Ni No Kuni: Wrath of the Confusing JRPG

Niccolo

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the antithesis said:
There is one thing that I can think of that could up the ante in turn-based combat. The two Legaia games for the PlayStations had turn-based combat where instead of both parties standing in a line like it was a football scrimmage, they would move about into position organically on the battle field. I don't think this was anything more than window dressing, though, as you could easily run up to a monster on the far side of the battle with no penalty or using up you move points or anything like that. I don't know if turn based games have ever expanded on this idea, but it seems like one that they should have if they didn't
Ever played any of the Tactics games? They're basically exactly what you're describing. Move your soldiers into optimum position (You can only move a certain distance per turn) and fire away.

There's a lot of games in the Tactics genre, if you know where to look. Final Fantasy Tactics, X-Com, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Disgaea and so on.
 

oldtaku

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but do we really have to micro-manage all their sodding equipment as well, swapping it all out every single time we switch the current lineup around? Not to mention having to decide what sweeties to force-feed them with for the associated buffs.
Sorry, but kids love this s$#@. Not all of them, for sure, but kids have all the time in the world. Holy hell, just look at Pokemon. When you get older, yeah, it's annoying. There are tons of things I put up quite happily as a young gamer than I won't put up with now. Also suspect pre-teens at least will do better at the real time combat.

We're old, son.
 

Kuredan

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Dec 4, 2012
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I've been of the same opinion on JPRGs as Yahtzee for a while. The last JRPGs I enjoyed were FFVI and Chrono Trigger. Looking back on them now, I remember the good times I had, but I don't think I could play them now. All RPGs have repetition in it, but JRPGs have the most contrived ways to extend gameplay. It's on par with the old fashioned shooters that made you get key cards to get to the next area. It's an outmoded type of game mechanic or 'carrot' and it's completely out of touch with a large portion of the gaming market. I suppose JRPGs will always exist as a niche, but I think I've grown beyond them.

And in response to the claims that JRPGs have "Interesting fantasy settings", you're certainly entitled to your opinion but respectfully I don't see them as all that original. I remember the Final Fantasy series in particular just grabbed whatever mythology they wanted and smooshed them together. Then there's the "There's a church/ religion/ authority figure that appears to be good- but it's EVIL... ooooooh a tweeeeest!" theme that exists in quite a few of them... yawn. Don't get me wrong, every once and while to you get a game where the main character is a dream trapped in a illusion and it has Donald Duck, but most of them are pretty meh.
 

Sectan

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"Poke the Mons" Heh heh. Giggity
Does Pokemon count as a JRPG? If so it would be the only one I've played. I loved the game, but hated the grinding.
 

JudgeGame

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As someone who enjoys JRPGs infinitely more than Yahtzee, I find all the complaints in this article very valod and relevant. Shoeing in an action element into a JRPG should be done thoroughly or not at all. A good set of mechanics for action combat are expensive to develop and often aren't as fulfilling as a decent turn-based combat mechanic.

JRPGs in general need to invest greater efforts in good puzzle design. A good puzzle can keep players involved much longer than a slightly less difficult to program fetch quest. Good turn-based combat is a perfect example of puzzle design. Creating a logical set of steps to carry out a fetch quest can be a legitimately interesting puzzle.
 

Combustion Kevin

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I have always wondered wether Japan's conservative cultural traditions may have caused this slow (if any) advancements in their RPG's, some studios there clearly think this is "the way" to do it, or it's not a proper RPG.
The same may be said for it's themes and tropes in other media, such as anime, manga, TV shows or movies.

Or maybe they are a lot more careful about their investments, the same could be said for big publishers in the west, but even the Japanese start-up studios make games from these very clear, well, blueprints if you will, whereas western start-up and indy developers try the strangest things to stand out in terms of gameplay and design.

for better or for worse.
 

GabeZhul

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<quote=Yahtzee>
Like the whole "visual novel" thing that uses all the advanced gaming technology at our disposal to recreate Fighting Fantasy books occasionally with still images of hardcore fucking.

Because you treat them like games. They are not. They are VISUAL NOVELS. Different medium, different tropes, different goals.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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I pretty much love Ni No Kuni, as it brings to modern day AD 2013 what got me hooked on japcrap 16bit adventuring back in the days. Plus Ghibli animations and a form of delivery of pokemon and tamagotchi crap I find palatable.

