No, it isn't OK.

[Seneschal]

I haven't read much of this thread but...

I don't like muslims/middle-easterns (you know what I mean). All they've done in the places I've lived is rape, stab and generally executing blind violence and other crimes. A friend of mine got beaten up and tried raped not long ago.

First time I got into a fight? I got assaulted by some muslims because I apparently deserved it for walking where they could see me. I was 13 at the time, and there was a lot, lot less immigrants here then. Now it's a lot more, and things like this happen more often too.


So no, sorry, I can't really say that I'm a loving beam of acceptance, because that will get me killed and my girlfriend raped.

Gays, blacks, asians etc? Can't say I've ever had a problem with any of them.

So, are they violent because they worship Allah and go to a mosque or because they're a poor ethnic minority whose youth turned to crime when faced with immigration, xenophobia and lack of jobs?

It's the same with the Roma where I come from. I avoid them and distrust them. Still, I know exactly where they come from, what mindset they have and what hardships they face. It's a two-way street, and justified dislike of a minority is common. What's important is understanding and perspective.

I do not agree with some posters here that say "words will never hurt me". That words have no weight is a few centuries-old notion, and thick skin is the trait of an individual, not an entire society. Advances in sociolinguistics, neurobiology and memetic theory have showed that ideas propagate at a much less conscious rate, so "hate speech" and any such verbal cruelty should very much be a punishable offense.

Of course there must be a reason, but here (in Norway) they are given housing, money, given jobs, free education. Why aren't the blacks and asians acting out then, since they are in the same situation?
To be honest I don't think too highly of Islam as a religion and their extremist ways, but that's an entirely other topic.

I can understand the whole xenophobia thing though. It's a shame, really, because the xenophobia just adds to further xenophobia if xenophobia is what is causing their behaviour.

Yeah, I get it. But that's the thing with culturally dissonant and distant minorities integrated into another society, particularly a wealthy, advanced one when they come from a poverty-ridden hellhole. You know Europe is overflowing with immigrants as it is, Maroccans and Albanians in Italy, Algerians in France, the Roma (everywhere)...

The solution is, in fact, quite un-American - forced assimilation by restricting cultural expression. Because the immigrants come (a lot of them illegaly), live together, do not mingle with the populace, recieve and project fear and xenophobia, their culture and religion reinforces it, and they end up as a tumorous growth on an otherwise top-world-standard-of-living-and-human-development-index society like yours. They did give up their cultural norms to live by another country's laws. I'm pretty sure this will happen with Eastern-Europeans like me when we get accepted into the EU, we'll get to work and live in other countries much easily, but not if we bring random backwards notions and violence. I'm fine with that. Cutural diversity is a fantastic thing and should be preserved, but the same isn't true of stagnant and backwards traditions. We're not moving towards a homogenized society simply because we demand the eradication of harmful, outdated and bigoted traditions. And yes, religion is a neat channel for those, so it's not just coincidental that middle-eastern problem-minorities are also Muslim.

Still, it's a problem to sympathise with and understand, not one to judge. One's reason to immigrate isn't so he could make another home like his previous one (from which he fled because it was a shithole); one immigrates into another country to work, to immerse himself into another culture in hopes of making a better living. So why not make that part of the process? We have a large Albanian minority where I live, and they do have their gathering spots, community groups and traditions, but they're been thoroughly constructive and nonviolent for a long while, and pretty much all prejudiced notions about them have died off without them losing cultural distinctiveness.

EDIT: Oh, another thing - I've noticed that the children of persecuted minorities end up just being worse than their parents. On the other hand, I've known A LOT of people whose parents are well-integrated ethnic minorities, and most of the time they get a bit of foreign cultural background, but end up growing out of it by their late teens, and join this whole "progressive outspoken ambigously-Westernized globally-connected non-denominational digital native with no distinct nationality"-generation. I dearly hope this social movement will be leading the world in 20 years or so.

 

[superbatranger]

It's not my place to judge others simply because they judged me.

