basically just chilling out there as a base.
Vault 13: Unopened no squatters or wastelanders entered; later inhabited by deathclaws.
Vault 12: Completely wrecked with FEV and radiation; scavengers and merchants do their best to stay the hell away from the area.
Vault City(8): No scavengers there, the populace moved out of the vault and built a city. They have farms and herd Brahmin as well as trading for more food. Boy you'd think with magical food production techniques they wouldn't bother with farms.
Vault 17: Conquered by a super mutant army, no human scavengers here either.
Vault 19: Captured by Powder Gangers who raid for their food.
Vault 21: All critical systems filled in with concrete, no scavengers, vault dwellers dispersed for the most part.
Vault 22: Abandoned and overrun with plants. Only 0-2 scavengers ever get out with their lives.
Vault 3: Filled with fiends who are too hopped up to figure out anything about vault, scavenge anything of value or learn anything scientific enough to spread any rumors about magical food dispensers.
Vault 34: Completely overrun with feral ghouls and radiation, no scavengers here.
Vault 39: Overrun with hostile mutated plants, no scavengers here.
Vault 0: Populated by a powerful robot army, a bunch of lobotomized people and run by a series of brains in jars. No scavengers here.
Peoria Vault: Populated by radscorpions and roaches, surrounded by a village of tribals who view the place as unholy and refuse to go near it. No scavengers here.
Vault 11: Flooded and filled with various mutant creatures. No signs of any scavengers here.
Vault 92: Inhabitants went insane, some fled. Vault is flooded and there are mirelurks everywhere and no evidence of scavengers.
Vault 87: Filled with super mutants who kill on sight. No scavengers.
Vault 101: 'unknown' exactly but either collapsed because the vault dwellers weren't fucking enough, or was abandoned.

So let me get this straight we have,

no 13
maybe 1
Yes 3

And you consider that regularly? Yeahhh regularly is totally like 25% of the time. I bet you 'regularly' win arguments.

And the maybe was a vault where the only thing recovered beyond random equipment was only maybe possibly depending on quest choices just a data disk with plant growing techniques on it.

And of the three yeses. We have fiends who both don't give a shit to learn about or understand the vaults systems, and if they did they would be way too high on drug cocktails to figure anything out anyways. Powder Gangers who admittedly raid for all their supplies, get nothing from the vault, and are only there because there's sulfur for explosives. And vault dwellers who returned to their vault decades later and got a bunch of scavengers to sit outside the vault by lying about food.

4. If farms were there, why would a food extruder produce gruel? Why not just eat the vegetables you fucking grow? Whats the fucking point of the extruder?

If the post was there, why not read it before replying with a question that was already answered?

If it had no farms, and most likely doesn't otherwise the gruel is meaningless, where does the extruder get its fucking food to make it? Replicators would be the only possible answer because its the only machine to pull food like that out of its ass. Even the Fallout Bible backs this up, even with suit extruders.

If only there was like... rooms where people could store things? Like containers with food in them or rooms with boxes of things? Is that something that exists? Hmm, this is quite the conundrum.

I went to a costco the other day. I had been on the road for awhile and was hungry so I bought a pizza for myself and a hotdog for a friend. My friend sat with the car while I got the food and he wanted ketchup, so I had to walk over to this place at the side of the wall. It was this extruding little tube and out of it came ketchup when I pushed on a part of it. I guess that means costco has developed the ability to magically create ketchup out of nowhere. I know I can't think of another solution. Maybe you can come up with one?

Oh hey look at this.
http://www.extru-techinc.com/products/extruders/barrels

I guess its true. The future is now and the US can magically create food out of nowhere. I mean there it is right there. Extruders and cooking and food. There's no other way that those words could mean anything else.

5. And fuel still fucking runs out. If I have a generator and it has 2 canisters of oil, once the canisters are empty you can't "switch them out for more" because there are no new canisters.

Lets say go figure a base is stocked with tons of materials to be broken down into energy and it has 10 generators including both large and small ones. Now lets say that there is an engineering system that auto loads fuel. Now lets say that there are automated turrets in each base(which there pretty much are) as well as other highly energy intensive systems like moving a fucking 20 ton steel door back and forth. Now lets say that just theoretically, running a computer in sleep mode takes a lot less than running those other systems.

So we have a bunch of fuel and a bunch of unnecessary systems. An intelligent code system would power down the big generators and load only the fuel bit by bit into the bases smallest generators in order to simply keep a few key systems in essentially perpetual sleep mode. So we have an insane amount of fuel, being funneled slowly into a tiny generator. How long do you think you could keep a single oil lamp going if you sat in a warehouse of oil. A ton of fuel, one tiny lamp. It's all about the ratio, and computers don't draw nearly as much as you seem to think they do.

Unless those robots can mine the fuel and bring it back, the AI can't do shit but wait for it to run out of power.

Who says they can't?

6. It doesn't matter, fuel fucking runs out. Just because its destroyed doesn't mean it doesn't draw power. Cords with no end still draw power.

Sure, unless you know. Someone added detection software and engineering systems to find broken wires and shut off power to those systems. Not that it would really be much of a power drain considering they again, spent 500-600 billion stocking these vaults, I'm sure they have a whole hell of a lot of fuel down there.

The Hoover is a huge power source, and it seems Helios is too for only two power plants to be in the area of a major city. This means that renewables were on a much higher level than you think.

Yeah that or Obsidian was working on a flat rate contract and they didn't think drawing every fucking power plant in Nevada was at all important to the story. Also omg bro the Old World Vegas was only like 10 blocks total and you can cross the entire Mojave in like an hour walking. I refuse to believe that they are scaling things to realistic expectations given a 3d engine.

Power isn't rare, it has many ways to make it. Some even renewable and common.

Wrong. Renewable energy firstly is not renewable. Stop violating laws of thermodynamics. And secondly is neither common nor efficient. You want to take every fallout game combined and You still only have two renewable energy sources, both in New Vegas. Both operating at close to modern energy outputs of similar facilities. Neither capable of sustaining nearly enough energy to run even the lights and computers of the NCR let alone enough to reorganize matter.

Since power is not rare in fallout by any sense of the word, it has little value.

Not even remotely true. If it wasn't rare they would have a guy begging you to distribute it evenly at the cost of rolling blackouts.

Low cost energy, used to replicate objects, means everything is almost worthless. No value, no economy, no drive. Oil was nice because you could extort practically every other country into accepting your rule.

Yes but we have already pointed out that this isn't true at all. Renewable energy is inefficient, low yield and doesn't exist in large enough quantities either pre-war or post-war to create a magical utopia. And fissile materials are limited so all you have done is switched one war for another.