In short:

Ni No Kuni is Dark Souls, with easy mode. As it is not Dark Souls itself, has cutesy crap and a bombastic, orchestral soundtrack, I find it to be perfect gaming bliss, until I eventually decide to finish it, and then I'll most probably stop playing it. Dark Souls I'll play until it breaks, the PS3 breaks, the computer breaks or I stop being metabolically active.

Ni No Kuni is a sweet, sweet ride. All the grind we did up to now was completely optional and only happened because we wanted to cook up some fancy robes or a hard-hitting axe for the tank tamagotchi pokemon thing.
 

Marik2

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Everyone is like "oh, Okami is so great". But this issue - the thing where you can't solve the puzzle until an NPC tells you how - is really annoying.
Well to be fair, all the people who say that are talking about the aesthetics not so much the gameplay.

People like it cuz it's just something different
 

Bertylicious

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oldtaku said:
but do we really have to micro-manage all their sodding equipment as well, swapping it all out every single time we switch the current lineup around? Not to mention having to decide what sweeties to force-feed them with for the associated buffs.
Sorry, but kids love this s$#@. Not all of them, for sure, but kids have all the time in the world. Holy hell, just look at Pokemon. When you get older, yeah, it's annoying. There are tons of things I put up quite happily as a young gamer than I won't put up with now. Also suspect pre-teens at least will do better at the real time combat.

We're old, son.
Pokémon, pogz, baseball cards and marbles for kids is no different than art collecting or antiquing for adults.

I was born with one finger up my nose and the other on my dick and I just got taller.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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Capitano Segnaposto said:
Is it sad that I still haven't finished Dark Souls? I keep creating new characters every time I get to Blighttown.
If it is not a giant aversion to spiders that's keeping you from penetrating the laggy swampy toxic dart blower containing hell hole that is Blighttown, you'll eventually have to want to move on.

I personally prefer the back entrance from the valley of the drakes. Just slow moving giant uglies that fling poop at you and want to squash you with the trees they wield and bugs. And ladders. And a handy elevator that will most probably kill you until you figure it out. They'll hunt you, and they obviously know the place better than you do, as they seem to live there.

I spent a lot of time at the bottom of Blighttown for farming large and green titanite shards, but I really don't feel like going for the long route any more than absolutely necessary. The troglodyte zombie demon freaks freak me the hell out.

Good news is this, if it is actually is news to you: The blowdart sniper rogues don't respawn once you kill them, and figuring out how to kill them without getting intoxicated was the biggest obstacle for me and everyone I know that finished Dark Souls.

It's not sad. You're just cheating yourself out of everything that follows, which is awesome vistas and just generally the most beautiful and amazing places I've yet seen. Rafters. Eternal sunset. The meandering shore of Ash Lake. Takeshi's Castle, Dark Souls edition. Plenty more things that want to kill you. More of those horrible, horrible frogs with Grave's disease. A place that looks like hell. Friendly folks that will turn your head into a maggot hatchery, if you let them.

So, you've never seen the Painted World yet? OK, I'd have to agree, then. Yes, it is quite sad. But you will have your reasons.
 

head desk tricycle

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I always find it strange when people call Zelda 'kiddie.' To me, a kiddie game is a game where you don't have to remember or understand things. For example, a game that's fast and loud and it lets you pretend that you're a big strong grown-up that's as strong as Superman and can shoot real guns. Or whatever the girly equivalent of that is, it's not Zelda though, that's for sure.
 

Second World

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I'm not convinced that turn-based gameplay has been "perfected." If anything there hasn't been enough variation on the 1986 Dragon Quest formula. ("Let's make it an action adventure." isn't improving gameplay, it's scrapping strategy for something more accepted.)

RPGs are strategy games and like board games, which weren't perfected a thousand years ago with Backgammon, they're not going to expand as long as they stick too close to Dragon Quest, Wizardry, Ultima, and D&D. RPGs, quite frankly, haven't quite reached their Monopoly, Guess Who, Ticket to Ride, and Scrabble days yet.

JRPGs have barely expanded on the facets that set them apart from Dragon Quest. Going back a great number of years, many of the games have strategic elements that were glossed over once, then barely expanded on while everyone else copied them.

(1987) Final Fantasy 1 has your characters stuck in their commands. In other words, if an enemy or ally dies, your character will still try to attack or heal them. Thus, strategic foresight was a necessity.

(1987) Megami Tensei had monster catching, fusing, and an Auto system.
(the monster system was then adopted by Pokemon which was adopted by.. everyone?)

