No Metropolis/Gotham Crossover in The Dark Knight Rises and Superman
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
He's making the right desician. A big part of why is that the version of "Bat Man" he's using is too grounded in pseudo-reality to work for such a crossover. Generally speaking it's the high-camp aspect of Batman that allows him to deal with and play the game alongside other heroes. Nolan's Batman is using things like military prototype weapons that are supposed to be like one generation ahead of current tech, combined with his training. The comic book Batman uses technology that would fit in with Star Trek or Star Wars when the need arises. The higher the level of the opponents, the more crazy Batman gets with the gadgeteering. As I point out a lot of the time, he's not some ordinary guy holding his own with these "post human gods", his capabilities are just as amazing as theirs are. On a fundemental level him being involved there is no more unreal than Lex Luthor being Superman's Arch enemy all these years, Lex is also an "ordinary guy" though his science is hardly ordinary. I've heard some people argue, especially during the old "Tower Of Babel" storyline that Batman is arguably just Lex Luthor with a couple of black belts, at least in the comics. 
To do the crossover you'd first need to establish Batman more into the domain of pure cheez as far as the science goes. This would include rebooting the entire franchise to have Batman not just be a kung-fu master with stealth skills, but also to be a penultimate scientist. In the comics Batman does not use people to develop tech for him because he has to, but because it's useful. Batman is crazy powerful because while "ordinary" he's pretty much defined as being the pinnacle of human achievement in everything, except for maybe science where he exceeds that. He analyzes enemies himself, and sits down and kit bashes super weapons as appropriate. "Tower Of Babel" had him personally developing weapons to disable his Justice League teammates if the need ever arose (since he'd only have a chance if he was ready ahead of time), the plot revolving around these prototypes which he never told them about (since they needed to be a surprise weapon) being stolen by Ra's Al Ghul, when Talia got into the Bat Cave via the Teleporter in the Justice League watchtower. This included things like a bullet that vibrated so fast that if "The Flash" tried to vibrate through it it would reverse his own vibrations and trap him (gogo Lex Luthor).
You'll notice that in DCUO Batman is using powered armor in the intro movie, and this was also the case in Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Returns", when he actually fought Superman. I believe it was also briefly mentioned that in that version "The Batmobile" had been augemented with Alien tech.
Also for those who have only heard about it (and a complete side point) Batman also did not win the fight with Superman in "The Dark Knight Returns". The powerful thing about that story is that Superman appears to lose, but you find out later that he threw the fight. When Batman apparently KOed Superman and collapsed from Cardiac Arrest (using a drug to feign death), Superman points out to Robin at his funeral that he was actually conscious and could hear that Batman's heart hadn't fully stopped and pretty much let him go. People tend to forget that entire scene which is what makes the entire story, and is also why "the Dark Knight Strikes Back" is viewed as so much garbage.
As far as movie plots go, I am hard pressed to think of a storyline where Superman would need the movie version of Batman for assistance. In the comics it works because despite what some people "argue" they are actually on very similar power levels overall, just in differant ways (again, think Lex Luthor who has been winning rounds against Superman pretty much forever, even beating him at times, but inevitably having to let him go). That's not true in the comics, honestly Superman would be better to get Lucious Fox to help him in the movies than Batman, but even so the tech isn't really all that high a level. If your doing Superman as per the comics, where Superman is ALSO a scientific genius, and master of Kryptonian Technology (the guy has been building robots since he was Superboy) it's even more of a joke. Batman in the comics can make better toys than Superman at his best, but Batman in the movies is unlikely to have anything even remotely close to what you'd find in "The Fortress Of Solitude" and what Superman learned there.
To do the crossover you'd first need to establish Batman more into the domain of pure cheez as far as the science goes. This would include rebooting the entire franchise to have Batman not just be a kung-fu master with stealth skills, but also to be a penultimate scientist. In the comics Batman does not use people to develop tech for him because he has to, but because it's useful. Batman is crazy powerful because while "ordinary" he's pretty much defined as being the pinnacle of human achievement in everything, except for maybe science where he exceeds that. He analyzes enemies himself, and sits down and kit bashes super weapons as appropriate. "Tower Of Babel" had him personally developing weapons to disable his Justice League teammates if the need ever arose (since he'd only have a chance if he was ready ahead of time), the plot revolving around these prototypes which he never told them about (since they needed to be a surprise weapon) being stolen by Ra's Al Ghul, when Talia got into the Bat Cave via the Teleporter in the Justice League watchtower. This included things like a bullet that vibrated so fast that if "The Flash" tried to vibrate through it it would reverse his own vibrations and trap him (gogo Lex Luthor).