And how the hell is it low energy cost? You have to give dozens of these coins to many anything and you just said how high energy output fusion is.

If china got its oil, it held the upper hand because it controlled a rare substance. It had political power over the lesser nations. Would America really allow that? No, it wouldn't. The Enclave didn't want power to slip away. In a post scarcity society, no value means no power stranglehold.

And the Enclave never hired anyone with any understanding of tactics? Right...

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1. Chris changed his mind over time.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize you had a telepathic connection to him. Do you golf on weekends?

They didn't even know it fucking existed.

It's always great when a studio hasn't even bothered to look up the source material or pay attention to it. Huzzah for I am Legend, Fallout, and i Robot. Can't wait for The Forever war to come out.

They didn't care if the people in there lived or died anyway, so why WOULD they give them any more than the basic essentials for an experiment?

Because they were never before able to in the history of man perform such experiments under such conditions. So if they were going to run them in the first place and spend all that money why the fuck would they half ass it? That's like Nasa deciding they can only ever send 100 mars rover off so they go pssshhhhh, don't bother to test anything, and 50% of the rovers break. The point of an experiment is to get information. If their information was to see what would happen if they locked people in a vault for 200 years, then why would they not even give a modicum of a shit whether or not the experiment succeeds?

Vault city had an energy crisis because they couldn't make the capacity higher.

How could they have an energy crisis? Energy is lyke free bro and so food is freee tew. I mean like fusion is everywhere man its so easy.

Vault 11 could have easily been scavenged.

Yes and there could be no fusion materials left in the world because magical goblins ate them. Saying something 'could have happened' is pointless in an argument. It didn't happen.

Vault 19 chose that vault

Vault 19 chose a vault? what?

The fact the animals are around means that caravans wouldn't bee that common

Did you play the game? Talk to them again. They raided caravans for supplies.

Why would you resort to old and bulky processed food makers when, you said it yourself, that replicators were a revolution in manufacturing? In fact, why even invest in a processor instead of a kitchen or replicator? Either one would be much cheaper and fit the role of the vaults more.

Because they were hugely expensive to tack onto an already hugely expensive project. That's why they were only used by Sinclair. Because he was a rich guy who was super interested in novel technology. That's also why Elijah was so keen on taking over the Casino. Play the game, listen to him talk. He is super excited about the replicator technology. If it was commonplace in every vault it would be technology the brotherhood had and he wouldn't have been wasting his time there. Honestly I don't know why I'm even arguing with someone who has so obviously not played any of these games.

Which means the gruel has to be made from a replicator.

No it doesn't.

Even stored food won't work with population fluctuations

Yes it does. If I take the entire food output of the United States and I store it indefinitely, and there is one person eating it. He will survive for 50 years. If we increase the population fluctuation by 1000x that single person. They will still survive. Stop making simple math errors.

You still haven't answered on why the Survivalist's store bought generator still works even if he has been dead for decades.

Because a gameplay designer wanted it to and didn't bother to think about the implication. Or someone else came along later and reactivated traps as a deterent. Like for example the dude who wants to keep the tribals away from weapons.

Hell, why do some robots still run on fission batteries 200 years later?

All the robots I can think of are maintained. House's robots have hands and could put new batteries in their comrades. Or they could be rechargable. Skynet maintained his facility in the same way. Pretty much all the other robots have caretakers or ways to caretake themselves. And for Fallout 3, Bethesda doesn't care about fallout-people.

How many people could even afford to build their buildings like that? Or even care since the bombs mean they would most likely be dead? Not many. Yet it seems every single object was built to last, which is expensive.

I don't what the first part is talking about since you have this weird obsession with randomly numbering things rather than responding direction. As for everything being built to last, I also have no idea what you're talking about but for a different reason. According to experts on the subject as filmed by the discovery channel most skyscrapers could last around 200 years before they finally crumbled into dust. Smaller buildings could last quite a bit longer. The events of Fallout New Vegas(the furthest along in the time line,) take place only a little over 200 years later. And the technology most of our buildings that would last that amount of time were built with was mostly in the 1930s-60s; where as fallout goes up to 2077 when the bombs fall.

There are only two power plants in the fucking game.

No there aren't. Gecko is a giant part of Fallout 2 that you apparently ignored. And Fallout 3 has power plants all over the place.

it still implies the two plants are powerful enough to power the entire city of New vegas.

The city of New Vegas was mostly destroyed, just like all the other power facilities. Could you please go back and actually play the fallout games? What it implies is that the developers weren't interested in getting every fucking perfect little detail because no one except you is actually thrown by it.

Unless you imply Chris rushed New Vegas because he doesn't give two shits about his creation and wants money.

He wasn't getting money based on sales and he was getting a lump sum. If he didn't care he would have taken the contract sold all his stock produced a terrible game and then immediately jumped ship. It's called no matter how much he cares there are only so many programmers doing so much on a game and if you're going to make a place to visit you'd better have content for it. And having content for hoover dam(visually stunning) and a solar laser system. Or you can have the adventures of the Courier through a coal power plant?

Two renewable plants powered the entirety of New Vegas. Just two.

No they don't. Helios wasn't even a power facility it was a weapons platform.

Las Vegas has 10 power plants in real life. Two renewables do the power of 5 of our modern plants. How is that inefficient and at the level of our power output?

And Las Vegas is also not the size of four square blocks in real life. And there are more than 100 houses in the entirety of the Mojave. So I guess prewar Vegas only had a population of like 1000 people. Because that is totally the only logical conclusion I can come up with because I have no understanding of the development process and the limitations of computers. Lyke don't computer programmers just say "COMPUTER RENDER REAL WORLD!" and then it lyke does everything for them?

one FISSION battery equals 50 chips using an archaic technique. 5 chips equals a box of food. So one FISSION battery means a person can have 10 boxes of food. Since it is scaled down by your own words, a person can eat for days. Since fusion is much more powerful than a tiny version of a nuke plant, that is a huge amount of food.

Hey watch me play the "I Have no understanding of anything that isn't directly animated into the game" card.

There is less than 150 fission batteries in New Vegas. I mean holy shit you can get a whole 13 of them in The Big MT, that's like so many and stuff. Lets be generous and go with 200 batteries. 200 times 50 is 10,000 chips. Divided by 5 is 2000 boxes of food and then you have exhausted the resources of the old world. Huzzah you can feed 2000 people for a day or two before your resources run out.

Yeah I can totallllllly see how you would mistake that for utopic prosperity.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1. If you say I can't defend him, why can you attack him?

