Next Hearthstone Expansion Revealed As Whispers of the Old Gods

[geizr]

The feature I would like to see most in Hearthstone is multi-player formats similar to old school MTG (double-headed giant, Emperor, 4-way free-all, and 5-way star). That would be the killer feature that would make me continuously toss money at Blizzard for Hearthstone. As it is, I've dabbled with it a couple times, even bought a few packs, but at the end, I just lost interest in the 1-v-1 (also, getting farmed in the ranks below 19 by these legendary decks of guys who were throwing games just to farm newbies and casuals didn't help my view of the game; however, as I understand, Blizzard has made strides to remedy that issue).

 

[rcs619]

The feature I would like to see most in Hearthstone is multi-player formats similar to old school MTG (double-headed giant, Emperor, 4-way free-all, and 5-way star). That would be the killer feature that would make me continuously toss money at Blizzard for Hearthstone. As it is, I've dabbled with it a couple times, even bought a few packs, but at the end, I just lost interest in the 1-v-1 (also, getting farmed in the ranks below 19 by these legendary decks of guys who were throwing games just to farm newbies and casuals didn't help my view of the game; however, as I understand, Blizzard has made strides to remedy that issue).

I'd definitely love more party-mode options, or even for them to develop a proper 2v2 mode. I still think they need to kind of get their house in order before they do that, but the new expansion and standard should do just that.

And yeah, here's hoping standard, reducing the cardpool and nerfing a bunch of old cards will level the playing field for newbies. It's a CCG and that inherently means that new players are going to be at some disadvantage compared to the older ones. That's just an inescapable part of the genre. But there are steps you can take to lessen that gap some and Blizzard seems to be moving in the right direction on that.

 

[Weaver]

"Them kids love that Lovecraft now-a-days, let's put that in our game"

14 years the old gods have been in Warcraft. Homage aside, they're an integral part of the Warcraft Lore and have been for quite some time.

Eh, get used to it. There was the whole misconception that the pandaren were taken from Kung Fu Panda back in the day after all. On the 'net, I've seen a few claiming that the idea is being taken from Bloodborne (because, y'know, it's not as if both settings could take inspiration from the 'Cthulu Mythos).

I just didn't play WoW - rather I played it for a day then deleted it.

WC 1 and 2 made no mention of the old gods or they weren't important to the story. That said I played these games 22 and 21 years ago respectively so I might not remember. WC3 to my memory just mentioned they're "chained beneath the earth" and gives no background to them.

Their Cthulu influence was not yet established (at least based on what I'm reading right now). Not having played WoW - where they're actually visually and tangibly linked to Lovecraft monsters - I had no idea. So even if they were in the lore, they weren't what they are now until WoW.

 

[MoltenSilver]

Honestly I'm way more curious to see which cards are next to be tossed into the pit of nerf-blivion. I think we can assume BGH is on its way down or out in some way as a C'Thun deck that pumps one creature is entirely laughable so long as BGH exists.

Which then leads to an interested 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Without cards like BGH, whoever gets the biggest fatty on the board first wins, and Handlock runs rampant over everything by playing 8/8s on turn 4 or multiple 8/8s in a single turn later on (making me think the giants may be in for a rough time on Blizzard's spanking saddle too). With BGH, big cards are unplayable as the tempo loss is devastating. I'm very interested to see what direction Blizzard takes with this, as how this expansion turns out will probably decide if I start playing more often or decide now's a good time to get out.

 

[Hawki]

"Them kids love that Lovecraft now-a-days, let's put that in our game"

14 years the old gods have been in Warcraft. Homage aside, they're an integral part of the Warcraft Lore and have been for quite some time.

Eh, get used to it. There was the whole misconception that the pandaren were taken from Kung Fu Panda back in the day after all. On the 'net, I've seen a few claiming that the idea is being taken from Bloodborne (because, y'know, it's not as if both settings could take inspiration from the 'Cthulu Mythos).

I just didn't play WoW - rather I played it for a day then deleted it.

WC 1 and 2 made no mention of the old gods or they weren't important to the story. That said I played these games 22 and 21 years ago respectively so I might not remember. WC3 to my memory just mentioned they're "chained beneath the earth" and gives no background to them.

Their Cthulu influence was not yet established (at least based on what I'm reading right now). Not having played WoW - where they're actually visually and tangibly linked to Lovecraft monsters - I had no idea. So even if they were in the lore, they weren't what they are now until WoW.

Actually, the Old Gods were explicitly mentioned by name in the Warcraft III manual, and detailed as such. Their nature, their number (five, but that's shifted a bit) their history with the titans, and the first hint given that they were responsible for the high elves leaving Silverpine. They were further explored in the War of the Ancients trilogy and The Frozen Throne, and their elemental lord lackeys were explored in Shadows and Light (possibly other RPG books as well, but I can't remember). So while WoW developed them further, there was a clear concept of what the Old Gods were as early as WC3, including the Lovecraftian influence (which, even ignoring Silverpine, was distinctly present by TFA and WotA).