LOL I'd like to point out that your more Christian than people who call themselves that.

*Sigh* if only there were more people like that.

How do you figure? I'm not a religious person at all, that's just how I feel.

One of the teachings of Christianity is to love your neighbor. I'd imagine you're the kind of person that would embrace that form of thought and love your neighbors regardless of their race, religion or lack thereof, sexuality, age, political beliefs, etc. Sadly, there are Christians that are not very Christian at all. They say they love their neighbor, but only if their neighbor is white, heterosexual, Republican, conservative, and Baptist, for example.

 

[Gothtasical]

jeez anyway you can't expect someone to change who they are for there benefit and they arn't just wrong their morally wrong. but where still going to have it no matter what anyone does

 

[monkey_man]

Meh. 50-90% of the worlds population are idiots and/or bigots.(this is from an idiotic and bigotted viewpoint. the other 10% is cake and/or pie)
And my personal opinion about people hating black people? they are jealous I say.

Well, actually, we are born racist.

Nope. We're born to prefer similarity, but that doesn't make us racist.

That's like saying we're all born sprinters.

hah fat chance [looks at selfs and sigh]

 

[Hatchet90]

-snip-

-snip-

So you both discriminate bigots? Yay! hypocracy abound!

To put it bluntly: you are worng in saying that racists/sexists/homophobic aren't entitled to their opinion and that it is wrong. I'm sure you hate a lot of things people would consider stupid, archaic or just plain wrong as well. Stop trying to be some shining exemplar of paragon ideals because the most paragon ideal is to let people be who they choose to be. If that means they hate black, female lesbians, then that's their decision and I support their conviction 100% if they truly believe in that, so long as it's just words and not actions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of what you think their opinion should be or if it's right or wrong.

There's a famous quote by Mr. Winston Churchill that really hits home in this sort of topic: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Regardless of which side of the coin you look at, be it the bigots/sexists/homophobes or the racially different/opposite gender/homosexuals, they both have stood up for their beliefs and they have every right to do so and be correct in doing so. Regardless of what you want to believe, they are all right in what they say, think and feel and for you to say that's wrong is beyond the evil you claim to be trying to stamp out. You are the evil, my good sir/madame for trying to silence those around you by claiming their beliefs are incorrect.

Good post. I really hate this thread, and I don't know why.

 

[ShakyFiend]

So, I'm pretty new here, hello everyone, I'm sure you've seen me around. Anyway, I was checking out OTD forum last night, and some guy said something like I don't like black people, am I right? I don't like ____________ group, I don't recall who it was. And he said that was a legitimate opinion to have, and that it's just a preference. Others agreed with him. And I've noticed people making excuses for this type of behavior.

Well, no. It isn't OK to racist, homophobic, sexist etc. It isn't OK to dislike black people for their race, it isn't OK to be against homosexuality, and it isn't OK to think women are lesser beings than men, think all other religious options are beneath your chosen belief, and we can go on from there. It is NOT OK. Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. That doesn't make them right, they're still wrong, but it's that persons' choice to be wrong. And remember, people don't choose to be black/gay/women etc. A lot of people don't really "choose" their religious beliefs either, they are indoctrinated into them. However, bigoted beliefs against these groups is most certainly a choice.

I get tired when people make defense of such actions. People especially do it when it comes to sexuality/gender related things. Like somehow religion/"ick" factor/society/whatever bullshit they can think of makes is reasonable to be a bigot against these things. Well, someone needs to say it loud and clear. It isn't. And thinking it's acceptable and giving it a pass makes you part of the problem, because these attitudes are what causes the actions against legal citizens. There is a reason why individuals such as this are viewed negatively. It's because they are negative people, and should be seen as such.

What do you all think? Am I right or wrong? Discuss.

You seem like the sort of person who believes in free speech, if so you cannot claim it is wrong for these people to hold these beliefs, it is objectionable and (as far as we are concerned) morally wrong, but these people are entitled to their beliefs, so therefore, unfortunately, it is 'ok'

 

[viranimus]

Incoming WoT syndrome

Spoiler

Well the other thread the OP references I know I gave up posting in it because honestly there were too many kids playing with matches in a room filled with diesel. I sensed it coming.