Wtf are you even talking about? Who is attacking him? Are people supposed to sacrifice their entire livelihoods for some weird moral standard you have with regards to intellectual property and licensing rights?

2. The fallout bible wasn't even finished, why even bother following an incomplete and rushed set of lore that effected NOTHING in the entire series?

If it has no effect then why are you trying to argue that it isn't part of the lore? Because part of its affect is to pile even more onto the mountain of evidence that is wrecking your argument.

2. Vault 13 was supposed to have crappy vault chips with a finite supply of other crappy chips that crowds the vault with crates, to test out how rationed stored items last over time. Making a replicator make the chips completely destroys any severity the experiment has.

"The purpose of Vault 13 in the vault experiments was at first to stay closed for 200 years, as a study of prolonged isolation." It has nothing to do with rationing. You are wrong. It's to figure out what happens when a population stays apart from people for 200 years. Stop making things up there is literally nothing ever said in the games about rationing experiments for vault 13.

3. Vault city was xenophobic and relied on what their vault could output in both power and water. Its nuclear reactor was inefficient by design. They were hesitant to really talk to anyone else, and have been shown to resort to force for their interests. Vault city is incredibly limited, and not typical of a normal settlement.

That, and this was way back when civilization was just getting its bearings. Do you expect them to build brand new capacitors and generators when they amount to tiny villages?

"Xenophobia is a very human but irrational or unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. " They let a freaking tribal with very foreign customs join their city just because he happened to be smart and physically fit. They aren't xenophobic. They dealt often with traders for food and water. They joined the NCR.

Vault City was elitist. They tried to keep everything separate from the rest of the wasteland. They were very picky on who they let in. They were even more picky on who they let join their society. They didn't freak out and refuse to let the chosen one join because he was foreign, they were just cautious about letting him do so. Also they traded for water. It is known. So you are wrong.

That's one of the reasons why they were freaking out about Gecko, which you would know had you played Fallout 2. It was polluting the water they were getting for their crops and livestock. If they were getting water magically from the vault, they wouldn't give a shit what Gecko did. And if all they needed was electricity to get free food and water they also wouldn't give a shit what gecko did as long as they could get some of that huge amount of electricity. Neither of those are the case however because you are wrong.

4. The raiders in vault 19 chose that location so they could make explosives harass the NCR specifically. They weren't squatting to live there or be productive. They were just there for what was in the caves and that's it. They had no long term plan, and even in long term you would be hard pressed to find parts for a vault.

Cool so another vault that was never scavenged. Thanks for helping me further refute your statement? You're really bad at arguing.

How can you tell Vault 11 had no scavengers? It was a fucking mess by the time you see it and guarded by low level monsters. Hell, you even see an NCR trooper in there, dead. You can't tell what happened by war or by scavenging.

You said vaults scavenged all the time and people were very intimate with their workings. I just pointed out that almost none of the vaults are even accessible for one reason or another and thus there are pretty much no scavengers. You literally just undermined your argument two seconds ago. And you're only contesting a single vault which still wouldnt even bring it up above 15% of all vaults ever having been scavenged even when we assuming a single person and a bit of data being the only surviving part of a vault to be "having been scavenged."

Your argument is kaput and arguing vault 11 is a waste of time. There's no evidence in the game of people having scavenged it except a single dead body. If you're so into only allowing 100% accepted evidence from the games then you never see anyone who has scavenged it, you never talk to anyone, you never hear anyone talk about it, you never see any scavenged loot beyond what you take. Ipso ergo facto it was never scavenged. Unless it was by the invisible people in the invisible houses running invisible power generators. And if that's your argument, then you've just collapsed your central argument. Not that your central argument isn't crumbling away bit by bit every time you make another post anyways.

5. Does price really matter to the US government and by extension, the Enclave? They knew the world was ending, and US money would be worthless. A debt they don't have to payback is no debt at all. Besides, mining out a warehouse would take much more time than slapping a Replicator in the mess hall and calling it a day. Money was of no importance, time was.

Ignoring your completely failure to understand how government debt works; manufacturing was limited mostly because replicators weren't a thing that was being used by anyone except Sinclair. They were more concerned with making weapons to ensure their dominance in the post war world than they were in fostering an emerging technology that was only barely put into place by one crazy rich dude at the time the bombs fell.

When Elijah saw the vending machines, he even saw the idea of a post scarcity society. Which reinforced what I said that the old world didn't have to die if the great war was postponed until replicators really caught people's imagination.

1. Yeah he totally saw that in the vending machines. Because despite his experience elsewhere with various vaults, military installations and brotherhood installations he had no idea that kind of technology was actually accessible and real. It was a revelation to him and that's why he talks about it at some length. Because its new to him.

2. The old world didn't have energy for it. So again fissile material wars destroy the world. War never changes.

And Big MT? No sense of control or help there. The robots roam around in the dust with no support for 200 years.

The Big MT had robots being shut down all the time. That's why the suite wasn't even powered on at all. You find tons of junked robots. Also there were humans repairing them, with an entire cult built around the personality of the toaster by the lobotomites. The lobotomites had their brains replaced with tesla coils but were very capable of performing maintenance and assistance as was their original purpose.

Helios wasn't JUST a weapon's platform, it was a power plant as well.

You said that it was powering Old World Vegas. It was not. It was a weapons platform.

The Hoover Dam is said to have secret labs in it, does that make it area 51 and not a power plant?

You're going to have to cite this one. And while hoover dam does create a heck of a lot of power it's not on the same level as fusion. And hoover dam is relatively unique in the world there aren't that many big rivers in the United States let alone the world. And the water power of hoover dam only powers 2 million peoples homes, which doesn't include making their water or their food or driving their cars. It is not an energy solution unless you have figured out some way to change how physics works.

If so, New Vegas has nothing powering it anymore which makes it a marvel of technology.

And I didn't see any car dealerships so I guess there weren't any of those either. And there's no government office so the Vegas area must have been run on anarchy. And I don't see any meat packaging plants so everyone pre-war must have been a vegetarian. And you can't find a single cradle so they must have all been sterile. And you can't go into any sewers beneath New Vegas proper so I guess they had evolved beyond sewers. And there are no hospitals so I guess all diseases were cured, and there was no such thing as organ failure.

10. Okay, how many people have the money to build highly advanced power plants with AI and huge back up supplies?

Seems to be tons of people like that. Apart from the US government that built most of these facilities there are a superfluous number of super capitalist geniuses with gigantic wallets and visionary plans. Robert House, Sinclaire are both from the same tiny area.

How many people would even care if their building survived when it means they die?