You'll notice that in DCUO Batman is using powered armor in the intro movie, and this was also the case in Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Returns", when he actually fought Superman. I believe it was also briefly mentioned that in that version "The Batmobile" had been augemented with Alien tech.
Also for those who have only heard about it (and a complete side point) Batman also did not win the fight with Superman in "The Dark Knight Returns". The powerful thing about that story is that Superman appears to lose, but you find out later that he threw the fight. When Batman apparently KOed Superman and collapsed from Cardiac Arrest (using a drug to feign death), Superman points out to Robin at his funeral that he was actually conscious and could hear that Batman's heart hadn't fully stopped and pretty much let him go. People tend to forget that entire scene which is what makes the entire story, and is also why "the Dark Knight Strikes Back" is viewed as so much garbage.
As far as movie plots go, I am hard pressed to think of a storyline where Superman would need the movie version of Batman for assistance. In the comics it works because despite what some people "argue" they are actually on very similar power levels overall, just in differant ways (again, think Lex Luthor who has been winning rounds against Superman pretty much forever, even beating him at times, but inevitably having to let him go). That's not true in the comics, honestly Superman would be better to get Lucious Fox to help him in the movies than Batman, but even so the tech isn't really all that high a level. If your doing Superman as per the comics, where Superman is ALSO a scientific genius, and master of Kryptonian Technology (the guy has been building robots since he was Superboy) it's even more of a joke. Batman in the comics can make better toys than Superman at his best, but Batman in the movies is unlikely to have anything even remotely close to what you'd find in "The Fortress Of Solitude" and what Superman learned there.
This is probably for the best. Green Lantern is looking lackluster compared to Thor, so perhaps its for the best that the Justice League is not ruined by a piss poor effort on the part of DC's movie making colleagues.
And Superman is not boring.
And Superman is not boring.
In the comics, Batman is elevated almost to superhero status just to balance out Superman. You know, world's greatest martial artist, criminologist, plans perfectly for any given situation (this last one all but is a superpower). Nolan's Batman is far from that level - he's human, with human weaknesses. He has cool toys and the will/ability to use them, but he's also conflicted about his duty, makes mistakes, etc etc. Confronted with Superman, he would be unimaginably outclassed.
A crossover could work, but it would mean greatly compromising one of the characters - remove Bale's human flaws, or introduce them to Superman. It could be interesting if done that way, but on the whole I'm glad they've ruled it out. Batman works fine on his own.
A crossover could work, but it would mean greatly compromising one of the characters - remove Bale's human flaws, or introduce them to Superman. It could be interesting if done that way, but on the whole I'm glad they've ruled it out. Batman works fine on his own.
Well heres the thing tho, all they really had to do was have a passing mention of each other and the comic nerds will all cream their pants. It doesn't even have to be more than say a newspaper headline mentioning each others existence or perhaps just saying the name of the city. Not to mention this leaves room for a crossover down the line. And much hype to be created from speculation from comic nerds!
I mean Aliens vs Predators would of never existed if it wasnt for this scene in predator 2.
Its literally just a passing glance that the universes are shared
Cameos are not needed!
For anyone who says that nolan's batman is too serious for Superman, i present to you Nolans Batman is STILL BATMAN. how serious can you get when its about the Cape Crusader?! Yall ppl are crazy, Batman is still a comic book superhero. You can suspend your disbelief for a growly voiced Batman to exist but not for a superpowered alien? really?
Oh one more thing, i do appreciate that they will spend all their effort on their own respective story. But all im saying that as an after thought is all that is needed to generate a crazy mount of buzz for the properties. Warner Brothers can't possibly disagree with that.
I mean Aliens vs Predators would of never existed if it wasnt for this scene in predator 2.
Its literally just a passing glance that the universes are shared
Cameos are not needed!