 

[rcs619]

Honestly I'm way more curious to see which cards are next to be tossed into the pit of nerf-blivion. I think we can assume BGH is on its way down or out in some way as a C'Thun deck that pumps one creature is entirely laughable so long as BGH exists.

Which then leads to an interested 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Without cards like BGH, whoever gets the biggest fatty on the board first wins, and Handlock runs rampant over everything by playing 8/8s on turn 4 or multiple 8/8s in a single turn later on (making me think the giants may be in for a rough time on Blizzard's spanking saddle too). With BGH, big cards are unplayable as the tempo loss is devastating. I'm very interested to see what direction Blizzard takes with this, as how this expansion turns out will probably decide if I start playing more often or decide now's a good time to get out.

To be fair, pretty much every class in the game except for Druid has very good removal now. Warrior is spoiled for options to insta-kill big creatures. Mage still has two variants of polymorph (not even counting burn spells). Shaman has hex and earth shock (and a stupid amount of burst). Priest has shadow death and entomb. Rogue has assassinate, sap and pure burst. Warlock will still have siphon soul, but its individual target removal is kind of weak outside of that (warlock always had better AoE than single target). Paladin has equality, aldor and uldemon to keep biggies in check. Hunter will still have hunter's mark and deadly shot.

Druid is definitely hurting for some good removal (their single-target removals currently have some pretty big downsides slapped onto them), so losing BGH will hurt druid a bit. Maybe they'll get some removal tools in the expansion, or maybe they can just start using mulch or naturalize and deal with the downside.

Basically, there's more big-target removal in the game than there's ever been. BGH will just reduce it slightly, and make huge minions very slightly more viable. BGH is basically shadow word death with a 4/2 body slapped onto it. In terms of efficiency and tempo, it's probably the best single-removal in the game right now.

I think the giants are all fine. They all require very specific circumstances to play. Even the mountain giant basically requires you to not do anything for the first 4 turns. With how much better everyone's curve has become, that's a massive risk (bordering on suicidal) these days. There's a reason mountain giant was always the first card handlocks looked to cut when the meta got faster, and why renolock doesn't even run the things. I know that "8/8 on turn 4" pisses some people off, but in order to do that, they've had to give up all of their tempo (and as mentioned earlier, pretty much every class besides druid has multiple options to deal with that).

And molten giants are good, but they are also super easy to play around if you suspect a class is running them. Or you just get them to not-quite to half health, gain board presence and then burst them down. The worst offender in terms of molten giant use was Echo Mage, and that archetype will no longer be possible once Echo of Medivh is gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard handed out a few more big-target removal options to each class to make up for nerfing BGH though. Keep the amount of availible removal about the same, but just make sure it isn't as devastating tempo-wise.

 

[InflatableHippo]

The feature I would like to see most in Hearthstone is multi-player formats similar to old school MTG (double-headed giant, Emperor, 4-way free-all, and 5-way star). That would be the killer feature that would make me continuously toss money at Blizzard for Hearthstone. As it is, I've dabbled with it a couple times, even bought a few packs, but at the end, I just lost interest in the 1-v-1 (also, getting farmed in the ranks below 19 by these legendary decks of guys who were throwing games just to farm newbies and casuals didn't help my view of the game; however, as I understand, Blizzard has made strides to remedy that issue).

i feel the same way. i'm a ftp scrub and having gotten into hearthstone about 3-4 months ago i find the most enjoyment from tavern brawls and its a damn shame they only last for 5 days.

 

[BiscuitWheels]

Hopefully Rogues will get something meaty in this new set with Oil going away. Though with Loatheb and Sludge Belcher being put out to pasture, Miracle Rogue may make a comeback (but I hope not).
Also, Validated Doomsayer may be the best thing they ever put on a card.

 

[rcs619]

Hopefully Rogues will get something meaty in this new set with Oil going away. Though with Loatheb and Sludge Belcher being put out to pasture, Miracle Rogue may make a comeback (but I hope not).
Also, Validated Doomsayer may be the best thing they ever put on a card.

Unless they nerf some of the core/basic rogue cards I think malygos-rogue should be reasonably strong in standard. It's kind of a niche deck now, but it's not bad and it barely loses anything in the transition. Healbot is the biggest loss, but you can always sub in refreshment vendor instead (assuming we don't get a new healing minion in Whispers).

I may actually pick up rogue if maly-rogue turns out to be good. I really enjoy malygoslock, but I worry that losing darkbomb, imp gang-boss, imploison belcher and healbot may be a bit too much of a loss for it. Here's hoping we get some new stuff though, malygoslock is a lot of fun.

