So, opening your mouth and pissing people off is completely different from opening your mouth and pissing people off in an UNAUTHORIZED manner???
That's the biggest reach I've seen in a while. Sorry, not buying it.
Orth opened mouth, made people angry, Microsoft did damage control and apologized for his actions even after disowning him from the company. That's a full on admission and attempted diffusing of bad press right there.
So lets just stop trying to hide behind technicalities and admit the bleeding obvious.
Now for microsoft, yes they got bad press, but they got a lot of buzz about the new system that they wouldn't otherwise have had at the moment. Everyone was talking about the new xbox and will it have online only and not and they still are.
I get what you're trying to say, but it's not so simple as "Any buzz is good buzz".
Hype/buzz etc are about getting people's attention and manipulating them while you have their attention.
But you still have to swing them over to your side once you have their attention. Getting their attention and then pissing them off once you have it is BAD.
Microsoft needs to renege on the Always Online DRM and disprove the rumors. Then the bad press becomes better and people are talking about your system in ways that don't involve going to your competition instead.
That's why I don't buy into the "No such thing as bad press, because people are talking about you"; it's only half the process under ideal circumstances.
UPDATE: And HEYYYY!
On the announcement, Sony's stock climbed 9% while Microsoft's fell a bit!
Looks like that Bad Press did have an effect after all!
PS: Finishing your 1200 word post with "It's a waste of time, and unlike LPers, I actually have things to do with that time." makes you sound like a complete moron because you clearly do not.
That Parthian Shot is the beautiful red cherry on a cake made of total nonsense; It completes the package.
My favorite part was when he accused vague nobodies of being hypocrites. TWICE.
It's like he wanted to scream that accusation at other people in the thread, but couldn't for fear of mod wrath.
So he just yelled at nobody instead.
Another incident of someone acting like a short-sighted idiot and a jerk at the same time. Well, I am once again embarrassed to be a human being, nice job everyone, nice job.
PS: Finishing your 1200 word post with "It's a waste of time, and unlike LPers, I actually have things to do with that time." makes you sound like a complete moron because you clearly do not.
That Parthian Shot is the beautiful red cherry on a cake made of total nonsense; It completes the package.
My favorite part was when he accused vague nobodies of being hypocrites. TWICE.
It's like he wanted to scream that accusation at other people in the thread, but couldn't for fear of mod wrath.
So he just yelled at nobody instead.
Well, given that I'm willing to bet he's going through my posts and flagging them for warnings since I just got two, I can see why he does that.
~Might want to edit your post too while you can.~
CriticKitten said:
But yes, keep insulting me for disagreeing with you about a topic on the internet, you're clearly so much higher brow than I am and I tip my top hat at your class, sirs.
I'll save my time writing long posts that people don't read, as other people have already said and made the points I would otherwise make. I'll leave it to them.
It's not insulting to point out to your dissonance, it's a recognition of reality. Your account is under 2 years old, you have nearly 900 posts and none of them are under a hundred words. Most of them are walls of text. So you clearly have all the free time in the world. Don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming otherwise.
I'll save my time writing long posts that people don't read, as other people have already said and made the points I would otherwise make. I'll leave it to them.
OK, so if people aren't reading your posts as you claim, then why are you responding again?
But please, do keep talking about "saving your time"...
CriticKitten said:
Feel free to try again, but this time try to come prepared with a valid point. Or better yet, please don't bother. I'm not going to entertain this nonsense any further. It's a waste of time, and unlike LPers, I actually have things to do with that time.
I agree. It has been fun.
I loved the part where you said you had better things to do, and then came back again anyway, hypocrite.
CriticKitten said:
You've done absolutely nothing to actually dismiss my arguments about how a significant portion of LPers do not "spend thousands" and do not utilize "significant editing".
They don't have to disprove that, actually.
Because your definition of "real job/work" is purely arbitrary and thus, not at all objective.
You're Moving the Goalposts, repeatedly.
You've yet to point out how an LP falls under Fair Use when others have pointed out that it's easily argued that LPs do NOT fall under Fair Use at all, due to the massive quantities of copyrighted content they require in order to be entertaining as videos. You don't have a response beyond the repetition of the same, already dismissed, stale points.
Fair Use is done on a case-by-case basis. Yes, many LPs violate Fair Use. Not all of them do.
Plus, not all countries or even courts abide by the DMCA in the same way as the US does because of that basis, nor would it matter because there really isn't a solid precedent for Lets Plays in this context; it's a legal grey area.