Every single architect, engineer, building designer. Also probably most construction workers take some pride in it as well.

In a world where everyone that isn't the government is broke as fuck?

Who was broke? There was an entire gigantic super expensive privately funded casino built like right before the bombs fell. Massive inflation != broke. There were plenty of super rich tycoons. I mean Robco built its own freaking missile defence system that almost made New Vegas untouched by the war.

Even the Enclave wouldn't care for small time armories.

Most of their armories seem pretty small to me considering they didn't really bother to save that many people for their post war government. It's not like they needed armories to support 100,000. In fact its easily argued that they only armories they cared about were the small ones.

The bombs would destroy any electronics not underground.

Yeah totally. Hey who's Michael Faraday anyways?

Even Honest hearts mentions everything stopped working before the bombs actually hit the area.

Honest hearts is a state park rofl. It's a time of war and the government is going to funnel heavy resources to some park rangers to update their software and shit?

Yet in spite of the nuclear force hitting everything and the EMP that preceded it, everything still works 200 fucking years years later. Even the roving robots outside.

Yeah I've never heard of Michael Faraday either.

I am talking about New Vegas here. I know about gecko, but places like NCR and Vault city had power plants. New Vegas only has two plants.

So you think that its more likely that Gecko was the absolute only power plant on the west coast? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe. No one bothered to add locations for hundreds of other power plants because why the hell would they do that? The purpose of videogames is to make things less boring even in worlds where they should mostly be mundane. Alpha Protocol didn't show you all the cafes and slaughterhouses and hospitals even though they were there. They showed you the places they created interesting content for the most interesting places. Hoover dam is a fucking gorgeous set piece for a post apocalyptic world. A laser facility is interesting. A coal power plant is... who gives a shit?

It doesn't mean that stuff doesn't exist. Just like how New Vegas is a fucking tiny city, how there are no hospitals around, how there are only enough buildings for there to be like a 1000 person population in the entire state. It just means that making tons of those all over the place adds absolutely nothing to the game and programmers/content designers don't work for free.

Which means Chris can claim its the future and leave it like that, which he did.

It doesn't mean its the future any more than the fact that there were no schools in mass effect 1 meant that schools didn't exist any more or that there were no children alive in the game or that Earth didn't exist anymore because you couldn't go land there and see the buildings. There is only so much processing power and so many writers, voice actors, graphics artists.

YOU are the one being thrown off, because you keep making Fallout seem like our world applies to it.

You are making stuff up because you have created an imaginary idea of their world that isn't supported anywhere so you have to come up with imaginary information.

"oh no! energy tech fucking sucks their plants cant power shit!" Oh yeah? Well Helios One and Hoover Dam proves you fucking wrong. Fallout power plants do the job of 5 of our plants. Its not our world, Fallout's world was way above ours in technology.

Yes and there are no pre-war hospitals so no one gets sick. And you only find like 20 cars in New Vegas so I guess people flew everywhere with their jetpacks that I have extrapolated must exist because there are not enough cars.

In the real world, power plants wouldn't be that powerful. Their energy technology blows ours away, deal with it. You can say "but but our world-" all you want but Fallout is in the future and it makes sense to have better energy technology.

Their power plants aren't that powerful. They can't even power the tiny NCR.

Everything is scaled down, 2,000 boxes of food is still a lot. Even the fucking Mcbrides in novac say 10 steaks is enough for more than a year.

So food is scaled down but you can't imagine that they could have possibly in a million years have scaled down the number of power plants? You're being ridiculous. You can't have things both ways. Either it's scaled down and the population of old world America was only like 50,000 people or it's not scaled down and there more than 2 power plants.

Hell, even Vault 13 is powered by geothermal.

Vault 13 was less than 1000 people. The US currently has over 300 million. Renewable energy sucks. It is few and far between and even in the fallout universe it can't power jack shit.

Even then, fission batteries convert to 25 energy cells in terms of power. Energy cells and microfusion isn't rare. The Van graffs have enough energy to feed the people many times over.

Almost no one uses energy weapons and even still people aren't fighting all the time and thus aren't eating up that much ammo. The Van Graffs are a tiny niche business. They can't feed the NCR let alone everyone in the Mojave. The power plants can't even keep lights on for everyone let alone feed them at the same time. They have about 20% of the dam powered up and post the courier they have the entirety of Helios powered up and they are still having rolling brown outs for an absolutely tiny country when they are just powering computers and lights and a little manufacturing. Even if they managed to power up hoover dam completely they could still only barely increase their population before they started having problems again, and that isn't even with using replicators(WHICH THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HAUL THEM OUT OF THE CASINO.) And once they do get more people what the fuck are they going to do? There's no other rivers around to dam. The Geothermal could only help less than 1000 people. Helios barely helps the power grid at all even when fixed. There's almost no fission batteries which provide almost no food. There's almost no fissile material to run power plants and the ones that are around are inadequate.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

Again with this:

1. You said "you don't know him! He obviously is being twisted by corporate!"

And how the fuck do you know he is a corporate puppet? How do you KNOW he didn't change his own fucking mind?

You don't understand how quotes work do you? That's probably why you're having so much trouble with this conversation. You're the one calling him a corporate puppet.

2. Wrecking my argument? Your entire argument is how fallout is ruined by Bethesda taking out the fallout bible.

My argument has very little to do with the fallout bible. Reading comprehension please?

you keep ragging on Chris.

Again you're the one who keeps calling him a corporate puppet.

To keep bringing up the damn thread, a thread NO ONE ELSE IS POSTING IN ANYMORE?

Hi kettle, this is pot.

Why do you rag on Fallout 3 when Chris's awful Bible was just as bad?

No it isn't. Fallout 3 is far more lore breaking on even more basic levels.

The guys in vault city proved you wrong. Crates and crates of replacement chips. Enough to flood the living quarters of the vault. The chips were MEANT to break at Vault 13.

Play the Fallout games; the Vault 13 chips were delivered to the wrong vault by accident. Which tells us that both chips could be reproduced by replication becuase the technology didn't exist in vaults or anywhere outside of Sinclair's casino. And it also tells us that the chips weren't mean to break and if they did they were meant to have backups.

4. The Vault City guide laments over "inter racial" people living together. They only joined when the NCR forced them to join through a secret initiative. They were stone walled otherwise. Just like Vault 15.

They let a tribal join them. They traded all the time with merchants. They weren't xenophobic they were elitist. And obviously they wanted to be independent from the NCR, that doesn't make them xenophobic. And "inter racial" is different from "outsiders."

Hell, when you optimize the damn plant, they kill everyone. Do they stop the plant? No, they take the energy.