(1991) Final Fantasy IV had the Active Time Battle system which (unlike a speed stat) made it possible for enemies to interrupt strategies randomly, leaving room for error. This left room for complex strategy in battle as the system could have easily evolved this as new enemy actions get introduced. Instead, the system eventually evolved into Final Fantasy XIII's... which Square still seems to be trying to "perfect"..

(1992) Lunar: The Silver Star had distance penalties (where character placement was an active issue)

(1992) Shining Force allowed you to recruit a massive number of characters, all with unique abilities and equipment. You could swap them in and out via a central base. It and Fire Emblem's gameplay are the basis of nearly all Japanese "tactics" games.

(1993) Secret of Mana had weapons and magic actively level up as used.

(1994) Earthbound (Mother 2) had odometer health, requiring the player to think ahead a before deciding whether to continue the offensive.

(1994) Final Fantasy VI had desperation attacks and equip-able magic-teaching mediums.

(1995) Chrono Trigger had combo attacks

(1995) Lufia II featured interactive environments and puzzles rather than empty corridors of chests and monsters. Also featured an "Anger Gauge" that allowed you to use the special powers equipment if you took enough damage. The result was magic gauge whose spells were unique to nearly every weapon and armor you could equip.

(1996) Madou Monogatari: Hanamaru Daiyouchienji removes the health bar, enemies send the character flying, and the character's facial expression determines her status.

(1997) Final Fantasy VII allowed you to customize your skills by combining them with modifiers.

(1998) Panzer Dragoon Saga...

(2002) Xenosaga has environmental features that you could activate that effect the enemy before you fight them.

(2003) Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne has the "press turn system" where criticals, weaknesses, dodging, blocking, and reflecting have massive penalties. It also features Magatama, which give your character strengths & weaknesses when equipped in exchange for skills when you level up.

(2008) Valkyria Chronicles introduces turn-based strategy to a HIGHLY hostile real-time environment.

(2012) Final Fantasy XIII-2 has... semi-interactive cinematic gameplay

I'm pretty sure turn-based strategy games are just starting to see innovation.
Maybe the generation of developers that remembers the days of Wizardry, D&D, and Dragon Quest are finally retiring.
 

Gypsyssilver

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oldtaku said:
but do we really have to micro-manage all their sodding equipment as well, swapping it all out every single time we switch the current lineup around? Not to mention having to decide what sweeties to force-feed them with for the associated buffs.
Sorry, but kids love this s$#@. Not all of them, for sure, but kids have all the time in the world. Holy hell, just look at Pokemon. When you get older, yeah, it's annoying. There are tons of things I put up quite happily as a young gamer than I won't put up with now. Also suspect pre-teens at least will do better at the real time combat.

We're old, son.

Heh, it's true.

I was the queen of grind when I was a kid.

Fight the same bug monster 343 times in order to move to the next level? Sure thing!

Micromanage my inventory, swapping it around every three seconds? God, yes! Everyone look at my awesome new game...

These days, however I'm more likely to do a cost-benefit analysis of the game with regard to bullshit-gone-through vs payoff. A lot of games fail that analysis.
 

InvisibleMan

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Yahtzee: "But then again, it's entirely possible we are living in backwards world where all the kids are playing Black Ops and Warhammer 40k and only the adult gamers play the nice wholesome power of friendship innocent fairy tale RPGs in a futile effort to cling to their fading youth."

BING! You are correct, sir!! That's exactly what's happening, and I also think that's exactly the reason we grown ups are still playing those JRPGs...
 

deadish

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it's a cartoon fantasy in which you play a small boy whose main objective is to continue postponing the moment when he has to grow up and stop being such a little pussy, all of which points to kiddie game for me.
I haven't played the game but ... perhaps this is what is know as a "coming of age" story.

With regards to Turn-based combat. I never understood why they didn't stick with it instead of shoehorning real-time into JRPG's group based combat. It's nigh impossible to control more than one character at a time in real-time combat without things becoming a chaotic mess.
 

Howling Din

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Yahtzee, you filthy, slimy, arrogant, cynical, British piece of rat crap! You: "turn-based combat cannot possibly be improved upon, unless, of course you edge real-time into it."
You are on the spotlight, man! I know you might be sick of it, but that's no excuse to be narrow-minded.
Turn-based combat is not a bound fork to two different forms of failure.
Have a look at Grandia. Maybe then you'll learn there are still things in this world you have yet to discover.