If you know of such a precedent, that would be evidence in your favor, but you have failed to even ATTEMPT to provide as such.
And some of you have spent the better part of your posts insulting me personally or just repeating how I "don't get it", rather than actually addressing any of these claims, but are quick to pretend that I'm the one being insulting and demeaning.
Perhaps you just don't see it, but right here, you are presuming to think for everyone.
That is condescending and preachy. It pisses people off.
I imagine most of you SAY you would....but secretly you'd be ditching your YouTube subscriptions left and right. Keep up the good fight, ye hypocrites.
Full on condescension, and calling people hypocrites in a purely negative context.
Better still, we have no idea WHO you're addressing this to, so it is utterly ridiculous and thus, completely pointless.
The fact that some of you are actually mocking the length of my posts as if that's somehow a valid point of attack is a sad commentary about how one-sided this argument really is.
Yeah, you did. When you wielded PURELY ARBITRARY DEFINITIONS AS FACT.
What you consider "hard work" or "a real job" is your business; stop pretending that it's accepted the world over as fact.
And even other LPers have come out and said that this is a reasonable approach, given how poorly copyright law is written. This is just me watching the lot of you try to wriggle some manner of victory out of this.
If the law has problems in practice, then why shouldn't we question the law? Laws can be rewritten and revised.
Copyright Law in particular has been in DIRE NEED of revision simply because of how much the world has changed since the DMCA, and there is an AWFUL lot of grievances with consumer safety that need addressing on top of that.
And even in the absence of all that legal crap, there is one simple fact:
Nintendo stands to gain NOTHING by doing this in the long run.
They claim the ad-revenue, the paid LPers stop doing Nintendo games. Nintendo no longer gets the ad-revenue and pisses people off. Simple cause and effect.
Just a moment ago you were doing the Fainting Daisy routine, where all of these horrible lowly people keep picking on you when you "clearly" have the moral high ground, and then you whiplash right back to condescending smugness.
The fact that some of you are actually mocking the length of my posts as if that's somehow a valid point of attack is a sad commentary about how one-sided this argument really is. It's clear which side is the educated side of the debate, and which of us is not.
Being overly verbose for the sake of being overly verbose is not a sign of education; it's masturbatory. Conveying an idea, fact or sentiment concisely in as few words as possible: that's a sign of education.
Don't forget his claim in not believing in IP rights then following it with that statement that essentially says Nintendo deserves all the money from any video that contain their IP.
Or spending four paragraphs essentially saying a let's player time and effort is not worthy of any kind of reimbursement, using only anecdotal evidence of his own time making LPs to support his claim which he later goes on to refute others for their contradictory anecdotal evidence, thus demanding hard evidence to refute his claim while ignoring his burden of proof.
Or making references to how cheap and easy it is to make simple LPs of PC games then using that as an arguing point of why LPs of Nintendo games are also cheap and easy to produce even though they don't make PC games.
Wow this list of 'or's just goes on and on..
CriticKitten said:
Orekoya said:
Being overly verbose for the sake of being overly verbose is not a sign of education; it's masturbatory. Conveying an idea, fact or sentiment concisely in as few words as possible: that's a sign of education.
Are you being serious or is this appeal to extreme fallacy even remotely thought out? Because first off intellectual pursuit is more often than not the primary objective of works produced businesses or politicians and frankly 'all major works', whatever the hell that even means or why you would bring it up, would typically include a myriad of ideas being expressed or a set of facts that are trying to be established, usually those scenarios being accompanied with statistical data to back it up, if intellectual pursuit was their purpose.
Whereas you've dedicated an absurd of text to just saying the same thing over and over again, supplying anecdotal evidence, damning imaginary hypocrites and naysayers who would dare defy your logic whilst providing no crucial evidence to ludicrously demeaning claims and statements that I would be charitable in only calling "troll-bait". All the while, acting in generally a condescending, disrespectful manner and peppering your responses with such comments that add little more to the conversation than 'hurr durr look at how the retards get butthurt from my superior comments'. "Because it's so much fun watching you guys." and "But please, keep trying. It's fun to watch." are trolling phrases, pure and simple. They should not be used by anyone crying for academic integrity as a shield over the quality of their posts.