Yeah because part of optimizing it is fixing it so that it doesn't poison the water and thus ruin their food supply. No replicators there. They do like computers and lights though.

5. The raiders managed to get the power up and were picking through it, that alone means they knew more about vaults then they let on.

No it doesn't. It means they can operate basic generators and power switches.

Vaults were not unknown, people fucking knew about them.

People knew they existed, but they knew next to nothing about them. That's why less than 15% of them were ever entered by outsiders. They weren't a big thing for people to scavenge. Scavengers kept to cities and other places with good loot and less risk.

Dean Domino says the things were known

No he didn't.

We are talking about a Brotherhood of steel stuck in a bunker after the NCR decimated them.

We are talking about an old guy who was around a long before New Vegas with plenty of time to look into all kinds of technologies, and such technologies could be used to produce weapons so it's right up their alley except it doesn't really exist outside of the casino.

So Hoover dam is not a power plant, its now Area 51 by your logic.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

new vegas has a clinic

New Vegas does, yes. And it's set up inside of a random building by Followers hauling in equipment. There are no hospitals in Old Vegas.

you can enter the sewers.

In the suburbs around New Vegas, not in New Vegas proper. New Vegas proper has plumbing too yes?

Yes, rich people. Do you know what House's Robco does? It does defense contracts. Even Poseidon energy, General Atomics, Wattz, etc. Only Sinclaire was the one who didn't explicitly say where his money comes from. So out off all the rich people and companies, we can trace 99% of it all back to government money.

All but one paid for by government.

So your point is that I'm correct? I don't care where the money comes, they were easily rich enough to do so.

8. Its implied they make their own weapons, and even the armories would be too outdated to use. They have no reason to really have every government building last for centuries.

Because no one has ever thought of caching? Your point is that the government failed because it was super greedy over resources it didn't need. Now you're saying they are totally willing to let go of those resources when they could have easily protected them? You can't have it both ways.

9. I am not talking about the state park, I am talking about the Survivalist's account of the great war. Everything stopped working, including every car and every electronic in the area before the nukes actually dropped. Its how he knew the bombs were coming. Which means the nukes did do EMPs, and they DID knock everything out of commission.

Yes you're not talking about every state park you're also talking about joe blow with his clock radio out in the boondocks. And people sitting in the suburbs. Yeah the government would totally spend time nuke proofing random cars. This totally has relevance because the government would care exactly the same amount about a single random citizens car as it would about a military facility. I can totally see why you would equate the two.

No, because Fallout was much bigger until recently. It only used the absolute essential areas. However, the plants in the original fallout were nuclear and fusion for the most part.

So your argument is that the land mass of fallout is shrinking and its totally not programmers scaling things down to suit 3d and not creating tons of unnecessary spaces and buildings. Well then I guess your entire argument is moot, because there is a clear trend of shrinkage. So eventually the Earth will become too small to support life and everyone will go flying off into space or suffocate from lack of atmosphere.

New Vegas only has renewables, which you claim are shit despite powering the energy intensive Las Vegas area.

No they didn't they can't even power up the NCR. Nukes destroyed a lot of New Vegas.

You keep going on about how renewables suck, yet the pre war somehow made it work.

Obviously they didn't since it cant even power the full NCR. And everything else was blown up.

It also somehow made pacemaker atomic batteries power its robots for over 200 years.

Robots are autonomous, have arms, and can plug in new energy sources.

It even has replicators that can make 10 boxes of food out of 25 measly energy cells

Fuel being used. Bring on the resource wars.

10 boxes being enough to eat for a year for a whole family.

That's not nearly enough.

Something that any generator can easily match.

With fuel that was being fought over. War never changes. Bring on the thorium wars.

Fallout is set in the future, and it could have worked if the ones actually controlling it weren't fucking insane or incompetent.

Wrong. Resources are finite. They can't even power a post war society. They definitely couldn't power a pre war society on their own let alone create food on top of it.

Even scaled down, the fact that new Vegas has an all renewable energy source is a feat of engineering. No amount off "scaling down" will fix that.

Most of New Vegas was nuked. There are tons of missing buildings. There are barely any cars. But you don't go off on how everyone must have teleported or flown around with jet packs because that's a ridiculous leap to make just because Obsidian Entertainment isn't made out of money and can't hire tens of thousands of game designers. But I've caught you making a dumb leap of logic here, and so you can't back down no matter how ridiculous your argument becomes because to do so would hurt your ballooned ego.

The NCR's power supply isn't really stated. How do we know they got every single plant in California up and running? They can't even figure out how to get Helios up and running and the Hoover is hobbled by their lack of repair, only a few turbines in the Hoover actually work when the NCR ran it. How do we know how many people rely on the grid instead of using batteries or torches for light? As far as we know, they could have just rushed for the Hoover because it gives them the upper hand politically.

And they have a tiny fraction of the pre-war population. Yet they still have huge energy problems. Because most of the power plants were destroyed like most buildings. But you seem to believe that no nukes were actually fired and there was no damage whatsoever.

It would be like an anthropologist finding only one aqueduct left in Rome and immediately jumping to the conclusion that that single waterway must have been so powerful that it got all the water for the entire city. And when it's pointed out that it isn't big enough he immediately jumps to the conclusion that they must have had powerful engines pushing the water on at mach speeds. Because the thought that there might have been other aqueducts that were destroyed never entered his mind.

Hell, even the lack of efficiency could easily be the destroyed grid. Cords that have no end still draw power, and 99% of the cords don't lead anywhere. You just have to hope that enough power gets to where you want it, because reconstruction of the grid while a war goes on is asking for trouble.

Oh so cords can get destroyed but power plants can't. Man this circular logic would be great to show kids for what not to do in debate classes.

13. Vault systems are by no means low power. Sure it can hold 1-3,000 people, but the power off the above ground sensors, the life support, the security, the big databases of knowledge, the power to keep the pipboys on, the food and suit extruders, the auto docs and medical ward, and of course the AI and other functions.

Vaults don't hold 3000 people let alone 2000. Maximum occupancy was 1000.

The fact a single geothermal power supply can do all of this is no small feat, especially considering how much you think they suck.

You think that using an entire geothermal power supply for 1000 people is a feat? It's not. 2077 Fallout US had a 400 million population. You think there are 400,000 accessible sizable geothermal vents in the united states? There aren't. Power is not infinite. Bring on the resource wars.

Oh really? No one uses energy weapons?