Now the problem I had with that thread is by the time I made my first post, all the responses were slanted one way. (I typically always side with devils advocate regardless of the situation, just to bring up opposing viewpoint)

But what got me was the people who were bashing the OP of that thread simply based on how the interpreted incorrectly what the OP said. If you have patience and read the OP of that threads post properly you see exactly what he was saying, and what he was saying had little to do with perpetuating hate, which is what the initial replies degraded into. The whole point of the OP was that you cant express any sort of unpopular notion without being subjected to ridicule, especially over something like opinion.

Also, this thread is a bit off, because the basis of it is NOT the same idea of the thread it was citing. The referenced thread was illustrating the point of how people tend to pander toward a softer side, and justify what they think is right. And in essence how people will justify things just so they dont feel like their being offensive. Whereas this thread is citing that thread and painting it in a light that the original thread OP never even remotely portrayed it as.

This OP goes off ranting on how wrong having opposing viewpoints to his own, are.

Now as it relates to this thread... Ok OP, heres the thing, Life is absolute only in its subjectiveness. What you damn as evil, or anything that is condemned as such, Is done so because of nothing but human conditioning. You are taught by society that such things are categorically wrong, so you clearly believe them with vehement passion.

Now, if you lived in a culture where bigotry, racism and all the other things that go along with it are accepted, and encouraged, and having an intolerant view to that would result in being outcast, you wouldnt be so quick to condemn those things. What if you lived in a culture where for 2000+ years your people held a tradition that the recently deceased would be consumed by the family. Would you still cry foul that your family expects you to eat honey glazed grandpa?

Like it or not, there is no divine right or wrong, its just perspectives that we as a collective have mutually agreed upon. So given that is the only real truth, there is absolutely no way you can speak in absolutes, no matter how adamantly you feel about it.

OT:

and there is nothing wrong with not being a straight white male.

Im sorry, but in this day and age, there is. Straight white males are considered the root of all evil, and are blamed for everything in this world. Were living in a time where being a straight white male IS a bad thing. I cant help but to think that the reason this is, is more to the effect that whites have not kept up the same ratio of reproduction compared to other races that are quickly approaching on Majority status, more than it is that white people were guilty of such atrocities against so many people.

Now ive expressed my thoughts on this thread. I wont reply to misinterpretations of what I said in thread because its things like that that start flames and end with locked threads and banhammers. I really dont think another thread needs to come to that when it all boils down to people on opposite sides who refuse to accept anyone with a different opinion other than their own could ever be right.

 

[Smagmuck_]

So, you're saying we have to like them? Then good day sir...

 

[Dyp100]

...What? I just read your post and it totally contracted itself.

To be fair, I'm not up to snuff at this time in the day but none of is made sense together.

 

[The Long Road]

Obviously it isn't okay to believe anything except what you believe. Clearly anybody who holds differing opinions needs to be burned at the stake.

EDIT: btw, successful troll is successful

 

[kir4]

-Super Duper Samurai SNIP-

What gives you the right to express your feelings about the bigots/homophobes/whathaveyou? They have the same right to express their feelings, thoughts and beliefs as you. As I said, this thread is full of hypocrisy. "Oppress the oppressors!" Surely that's the right way to go about doing anything.

I have yet to see facts that support how their opinion is wrong. Actually, I haven't seen anyone provide a definitive definition of the word wrong.

Actually I did give one. Majority of society agreeing its wrong = wrong. If you don't like that then you are not welcome to society. Its not oppressing the oppressors. Im not saying for someone to stop feeling a certain way. I'm saying just keep it to yourself. Hell, even express it just don't oppress it. You hate whites? Fine whatever, you are not part of our society. You speak and act genocide on a race? Well now you need to be stopped.