For anyone who says that nolan's batman is too serious for Superman, i present to you Nolans Batman is STILL BATMAN. how serious can you get when its about the Cape Crusader?! Yall ppl are crazy, Batman is still a comic book superhero. You can suspend your disbelief for a growly voiced Batman to exist but not for a superpowered alien? really?
Oh one more thing, i do appreciate that they will spend all their effort on their own respective story. But all im saying that as an after thought is all that is needed to generate a crazy mount of buzz for the properties. Warner Brothers can't possibly disagree with that.
Sensible but inevitable. Fortunately the guys at Warner have realised that the sum would not equal the parts with Bats and Supes. Nolan wouldn't have wanted to do it (I'd imagine) as Superman is heavily antithetical to the style of his films in general.
Only a slight nudge in the cartoony side would see Batman work in a wider DC universe but he must always play straight man to a wacky world, and super powers are probably a little too wacky for the tone of the films.
In defence of Superman, its not so much that he's boring, just that he's only ever made into boring films. The lonely moral high ground, Doomsday, Lex Luthor as president, there's all kinds of things that would make a good film but it would have to be quite unusual - and therefore its unlikely to get green lighted. Superman is not invincible, film adaptations of him just haven't featured any of his major stable of harder hitting threats. That and Lex Luthor is always basically a comedy character in the films doesn't make it any easier. Personally I think he's the most useful as a background character/antagonist in other DC stuff - the ultimate power, that when corrupted, is ultimately threatening.
A Superman/Batman crossover that could work could be The Dark Knight Returns (they wouldn't even have to break with the series naming conventions). Set well after Batman's prime and Superman's submission to a right wing president, the story is an epic with the Superman's superpowers shown as truly otherworldly but slowly corroded throughout the story. Frank Miller has more or less jumped off the deep end recently but TDKR is a classic that's nearly film ready.
Only a slight nudge in the cartoony side would see Batman work in a wider DC universe but he must always play straight man to a wacky world, and super powers are probably a little too wacky for the tone of the films.
In defence of Superman, its not so much that he's boring, just that he's only ever made into boring films. The lonely moral high ground, Doomsday, Lex Luthor as president, there's all kinds of things that would make a good film but it would have to be quite unusual - and therefore its unlikely to get green lighted. Superman is not invincible, film adaptations of him just haven't featured any of his major stable of harder hitting threats. That and Lex Luthor is always basically a comedy character in the films doesn't make it any easier. Personally I think he's the most useful as a background character/antagonist in other DC stuff - the ultimate power, that when corrupted, is ultimately threatening.
A Superman/Batman crossover that could work could be The Dark Knight Returns (they wouldn't even have to break with the series naming conventions). Set well after Batman's prime and Superman's submission to a right wing president, the story is an epic with the Superman's superpowers shown as truly otherworldly but slowly corroded throughout the story. Frank Miller has more or less jumped off the deep end recently but TDKR is a classic that's nearly film ready.
There will eventually be a crossover, once they've squeezed all the money they think they can out of the individual franchises, demand is high. As for Superman, if they toned down his uberness, simply made him very tough (but not 100% invulnerable), it could work. All the best animation and comics featuring him lent him a little mortality.
Also, my favorites were ones where him and Batman were -not- best buddies, but adversarial, at least at first. They didn't like each other, not at all, but eventually came to respect one another.
As far as the Superman franchise, anything, anything, could be better than the abortion Superman Returns was. Horrible, horrible movie.
I think a Nolan take on Superman would be very very interesting. Too bad Superman is already in the works. Simply portray him as an alien from a heavy gravity world, very tough, try to nudge him from fantasy into SciFi . . .
Also, my favorites were ones where him and Batman were -not- best buddies, but adversarial, at least at first. They didn't like each other, not at all, but eventually came to respect one another.
As far as the Superman franchise, anything, anything, could be better than the abortion Superman Returns was. Horrible, horrible movie.
I think a Nolan take on Superman would be very very interesting. Too bad Superman is already in the works. Simply portray him as an alien from a heavy gravity world, very tough, try to nudge him from fantasy into SciFi . . .
I would love to see the first meeting of those two in that movie
Batman: whoa, you're...eh... a big lad. Do much weightlifting fella?
Superman: Not really mate, just buildings and stuff really.
Batman: Buildings?
Superman: yeah, or cars, trucks. Picked up a continent of Kryptonite recently.