CriticKitten said:
I don't disagree that being able to convey an idea in simple terms to someone who doesn't understand the concepts being presented is indeed a sign of intellect, in fact that's really the basis of teaching. But the notion that the length of a work in any way detracts from the intellectual level of its contents is the sort of ignorant stance used by someone who just doesn't want to read long paragraphs of text. It's certainly not the stance of an academic.
I will convey this in simple, concise terms since you don't seem to understand the concept: More does not equal better.
In fact, the length of a work actively detracts from said work when it is artificially inflated for the sake of being inflated.
Example: A game with eight hours of content that is stretched over forty hours solely so the company could advertise that their game had forty hours of gameplay would not be as good as the same game with just the eight hours of content.
I examined your 2000+ words spread over those three post. I distilled the argument points and removed the pointless fluff, ranting, belittling comments, and in general nonsense. I got the entire mess down to just over 400 words which is shorter than any of the three individual posts I was working with, while still conveying all the ideas in your bloated posts.
Nintendo is not the first company to take action against Let's Players and they are at least not blocking the videos, just collecting the generated ad revenue on videos containing their IP. While I don't believe in IP rights I concede that this is a better alternative to what other companies have done in the past and that the company was clearly doing this with the intention of trying to resolve this issue in a fair manner.
Sorry LPers, but you are not entitled to make money off another person's IP as Let's Plays are a labor of love, not a commercial industry nor a viable method of long-term employment. I am aware that many LPers buy professional grade recording equipment and prepare their commentary for their posted video content but they are the exception to the rule as most will simply take the path of least resistance in producing their videos. The amount of work involved in any LP pales in comparison to the work done by video game reviewers or critics. Even the expenses of the professional LPers pale in comparison to the cost developers paid to create the content. I personally do not expect compensation for my hobby projects built from other people's work especially when their work makes up the bulk of the final product, and you shouldn't either: no matter how much time and effort you put into the LP creation process as LPers are little more than video game aggregators. The only reason this mentality even pervades to this day is because it does not cost their viewers anything to watch an ad. Likely, most of those louder objections are simply being done so to rally more gamers against Nintendo in an fanboy crusade.
If your interest is in video games and you want to pursue a career in it then make your own or test them because recorded footage of anothers property with your commentary is not your property to trade no matter the condition of the market. Fair Use is not a defense when other people's content makes up the majority of your content. If you can't pursue these careers right now then spend your free time going back to school and learn viable skills for other types of jobs instead. Work when you can and pursue your desired job. I am not jealous of those who don't wish to pursue this path: it worked for me, it could work for them too.
I don't need your approval, just your response will do.
And yet many of the counter-claims are not only arbitrary but entirely fictitious. How they spend "thousands" and "work for countless hours" being chief among them.
Sloppy editing and single take productions take maybe an hour to do, less if you're experienced.
And that assumes the player had a good run.
Proper editing, synching audio, or commenting on top of existing footage in a way that isn't shit takes practice and usually multiple takes unless you're really experienced. Multiply the time spent editing clips (which you may not even use) and work for gathering footage by the number of takes as appropriate.
Yes, that often adds up to multiple hours.
Being witty memorable and entertaining on top of that is an even bigger challenge.
Some Lets Plays even run off written scripts.
In any case, the really sloppy LPers you're railing against are by far and large NOT the ones being offered ad-revenue unless they're exceptional in some way or another, and even if they're being offered ad-revenue, it won't be all that much unless they somehow distinguish themselves in some manner.
As someone who has done LPs at an amateur level (which is the source of most of the complaints against this policy), neither of these is a true statement.
For the people who are using professional editing and recording, I know it is, because I've worked with, and repaired that equipment before (friends in COMs and Film class, and I'm getting into Digital Photography and Recording to supplement my career in Meteorology).
I know for a fact it isn't cheap. A digital SLR with anything above ASS resolution is easily 2 grand.
While the camera won't be used for an LP, most of the equipment and software will be unless you want it to be some shit crapped out by FRAPS or Vegas.
But enough of the anecdotal crap, the biggest problem I have with your argument about marginalizing the work and cost is remarkably simple: Why does it even matter if the bar for entry is low?
Mocking the cheapness of production is an incredibly petty and shallow attempt to undercut the value others place in the entertainment. Even your little spiel about Avertisers putting in more effort is silly when you actually think about it (advertisements in practice convert what would normally be a blunt Monetary Cost in an Opportunity Cost, which is far easier for most of the market to bear.)
The ability to express and comment on things you enjoy is one of the marvels of the 21st century.