The problem is, ignorant people take it too far. They mistake freedom of speech for freedom to act. Do I like samurais? No. Do I go out and fuck with people who do? No. Do I need to broadcast under my name: Kir4 "hates samurais". No. If you can understand the example I'm giving then this will probably be the final post on this argument between you and the rest of the board.

EDIT: but in reality South Park did it best. Its called tolerance, not acceptance. You just have to tolerate others. Not accept them. But toleration is the act of allowing something to exist. Yes, I know this goes both ways. But when the bigotry stops. Those against people acting on hate do too.

 

[Scout Tactical]

I'm not going to really elaborate on this, since by the 6th page, no one really keeps reading, but I'll make a brief note:

We essentially all do this constantly. Ever had patriotism or national pride? You're placing yourself above people from other nations, who were born there and in many cases can't help that they're in that country due to economic or dictatorial situations. Have you ever considered that your government might act with your interest before the interests of the people in another country? They're doing the same thing!

 

[MrAkuma201]

Well you cant control people and if they don't like someone or something thats who they are. if they want too be racist, homophobic, sexist FTs let them.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm sorry that wasn't clear. I mean to say that of people who hold absolute standards of virtue, some derive those standards from religion and others do not. Some people hold absolute standards which do not stem from any religion at all. I do not mean to imply that religion inherently imposes an absolute standard. I realize that many people, religious or not, see morality as something more ambiguous and flexible.

If a person says a thing is always wrong, for some that belief stems from a religious teaching and for others it comes from humanism or intuition or some other source entirely. I am interested in where those standards come from.

Ah. My bad.

Well if the gays/lesbians can claim it's in there genes (which it is) then I'm sure someone is bound to make a valid argument that being racist is in the genes.

But, I believe the way you are raised and taught by your parents, your "core" beliefs is what helps define you and helps mold you into the man/woman/carebear you are today.

Two problems here:

One, the assertion that sexuality is in someone's genes. It's a partial truth, since fetal development can lead to homosexuality in the same way it leads to transsexuality. To my knowledge, there is no "trans" gene, merely an alteration of the brain due to chemical signals. I know it may seem trivial, but oversimplification is a problem with both sides of the equation and needs to be curbed. Especially since it's used to poke holes in the "gays are born that way" argument.

Two, What they argue is rather immaterial. People can argue a flat Earth, a geocentric universe, or that gays all choose to be that way, but it doesn't mean there's any evidence to back it up. A genetic predilection for hate is one of those things. I'm sure some people will argue that they can't help it because they were born racists. It's still dumb.

To further the point about environmental impact, I'd be a Catholic bigot if I grew up according to the "core" beliefs I was taught.

hah fat chance [looks at selfs and sigh]

BAH! You were born with muscles, weren't you! Totally the same thing!

 

[Labyrinth]

What if you're indoctrinated into bigoted beliefs?

I was having a discussion with a close friend about sexuality, feminism and what he associates with genders. He mentioned at one point that he thought of strength as something associated with masculinity. My question was if he then disassociated it with femininity. He did, he'd simply never looked at it that way before.

Now that he's aware of that, if you will, prejudice, he is actively aware that it's wrong. In a similar way, he's been brought up to be somewhat racist against people of Asian backgrounds, and seeks to change his gut instinct while acknowledging that this is something wrong.

I would say that the first part of this requires the realisation that one holds such an ingrained assumption. I hesitate to call them 'beliefs'. The second is a personal acknowledgement of that being an incorrect way of observing the world, and the third, a concerted mental effort to counteract the effects this prejudice has on how one interacts with other people and views society.

 

[-Samurai-]

-Super Duper Samurai SNIP-

snip

[small][More snipping to leave the entire reason I posted in this thread][/small]
Im not saying for someone to stop feeling a certain way. I'm saying just keep it to yourself.

This quote is exactly the reason I posted in this thread. You feel a certain way about the people that have beliefs you don't share, and you expressed your beliefs here. Then you say that because theirs are different and "wrong", they don't have the right to say how they feel. They have every right that you do. If they want to stand on a corner and scream "I hate gay Jewish black men!!" all day, the can. It's up to the gay Jewish black men to ignore him and move on.