The fiends use hundreds of them.
The Brotherhood relies exclusively on them.
Even Caesar's legion wants energy weapons from the Van graffs.
The Bright cult used them as their only weapons, and their corpses are everywhere.
Even Eddie in the Powder gangers use energy weapons, along with some normal powder gangers too.

The fiends barely use them, and the ones that they use are garbage extremely low power ones.
The brotherhood is like 100 people sitting in a bunker.
Caesar's legion never bought energy weapons nor used them.
The bright cult has shitty lower power energy weapons.
Eddie is one person and I don't think I've ever seen any of the other powder gangers use weapons.

And again, how does switching to a finite power supply help at all? Population balloons you run out. Nuclear war. Same old deal.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1. You said he was being extorted by bethesda. I said he wasn't and you scream "you don't know him!"

No I didn't? What are you talking about? Are you arguing against an imaginary person or do you just have literally no idea what the word "extort" actually means?

You don't know him either, so your conspiracy is just as flawed.

What conspiracy? All I said was that he doesn't own the IP anymore and it would make no sense economically or creatively for him to wage a one man attack campaign on Bethesda gaming software.

Which in your eyes means there is a conspiracy and extortion? what?

You may like to waste your time with dead threads, but I don't.

Then why are you responding?

you keep going on about the Bible

Pretty sure I didn't even mention the bible in the last two posts I've made except to respond to your continuously talking about it. It's pretty easy to poke holes in your arguments.

The bible got got the NCR's flag wrong

Oh shit you've totally destroyed all my arguments about Matt Norton's(?) lore contributions to the fallout world? And I care about Matt Norton why?

The fact Chris, who didn't even write the fucking world

He was a game designer for fallout; what's your point?

got all of this wrong puts it just as bad as Fallout 3.

No he didn't and in fact you haven't made a single argument about the fallout bible relevant to the subject.

4. I played the fucking fallout games.

It doesn't show.

Vault 13 had a shitty chip, and was meant to have even more shitty chips. Its not a leap of logic it was meant to be rationed over time as well. Otherwise, why did they get so many chips that it would crowd the entire vault?

It was meant to have backup chips yes, because it couldn't create new ones. The only leap of logic is yours.

Why not get the chips Vault 8 got? Which worked with no issue.

Vault 8 was to remain closed for 10 years. Vault 13 was to remain closed for 200 years. Are you capable of simple math?

5. So did the BOS in Fallout 1, but it was very evident they wanted you to die or fail and have no intention of letting you in. yet they had too.

I have no idea what this is referring to because you don't quote anything.

6. The NCR can't figure out a fucking thing about power plants. Which were said to be damaged but working, I even said it in the last post. Obviously you didn't read it.

They have it up to about 20% efficiency. But it still cant serve the lights and computers of the NCR and the NCR is tiny. It may have a ton of land but it does not have a ton of people. Hoover dam is not that powerful. And last time I checked there is only one Colorado river so how exactly are you going to get more 'free' energy when the population rises. You can't.

Helios is dormant even though the issue was basic as fuck, they even hired an idiot to try and fix it. By door to door begging no less.

Yes and when fixed and upgraded to optimum efficiency with a damaged hoover dam aiding it; there are still rolling brownouts throught the tiny NCR.

Even the courier found a way to repair solar cells, somehow the NCR doesn't.

So your argument is that the videogame protagonist is a videogame protagonist?

7. The plants are damaged, but House saved most of New Vegas. A lot of it is still relatively intact. Low density buildings, made of wood and gypsum board, will NOT even stand up to the smallest of nukes. If Vegas was actually hit, it would all be a pile of rubble instead of a road of Casinos.

And yet there is no hospital. Hmm.... it's almost like they only put in necessary and interesting buildings and didn't bother to populate an entire giant state. But that couldn't be true now could it?

Yet surprise surprise, real life Vegas has a lot of solar power.

This has nothing to do with anything. Are we talking about the real world? Because if so you've just destroyed your argument.

Even with a damaged plant, it shouldn't take that much power to power a single stretch of road or send it back to California.

But it does. Because you clearly have no understanding of power needs.

Yet since the power lines mostly lead nowhere

Citation needed. Either we can extrapolate or we can't. You have to choose one and stick to it.

You keep saying how thermal sucks, yet some vaults rely exclusively on it.

Again, vaults have 1000 people. I'm assuming you understand how many more people there are in the United States than 1000?

The Mcbrides say 10 steaks is enough for a family for over a year. 25 energy cells make a fission battery's output which means 50 chips and 10 boxes at 5 chips each.

Yes? ie a family consumes 10 steaks yearly? And three bags of potatochips are enough for my family yearly. It doesn't mean that's all we eat. It just means there's only a market for that much of a single item. On hardcore mode in new vegas you could consume 100 steaks in 200 in game days of playing easily to keep up with the hunger counter.

25 energy cells, and you get a year's worth of food for you and your family. Just like you said, its scaled down.

No you get how much steak the average family eats in a year. Don't worry though with rationing like that you're going to reduce the surplus population by starvation. And then you can have your Logan's Run utopia. Of the people you managed to not get killed.

Barely any cars? They are at Mojave outpost.

Yes theres like 20 cars there. I guess they were real big fans of carpooling huh. Unless of course things exist in the world that aren't rendered because who wants to render 20,000 cars. I wonder who want's to render 20 different power plants?

Would you really stay in Las Vegas during a disaster? You'd be cut off in the middle of the Mojave and die in a week. At least in California, which isn't that far away, you'd have some sort of chance.

Why would I die in a week? Unless there isn't replicator technology and super free for everyone energy that makes food for me.

that means nothing but government related buildings should still be working.

Not really. There's tons of super rich tycoons; and you know how much they love their buildings.

the EMP would fry everything.

Michael Faraday.

Radios, cars, robots, computers,

Michael.

everything.

Faraday.

and you think a nuclear power plant is as simple as pressing as button?

Yes. This is a world of extreme automation. Robots perform complicated tasks. self-aware AIs exist. A tribal fixed a power plant not by being a genius but by reading an instruction manual and issuing commands to it in the right order(as listed.)

Let me guess, do you think doctors have a button saying "fix it" and all they have to do is press it too?

What do the two have to do with each other? Nuclear power is pure science. Medicine is science and art. The reason we have people in the power plants is the same reason we have people in the cockpits of planes that fly themselves. We don't trust machinery no matter how reliable it is.

Running nuclear plants require a certain level of skill and knowledge.

Designing them does. And if shit hits the fan then sure knowledge and skill do as well. But as big of radiophobes as we are, that almost never happens and power plants can go chugging along just fine automated. Especially in a universe with self-aware AI.