Batman: You're gonna hafta explain everything that you just said, starting with what Kryptonite is.
Superman: Kryptonite is the only known substance in the galaxy that can penetrate my rock hard exterior, even the smallest fragment can make me weak and feeble.
Batman: and you picked up a continent of the stuff?
Superman: well....yeah. pretty much. What can you pick up?
Batman: well to be honest buddy i have trouble fighting large dogs. Where did you get all this...stuff you can do?
Superman: born with it. I think I'm an alien.
Batman: you think your a what?
Superman: I think I'm an alien. That's what the ice crystals in the giant ice dome said.
Batman:..... uh.......?
Superman: What's your problem?
Batman: I'm just a bit annoyed that I had to put thousands of hours into training and preparation and your just born with.... well... everything. Ice house to boot.
Superman: what are you implying?
Batman: that your an utter tool!
Superman:
Batman: Dead
Batman: whoa, you're...eh... a big lad. Do much weightlifting fella?
Superman: Not really mate, just buildings and stuff really.
Batman: Buildings?
Superman: yeah, or cars, trucks. Picked up a continent of Kryptonite recently.
Batman: You're gonna hafta explain everything that you just said, starting with what Kryptonite is.
Superman: Kryptonite is the only known substance in the galaxy that can penetrate my rock hard exterior, even the smallest fragment can make me weak and feeble.
Batman: and you picked up a continent of the stuff?
Superman: well....yeah. pretty much. What can you pick up?
Batman: well to be honest buddy i have trouble fighting large dogs. Where did you get all this...stuff you can do?
Superman: born with it. I think I'm an alien.
Batman: you think your a what?
Superman: I think I'm an alien. That's what the ice crystals in the giant ice dome said.
Batman:..... uh.......?
Superman: What's your problem?
Batman: I'm just a bit annoyed that I had to put thousands of hours into training and preparation and your just born with.... well... everything. Ice house to boot.
Superman: what are you implying?
Batman: that your an utter tool!
Superman:
Batman: Dead
Disappointing, but not surprising. Fortunately, DC fans have the animated films and comics where the writers have the imagination to write stories where they can share a universe.
Marvel's crossover ambitions are going to bring their current run of success at the box office to a crashing end at some point over the next two years. All it'll take is one bad movie to taint the rest and given Marvel's track record that's a matter of when, not if.
Nolan's making the right decision. Why risk tying in his hugely successful revival to one that's already failed once?
Nolan's making the right decision. Why risk tying in his hugely successful revival to one that's already failed once?
What is there to cloud? Super man and Batman have the most simplistic settings for any film/comic its so easy to do yet they are incapable of doing it.....
Individually, I agree. Batman's universe is simple. Superman's universe is simple.ZippyDSMlee said:
Making an almost believable story of the two of them together, in a single combined universe is going to be almost impossible.
Who do they fight? Batman's villains are all soft and squishy compared to the man of steel. Most of Superman's enemies are either almost unstoppable, or so obscure that nobody's going to care who they are.
Metallo, Kryptonite Man... really? Those guys are pretty much nobodies. That's the biggest problem with trying to create a combined universe. There's nothing great to take between the two to use them for a movie.
Why dose superman HAVE to fight someone? They had a few good detective style stories in the animated series around Sups, Batman and Louis. It would also be nice to have superman less super IE needs a suit outside earth, can be lightly damaged by high powered weapons, that way super man has a few more less than ant like enemies.vxicepickxv said:
Wait what?Greg Tito said:
Thats the most asinine thing iver heard *facepalm*
Superman stories have always made jokes and asides to Gotham and Batman, It fits perfectly.
*shakes head* What went through DC's mind exactly at that meeting? "I know lets make it so that characters who are supposed to in the same world are seperate! That way we dont have to worry any other heroes stealing the show, and everyone will be confused IF a Justice League movie ever comes up."
"Brilliant!"
*massive facepalm*
They'll jump onto that band wagon after the Avengers movie makes truck load of money. Personally, I'd much rather see a Justice League movie. But Marvel has been emboldened by its string of movie successes while the only thing DC has going for it are the Batman movies. I'm not surprised they are having impotence issues over the massive prospect of a JL movie.Primus1985 said:
I just wonder how in the heck they're gonna come close to the excellence of the second movie since they can't include the Joker now.