Taking action against him is the thing that's wrong. He has the right to express how he feels as long as it doesn't physically harm anyone. You have the right to ignore him and get on with your life.

As far as saying they don't belong in society; They were likely made that way by society. Society isn't perfect, and it never ever will be. Bigots and criminals are a part of society just as much as the hard working, law abiding citizens.

Honestly, though it doesn't really matter. I'm not expecting you to just say "Hey, you're right!", and leave it at that. So, lets just let this one go. You can respond if you need to, or if you feel like you have to get in the last word. That's fine. I just won't be wasting my time with this one anymore.
[small]I really need to just stick to the non-serious topics here.[/small]

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

Incoming WoT syndrome

Spoiler

Well the other thread the OP references I know I gave up posting in it because honestly there were too many kids playing with matches in a room filled with diesel. I sensed it coming.

Now the problem I had with that thread is by the time I made my first post, all the responses were slanted one way. (I typically always side with devils advocate regardless of the situation, just to bring up opposing viewpoint)

But what got me was the people who were bashing the OP of that thread simply based on how the interpreted incorrectly what the OP said. If you have patience and read the OP of that threads post properly you see exactly what he was saying, and what he was saying had little to do with perpetuating hate, which is what the initial replies degraded into. The whole point of the OP was that you cant express any sort of unpopular notion without being subjected to ridicule, especially over something like opinion.

Also, this thread is a bit off, because the basis of it is NOT the same idea of the thread it was citing. The referenced thread was illustrating the point of how people tend to pander toward a softer side, and justify what they think is right. And in essence how people will justify things just so they dont feel like their being offensive. Whereas this thread is citing that thread and painting it in a light that the original thread OP never even remotely portrayed it as.

This OP goes off ranting on how wrong having opposing viewpoints to his own, are.

Now as it relates to this thread... Ok OP, heres the thing, Life is absolute only in its subjectiveness. What you damn as evil, or anything that is condemned as such, Is done so because of nothing but human conditioning. You are taught by society that such things are categorically wrong, so you clearly believe them with vehement passion.

Now, if you lived in a culture where bigotry, racism and all the other things that go along with it are accepted, and encouraged, and having an intolerant view to that would result in being outcast, you wouldnt be so quick to condemn those things. What if you lived in a culture where for 2000+ years your people held a tradition that the recently deceased would be consumed by the family. Would you still cry foul that your family expects you to eat honey glazed grandpa?

Like it or not, there is no divine right or wrong, its just perspectives that we as a collective have mutually agreed upon. So given that is the only real truth, there is absolutely no way you can speak in absolutes, no matter how adamantly you feel about it.

OT:

and there is nothing wrong with not being a straight white male.

Im sorry, but in this day and age, there is. Straight white males are considered the root of all evil, and are blamed for everything in this world. Were living in a time where being a straight white male IS a bad thing. I cant help but to think that the reason this is, is more to the effect that whites have not kept up the same ratio of reproduction compared to other races that are quickly approaching on Majority status, more than it is that white people were guilty of such atrocities against so many people.

Now ive expressed my thoughts on this thread. I wont reply to misinterpretations of what I said in thread because its things like that that start flames and end with locked threads and banhammers. I really dont think another thread needs to come to that when it all boils down to people on opposite sides who refuse to accept anyone with a different opinion other than their own could ever be right.

So because straight white males sometimes face unfair hate, it's bad not to be a straight white male? Logic fail; not everyone is your enemy, buddy. I'm just saying that being part of a marginalized group is okay, not that being part of the "normal" group is bad. I won't even begin on your race politics, though.

 

[xdom125x]

People don't choose to be gay/black/women. People do choose homophobia. You are entitled to choose to be homophobic, but expect rational minded people to call you out on it for exactly what it is.

I have always found this interesting. How is what a person likes (i.e. a gay person liking the same gender) not chosen, yet what somebody hates (supposedly) is.