Even then, 1,000 people is nothing. It will take a long time to get back to the state of the pre war. Before the industrialization and the abundance of food, the biggest cities ever got was just below 1 million.

Cool so you agree that a utopia is impossible and once population rises you run out of food again, run out of fuel and everyone starts killing each other again. Good. Why didn't you just concede before?

Since the NCR can't run anything right at all and having high casualties, and the Legion practically killing themselves like nothing, we have a long way to go before the over population problem comes back. Since a long time gives a lot of leeway to repair and fix the old world, its not as dire as you claim.

Again, we have a long way to go before we run into resource problems and start killing each other. Is NOT the same as it will never happen. It will happen. Energy will run out. People will die again. Your argument was that that wouldn't happen. It's not a case of things being dire it's a case of an eventuality that you said wouldn't happen. Which obviously will.

Hell, even some dead mining towns in real life still work in Fallout. Redding collapsed in 1920s, yet its still running 200+ years and somehow is a "golden duck." If resources were really that gone, both Broken Hills and Redding wouldn't exist in the first place.

What does the argument that Fallout is a different universe have to do with anything? Unless you can prove that active mines right now are still active in Fallout then you have solved nothing nor presented any relevant evidence.

Oh really? No one still uses energy weapons?

Fiends are commonly found with... ...and missile launchers

You do realize that missiles aren't energy weapons right? I mean normally I would assume that you do, but since you have problems with other basic things, I can't be sure.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Birds_of_a_Feather
Caesar's legion buys energy weapons from the Van Graffs in "Birds of a Feather."

So you're now just going to go ahead and blatantly lie? When the legion shows up to buy they get ambushed and killed by the Van Graffs and the NCR who is backing the Van Graffs. No weapons were sold to the legion.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bright_Brotherhood
The bright cult can spawn with full blown plasma and lasers. Lasers may seem "low power" but they do spawn with plasma as well.

50 some odd ghouls who leave the Mojave almost immediately(at least if you help them?) That is not only a tiny amount of energy weapons considering the entire energy stockpile of 400,000,000 person society is left behind for them. But they also likely didn't have to fight much at all and thus used very little ammo. Who is going to attack a group of that many people with energy weapons? And the minute they are attacked they immediately retreated.

Why would the Enclave care about Sierra?

I don't know? What does this have to do with only the super wealthy could afford to build things to last? Is your argument that the guy with a vault full of gold was a poor person?

Or the National Guard depots?

Run by the super rich government? Yeah I'm sure they had budgetary problems...

I doubt the stuff in there would hold up to their standards.

Your thesis was based off the idea that the Enclave was obsessively controlling of resources that they didn't need and didn't care about. And now you're saying that they totally didn't care? You can't just change your statements back and forth at whim to suit your broken logic.

 

[Poppy JR.]

Because being good is too mainstream?

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

You went ape shit saying how Chris was forced by bethesda to cut it out.

Saying it makes no economic sense for him to do otherwise is the same as being forced? I do not think this word means what you think it means. Pick up a dictionary and try again.

Even though Bethesda didn't care in the first place or realized it existed.

Right... no one at Bethesda has ever heard of the Fallout Bible... that's totally believable. And hey no wonder their games were just shitty copy cat PA rpgs with little to do with fallout beyond power armor and vaults.

Bethesda didn't kill the fallout bible.

Still don't understand why you're arguing this. No one cares.

Vault 8 had the same chip since the war. No need to fuss with it. Only vault 13 had a water chip issue, and it was meant to have entire crates of chips to ration for a long time. See the issue here?

Yes the issues is that you didn't play the games. Vault 8 had backup chips and was never intended to stay underground for a long time hence a ton of water chips weren't necessary. That's like saying why ever should an underground bunker that intends to stay underground for 20x longer than the standard bunker bring a bunch of backup equipment. How about because they are going to be underground longer? It's not rocket science.

Vault city lets people in, but so did the BOS in Fallout 1. Both are heavily implied that they didn't really intend to let you in but did anyway when you got past their little trial.

BOS is but only because you're from a vault and not a dirty wastelander. Vault city lets people in all the time, they talk about trading with locals for food and water because they don't have a magic machine to make it for them.

Oh really? Faraday is going to save you? I don't see any faraday cage on anything, and everything was knocked out of commission by the bombs yet somehow 200 years later they suddenly work. Bombs that somehow, by your own Fallout Bible, can turn a person into a rotting immortal.

The bombs didn't do that dummy. FEV combined with the nuclear radiation to produce that effect in less concentrated doses than was used to create super mutants.

Casings can have Faraday cages inside of them, its not difficult. You have to protect electronics; not inert metal.

Bombs made by people who splice living things into one with a laser beam. People who make a virus that can mutate people on the genetic level without killing them and making them almost immortal. People who can make matter out of energy and reverse it. These people don't even follow real world science or even logic. How is faraday going to stop them if even the laws of the universe can't? Its obvious that Fallout doesn't give a shit about laws of nature or our technology, it has its own technology that is impossible.

I don't see anything wrong with any of that. Age is relativistically controlled by a set of fuses called telomeres that if modified by viruses could easily be slowed down or halted. Splicing can be performed as a byproduct of energy causing mutations in cells, so a laser could potentially if properly used cause such mutations. No matter is created so you're making that up completely. It transmutes already existing matter by using energy; which is something we already do, just not as successfully. So basically you're wrong on every level you could be.

A long time before the resource wars DOES give leeway. How long does it take for a couple geniuses to change the world? Given Big Mountain's case, not fucking long.

How long does it take for them to reverse the most basic laws of physics? Yeah that's not possible. Resource wars. Nuclear apocalypse. Rinse and repeat. War never changes. Your argument fails.

We are talking about a world where a scientist can genetically engineer a highly intelligent radscorpion in a post war world. He even made a talking spore plant. Again, logic and science does not stop mad scientists that seem to pop out of the woodwork and inventing things that run on troll physics.

Again, not that difficult and not even close to being impossible.

Hell, even the sierra Madre would be cracked. Prospectors seem to know about it, and rumors have to start somewhere.

Yeah they come from people getting the hell out of dodge after watching all their friends die trying to break in. Only the courier has any success. And s/he is pretty much a super soldier with fantastic skill in a number of mental pursuits and a myriad of other skills; backed up by a crack CoS Assassin, a demolitions expert who was at the casino when the bombs fell, one of the most powerful supermutants around, and a genius level BoS elder with extreme abilities to modify technology. Oh and the CoS assassin is now guarding the place. Yeah I'm going to figure prospectors won't crack it.