 

[MoltenSilver]

Spoiler

Honestly I'm way more curious to see which cards are next to be tossed into the pit of nerf-blivion. I think we can assume BGH is on its way down or out in some way as a C'Thun deck that pumps one creature is entirely laughable so long as BGH exists.

Which then leads to an interested 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Without cards like BGH, whoever gets the biggest fatty on the board first wins, and Handlock runs rampant over everything by playing 8/8s on turn 4 or multiple 8/8s in a single turn later on (making me think the giants may be in for a rough time on Blizzard's spanking saddle too). With BGH, big cards are unplayable as the tempo loss is devastating. I'm very interested to see what direction Blizzard takes with this, as how this expansion turns out will probably decide if I start playing more often or decide now's a good time to get out.

To be fair, pretty much every class in the game except for Druid has very good removal now. Warrior is spoiled for options to insta-kill big creatures. Mage still has two variants of polymorph (not even counting burn spells). Shaman has hex and earth shock (and a stupid amount of burst). Priest has shadow death and entomb. Rogue has assassinate, sap and pure burst. Warlock will still have siphon soul, but its individual target removal is kind of weak outside of that (warlock always had better AoE than single target). Paladin has equality, aldor and uldemon to keep biggies in check. Hunter will still have hunter's mark and deadly shot.

Druid is definitely hurting for some good removal (their single-target removals currently have some pretty big downsides slapped onto them), so losing BGH will hurt druid a bit. Maybe they'll get some removal tools in the expansion, or maybe they can just start using mulch or naturalize and deal with the downside.

Basically, there's more big-target removal in the game than there's ever been. BGH will just reduce it slightly, and make huge minions very slightly more viable. BGH is basically shadow word death with a 4/2 body slapped onto it. In terms of efficiency and tempo, it's probably the best single-removal in the game right now.

I think the giants are all fine. They all require very specific circumstances to play. Even the mountain giant basically requires you to not do anything for the first 4 turns. With how much better everyone's curve has become, that's a massive risk (bordering on suicidal) these days. There's a reason mountain giant was always the first card handlocks looked to cut when the meta got faster, and why renolock doesn't even run the things. I know that "8/8 on turn 4" pisses some people off, but in order to do that, they've had to give up all of their tempo (and as mentioned earlier, pretty much every class besides druid has multiple options to deal with that).

And molten giants are good, but they are also super easy to play around if you suspect a class is running them. Or you just get them to not-quite to half health, gain board presence and then burst them down. The worst offender in terms of molten giant use was Echo Mage, and that archetype will no longer be possible once Echo of Medivh is gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard handed out a few more big-target removal options to each class to make up for nerfing BGH though. Keep the amount of availible removal about the same, but just make sure it isn't as devastating tempo-wise.

I'm going to disagree and feel that is a large understatement of the effect of losing BGH. The difference between Shadow Word: Death and Shadow Word: Death + 4/2 body is a massive gap, that 4/2 can threaten an Azure Drake and even if its just a minor acknowledgement nonetheless does mean your opponent lost an action of some sort dealing with it (or had to use AOE). And that's just in the best comparison; Assassinate vs BGH is two extra mana and produces no body: at 10 mana that's the difference between getting to play Azure Drake or Doctor Boom with your remaining mana, that's huge. The existence of Big Game Hunter isn't the only reason the other removal options aren't run, despite how many of them exist they are just too slow and you're almost always better off having a 5 mana minion in your deck than Assassinate. Granted this could change if the game slows down, but I have my doubts Blizzard will ever encourage that kind of metagame given they're trying to push this as a 'play on the bus/waiting room/toilet' kind of game. Of course this does hit some classes harder than others, but even for a removal-spoiled class like priest it still forces the choice of 'do you run something more expensive to replace it, or accept that you're down 1 removal?'

As for giants, I also disagree: there is a reason Handlock has been around since the earliest days of the beta, and while you're right about it being vulnerable to burst damage that's nearly the only thing it is vulnerable to; it runs over control and honest-playing midrange decks like a freight train. It doesn't do half-bad either against aggro decks that rely on minion finishers (Ie. Zoo) because at some point or another, that deck will have to hit you below 15 damage, and either they do it too soon and wind up with Molten/D.Argus/Molten staring them down, or they fear the molten giants for too long and get shadowflamed.

 

[rcs619]

I'm going to disagree and feel that is a large understatement of the effect of losing BGH. The difference between Shadow Word: Death and Shadow Word: Death + 4/2 body is a massive gap, that 4/2 can threaten an Azure Drake and even if its just a minor acknowledgement nonetheless does mean your opponent lost an action of some sort dealing with it (or had to use AOE). And that's just in the best comparison; Assassinate vs BGH is two extra mana and produces no body: at 10 mana that's the difference between getting to play Azure Drake or Doctor Boom with your remaining mana, that's huge. The existence of Big Game Hunter isn't the only reason the other removal options aren't run, despite how many of them exist they are just too slow and you're almost always better off having a 5 mana minion in your deck than Assassinate. Granted this could change if the game slows down, but I have my doubts Blizzard will ever encourage that kind of metagame given they're trying to push this as a 'play on the bus/waiting room/toilet' kind of game.