Advertisers love it because it gets them hits, LPers love it because they can make money doing something they enjoy (and how DARE they do that!), and Nintendo et al has noting to lose because, hey, exposure drives up interest in gaming which helps drive up demand. People wouldn't do LPs if they didn't care, and by extension, they wouldn't have an audience.
So really, it makes no sense to mock and marginalize the ability for gamers do that in the first place.
I might have been more inclined to believe your "Entitlement" argument if Nintendo were losing anything, and by simple logic, they aren't nor can they. So I'm not feeling particularly supportive of this decision, copyright law or not.
So you can't accuse me of "moving the goalposts", I'm simply replying to THEIR statements while THEY move the goalposts. Yet their sentiments are reiterated as universal "fact" whereas my own claims from experience are obviously "lies", with absolutely no logical basis behind either of those assertions.
No, you're definitely Moving the Goalposts with your judgmental attitude towards what qualifies as "real work".
If your opponents are guilty of working with equally arbitrary arguments, that's their problem and yes, their logic is faulty. But just because their logic is faulty doesn't magically mean YOURS isn't.
This isn't a sport where one foul overrides another.
A fallacy is a fallacy, no matter how it's wielded.
Which is my point: There is no legal precedent, and until legal precedent exists that contradicts the claims of Fair Use on an LP, it's reasonable to presume (given the way the law is worded) that an LP would generally not fall within its confines.
If it isn't definitively against the law, it's an assumed liberty until precedence is established.
However, in practical terms, Youtube is more inclined to support the Big Rich Media with deep pockets and lawyers than the regular schmos, law or no law.
The sad truth in practice is that outside of criminal court, a law is nearly meaningless unless you can afford to take it to court.
This is likely the same reason that Rifftrax does not tend to sell the movie along with the audio, because they realize that Fair Use would be a hard sell in that case and they lack distribution rights. And Rifftrax is perhaps the best model of comparison given that they are producing a relatively similar product (or at least it's certainly better than the stupid car analogy another person used on me earlier).
The problem with the Rifftrax analogy is that it doesn't completely encompass the same appeal as Lets Plays and their utility.
Hear me out.
Films and music are passive experiences. You can play a song or a movie and it will run its course (even without an audience). Games don't work that way. Plugging in a copy of Super Mario Galaxy and then sitting there will result in an extremely limited venue of entertainment or "experience", as the buzzword goes.
This is why I have problems with the argument that if a person watches someone else play the game, it's a given that they receive the same experience by proxy as if it were film or music.
But that isn't a guarantee. Player input varies, and if it's GAME, player input should matter.
There's a world of difference between watching this:
And actually doing it yourself.
You can claim that this guy's commentary is useless or cheap in the grand scheme of things, but it's damn informative and most importantly, entertaining.
That is value that neither the game nor Capcom provides, and that's the part I am not opposed to defending.
Given recent moderation action in this thread, I would say that I've been far closer to following forum rules than those who have been attacking me. But you're welcome to read that however you like, as it certainly doesn't bother me.
The fact that some people fund their entire livelihoods on LPs is honestly a bit disgusting when you think about it. Every other form of entertainment you enjoy involves a hell of a lot more work than an LP. Movies require not only monetary investment, but actors, scenes, etc, and everyone works on it for months.
1) You are GRAMMATICALLY, MECHANICALLY speaking FOR the audience here; it cannot be your opinion because it includes EVERYONE.
Either this is poor phrasing on your part, or empty pretense. What it certainly ISN'T is a "Clear stance of opinion".
2) That line is phrased in the Imperative Stance; you are TELLING us what to think, not what YOU think.
Don't equate the two. Especially in text, as there is a WORLD of difference between them.
If you're declaring an opinion in text, state it as an opinion. Use personal qualifiers, and where possible to avoid pissing people off, passive tone. You look and act more mature and sensible when you do that.
When you phrase something in an Imperative or Expository stance, it's assumed you're speaking from a position of authority, aka, "fact". You're saying what IS, and not just what you think it is.
The only part of my original argument that I asserted as "fact" was that Nintendo is legally justified in this (and they are). Other people then jumped on me with ad hominem and other ridiculous assertions that I then dismissed by pointing out my own actual experience in the field, and the fact that other LPers have stood up to defend Nintendo's point of view.
If you disagree with me and with them, that's fine, but acting like I'm somehow "factually" inaccurate when there is no such evidence ANYWHERE in the thread that I am....that's intellectually dishonest, at best.