6. I said why would the Enclave care about Sierra Army depot? Its a bunch of weapons that aren't even guaranteed to be there. Especially when Fallout 2 implies they can make their own shit. Why would they leave caches of weapons and armor that can easily be raided and turned against them?

You argue that the Enclave is tactically dumb then in the next post you argue that the Enclave is smart. You can't have things both ways. Pick a side and stick to it.

These are people obsessed with controlling resources. They aren't going to leave a stockpile of weapons unguarded. We aren't talking about why didn't they destroy them. We are talking about why are they guarded. If your argument is that they can be easily raided then don't you think the Enclave would realize that too and you know, put some heavy fucking security on that shit? And doesn't that ruin your whole argument? Round and round and round we go.

I didn't mean resources in the Sierra as in fuel, I meant guns and armor. Even then, why would the Enclave destroy all the fuel in order to keep them? They would have doomed the world with that plan and them along with it. The fact that exhausted towns in our world still work in Fallout's world means the situation isn't as dire as you say it is.

The Sierra Madre was run by a crazy rich dude, not the Enclave. What in the flying fuck are you talking about.

You'd be dead in a week because the Hoover's pipes would clog with mussels, and the solar arrays would likely be damaged. Water pumps would run out of energy and you'd either die from dehydration or when the power runs out and food becomes scarce.

I've never heard of Native Americans either. Like this one time I lost electricity for 3 days and I almost died because I am clueless without technology to save me.

The last place you want to be stranded in is the fucking Mojave DESERT. Especially when your car is rendered useless, you would have the Long 15 to walk when the desert inevitably becomes too harsh. With no one manning the generators, everything else in Vegas collapses.

Do I really have to tell you that living in a desert, cut off from the rest of the world, is hard to do?

Ya but lyke it's only 1 hour to cross the entire mojave and heat stroke isn't a thing in the fallout universe because I am Ultratwinkie and I can't imagine that a universe wouldn't be 100% beautifully replicated in a videogame so anything that isn't in the videogame does not exist.

8. Yeah, and the crops in front of the homes is about 5-10 pieces of corn. That must be enough for a year until the reaping season comes. On top of the high water requirements those plants must need because you are in the fucking desert.

It's almost like they didn't render everything... Like there was implied stuff that you couldn't see because you're walking around in a miniature video game diorama of the real world. But that wouldn't be possible....

Even with the "varied diet" crap, the people in fallout don't eat a lot.

Big fucking citation needed.

I copied the fiend's armaments from the wiki, it seems even that pisses you off.

Missiles aren't made out of pure energy. You seem to have difficulty staying on topic.

10. Even then, the fact Caesar's legion wants energy weapons for its forces is telling enough.

So you lied and now you're going "WELL IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED!" but it didn't.

Didn't you say how energy is rare and no one uses energy weapons, bro? How the energy wars were upon us and batteries are a "treasure?" Either Caesar and by extension Fallout's writers didn't get the fucking memo that energy weapons are useless in an energy-less world, or you are fucking wrong.

When 99.999999% of the population dies comparatively there is more stuff. If we lost that many people everyone would be able to drive their own luxury sports car and have their own private yacht. It doesn't mean we have yachts all over the place; it just means that when you kill off almost everyone then there is tons of left over stuff compared to the number of people there are now.

Or maybe Caesar is ordering Unicorns and fairy dust to go along with his plasma rifle.

Caesar was lied to and led into a trap. Citing their lies as being totally true is silly.

Energy sure is hard to get huh, bro? Caesar has to go down to the big ass store that sells nothing but Energy Weapons, and just so happens to be linked to a huge supplier of energy weapons. Ain't that just fucked up and hard to get? /sarcasm

~400 million people died. Just because the last 20,000 people have a plethora of resources doesn't mean those resources will last forever. And again, Caesar was lied to and led into a trap. You're basing an argument off of a confirmed lie.

Oh and Dean Domino doesn't say Replicators were outside the Sierra Madre? I got a fucking video of him saying it. 15 minutes in.

I know; I just wanted to make you waste your time digging for it. It's actually irrelevant to the argument because energy isn't infinite nor can it support a large society.

12. Oh so NOW we don't trust machines no matter how reliable? What about the nuclear reactors then? How did we automate something like that, and still not trust it?

We don't? That was the whole point of my explaining why they aren't automated in the real world... reading comprehension please? The people in the fallout universe are different. They are willing to create sentient AIs. They are willing to have reactors basically run by robots VIA simple commands as seen in Gecko.

You keep going on about how I am flip flopping, but you are the one flip flopping here. How do we automate without automating, bro?

Still have no idea what you're talking about because you don't quote. We don't automate. Fallout people do. All the time.

Chris Haversam shows the vaults needed specialists for the reactors.

Well ignoring the fact that idle hands do bad things and so creating a player piano society would probably be a pretty bad idea especially when you are trying to objectively measure against test vaults designed to re-civilize the world, there's also the point that they can't build shit out of nothing.

They don't have replicators so creating new parts becomes complicated. Humans are Macgyvers. We can turn parts that weren't intended for a specific task into usable parts. If something were to break down that was beyond the programming of the reactor to compensate for, a well trained human specialist could come up with a solution. Computers are idiot savants who are really good at following specific directions, which makes day to day running of a reactor easy. But if every possible problem hasn't been programmed for including problems in sensor systems which would have to be checked by redundant sensor systems; then shit starts to break.

If a reactor hadn't been used for awhile and thus wear and tear wasn't a problem; using automated systems to run said reactor would be easy as shit in a society that was able to create a sentient AI.

Powder gangers don't even have the fucking training to use a first aid kit.

You're going to need a citation on that one. Hannigan is a powder ganger with 6 months of medical training. The reason he isn't sent out fighting isn't because he is the only one who can use a first aid kit. It's because he is the only one who can do more advanced stuff.

So how is that automated when you need training to work the reactor?

Because you don't. You just made that up. Gecko is run by a tribal off of a book he found lying around, because complicated maneuvers are performed by an automated system. S/he only needs to give the order of actions to the automated system.

This is my last post, reply or don't. Doesn't matter.

And it's as flawed as your first post.

 

[thetoddo]

Big thank you to Mycroft and Ultratwinkie for an enjoyable read.

Joining the Legion seems like it's a questline for people who want the most hardcore of the hardcore runs. I wouldn't have done them if not for being a completionist.

The only thing I'd add to the argument is that the Powder Gangers in the vault aren't there for the sulfur. It's a nice perk, but they were running from the NCR and chose to hide in the vault because the area was infested with Deathclaws and ranger patrols had stopped in the area. They were squatting and arguing with themselves about where to go next when you show up.