As for giants, I also disagree: there is a reason Handlock has been around since the earliest days of the beta, and while you're right about it being vulnerable to burst damage that's nearly the only thing it is vulnerable to; it runs over control and honest-playing midrange decks like a freight train. It doesn't do half-bad either against aggro decks that rely on minion finishers (Ie. Zoo) because at some point or another, that deck will have to hit you below 15 damage, and either they do it too soon and wind up with Molten/D.Argus/Molten staring them down, or they fear the molten giants for too long and get shadowflamed.

That's kind of the main issue with BGH. He's got too much of a tempo-swing. Not only does he remove the biggest minions in the game, but he also puts a decent body on the board. Spending mana to specifically remove a single target shouldn't be a tempo play and no other removal option does that besides BGH.

Handlock is an anti-control deck. It's specifically geared to outlast control (and slower midrange decks), but it has a lot of trouble against aggro and up-tempo decks. That's why the oldschool, traditional handlock hasn't been a major player in the meta since the warsong nerf (and the main reason it was hanging on then is because it did so well against patron). The only reason renolock works in the current meta is because it has the most healing in the game (healbots, sometimes earthen ring/refreshment vendor, reno jackson along with Brann Bronzebeard and Jaraxxus). Well, and because it doesn't actually wait until turn 4 to start playing the game.

Also zoo is a control deck, not an aggro deck. It just uses minions instead of spells. You don't even think about hitting face with zoo until you have the board locked down with your minions.

But yeah, I'd love for the meta to slow down. It'd be great to finally be able to break out mountain giants or a traditional sort of handlock again. Reno is fun, but I miss oldschool handlock and It's been forever since I've been able to play it. Unless I'm scumming out a quest, aggro just doesn't appeal to me at all. I prefer decks that have a gimmick to them, or a unique playstyle. Just slamming down minions on curve isn't very fun for me.

 

[MoltenSilver]

That's kind of the main issue with BGH. He's got too much of a tempo-swing. Not only does he remove the biggest minions in the game, but he also puts a decent body on the board. Spending mana to specifically remove a single target shouldn't be a tempo play and no other removal option does that besides BGH.

Note I never said I feel that the existence of BGH is a good thing, I just felt you were understating the impact that losing it would have because of just how massive the gap is between it and other removals. It'll be interesting to see whether Blizzard adds new more efficient removals to compensate or if the game will become about big minions.

Handlock is an anti-control deck. It's specifically geared to outlast control (and slower midrange decks), but it has a lot of trouble against aggro and up-tempo decks. That's why the oldschool, traditional handlock hasn't been a major player in the meta since the warsong nerf (and the main reason it was hanging on then is because it did so well against patron). The only reason renolock works in the current meta is because it has the most healing in the game (healbots, sometimes earthen ring/refreshment vendor, reno jackson along with Brann Bronzebeard and Jaraxxus). Well, and because it doesn't actually wait until turn 4 to start playing the game.

All I can really counter this with is anecdotal evidence; I've seen a large amount of Handlock every time I've played the game until now where Renolock has displaced it. Maybe I've had a bizzare run of coincidence and my experience is atypical. In my experience the 'waiting until turn 4' isn't much of a disadvantage given just how quickly giants let one catch up on board, the loss of health is actually an advantage, and the insane amount of AoE Warlock has access to.

Also zoo is a control deck, not an aggro deck. It just uses minions instead of spells. You don't even think about hitting face with zoo until you have the board locked down with your minions.

Apologies, I misspoke in haste; I should have said 'low-curving minion decks'

But yeah, I'd love for the meta to slow down. It'd be great to finally be able to break out mountain giants or a traditional sort of handlock again. Reno is fun, but I miss oldschool handlock and It's been forever since I've been able to play it. Unless I'm scumming out a quest, aggro just doesn't appeal to me at all. I prefer decks that have a gimmick to them, or a unique playstyle. Just slamming down minions on curve isn't very fun for me.

I fully agree here, I just have low expectations for it actually changing; the rewards system in the game, the fact that Blizzard wants to court the mobile audience, and the tempo-reliant style of gameplay inherently incentivize fast-win decks with little regard to actual win-rate, and I have trouble imagining Blizzard completely overhauling all of it. The most I'd hope for is Blizzard fidning a way to make fast decks actually engaging to play, but given fast-decks' reliance on curve and winning before the game becomes interactive that seems like an oxymoron.