I respect that the legal advantage is with Nintendo, but I do not agree with it, nor the way you're presenting it here.
Take up your grievances with them. Moving on.
You don't refuse to follow a law just because you don't agree with it, even if it's arguably not a fair law. You protest within the confines of law and try to get it changed fairly. When you outright refuse to follow the law and then complain when consequences are slapped down onto you from On High, sorry, but you garter no sympathy from me. I've had YT ask me to remove videos due to potential copyright problems and have complied every time I was asked, without complaint.
Fine, but I don't want your sympathy, just more tact and less preachy nonsense.
Nintendo already pays people to do LPs for them. Those partners were unaffected by this.
If people want to be paid to LP for Nintendo, they need only try to obtain a legal partnership through Nintendo itself, or a related gaming group that has a long-standing agreement with Nintendo. There are already a number of major LPers who have done precisely that. The ones who are complaining are those who have not attempted to build those partnerships for whatever reason, and I can't say I feel all that much sympathy for their plight if they're not trying to take the legal steps necessary to protect themselves from prosecution.
Honestly, this is one place where I disagree with "sanctioning" on principle.
Forgive the "hipster-ness" of what follows; this is just my opinion on this (all of the below, just so we're clear).
Read it if you want.
I think it's sickening that we're moving into a world where something as harmless as a Lets Play is being challenged for control just so they can be corralled into another "Officially Sanctioned Environment".
It'll be just like how the Game Reviews business became so bias and corrupt that it's untrustworthy to the point of practical uselessness.
Collusion starts by getting too close to the source, and I believe that the increasingly aggressive and unstable environment is attributed to the increasingly polarizing culture in gaming.
I believe gaming and media in general needs a wider neutral ground both in a creative sense and in a social sense.
I do not believe in absolute freedom of information, but I do want some sensible limits to be drawn, especially for those AFTER the post-purchase mark because some of these schemes are getting out of hand. If that means challenging and re-writing copyright laws, so be it.
To put it bluntly, I don't want to see gaming end up with some group like the RIAA at the helm (which is what happened to music). Yet greedy power grabs like these are leading us there, and there's too much of that crap in the world already.
Let the market breathe a little and create some culture on its own. If they can get paid while doing so at no cost to you, well, that's economic symbiosis and it's a GREAT thing.
It's both. Just because other companies do it, doesn't make it fair. If this was just Nintendo taking a cut of the profits (not too unreasonable), sure there'd be some bitching but it wouldn't worth raising Anarchy! flags and storming the castle. Instead, Nintendo is taking all the profits and targeting anyone who even has a few seconds of Mario footage, a more flagrant disregard for common decency and restraint not seen since MPAA and RIAA decided to go batshit.
So, opening your mouth and pissing people off is completely different from opening your mouth and pissing people off in an UNAUTHORIZED manner???
That's the biggest reach I've seen in a while. Sorry, not buying it.
Orth opened mouth, made people angry, Microsoft did damage control and apologized for his actions even after disowning him from the company. That's a full on admission and attempted diffusing of bad press right there.
So lets just stop trying to hide behind technicalities and admit the bleeding obvious.
Have you ever heard the phrase "Don't shoot the messenger"? If Orth was told or given a statement to walk online and tell people he wouldn't have been fired if the message pissed people off or not.
Do you think MS is going to fire their staff that released the microsoft press releases about the new xbox not playing used games or giving interviews about it not playing used games cause it pisses people off? NO cause they are TOLD to spread that message.
You'll personally get fired the same way if you have say a public facebook account and start talking about how much you hate the company or how dumb your customers are because like it or not, you represent the company you work for and acting like a jerk or promoting insubordination.
Oh great. Nintendo is now fully 'MURICA!nized. Congratulations you f*cks on alienating the people who buy your products. I guess you don't like money after all.
*snip*
You'll personally get fired the same way if you have say a public facebook account and start talking about how much you hate the company or how dumb your customers are because like it or not, you represent the company you work for and acting like a jerk or promoting insubordination.
Right. And acting like a jerk to your customers is..*gasp!* bad press!
Nevermind that the whole situation with Orth started as a result of a PERSONAL message between him and his long-time friends on Twitter. There was no way he was speaking on behalf of Microsoft when he started (he even made his Twitter private as damage control; too late).
Of course, that didn't stop him from lashing back or Microsoft from sacking him.
My points stands: Bad press sunk his career. End of story.
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