No Right Answer: Best Animation Style Ever

[GeorgW]

How the fuck did Dan get 4 points?
The internet has destroyed debating forever.

I've seen Akira and part of Full Metal Alchemist so Anime sucks.
I've played Call of Duty so First Person Shooters suck.
What's the difference between those two arguments?
Why is one of them acceptable?

Neither is acceptable, this is also not a serious debate. It's meant for entertainment purposes and nothing else, how can people not realise this yet?

I didn't really like the debate that much as it's hard to debate something when both parties aren't really knowledgeable about the subject at hand. I also never liked this debate in the first place, it's like arguing hamburgers vs hotdogs. They're both foods (styles of animation), and are usually sold at the same places (have similar overarching themes), but which you prefer is entirely subjective, or a lot of times dependant of what you're in the mood for.
Though, I get the feeling Dan will like Cowboy Bebop.

 

[Asita]

How the fuck did Dan get 4 points?
The internet has destroyed debating forever.

I've seen Akira and part of Full Metal Alchemist so Anime sucks.
I've played Call of Duty so First Person Shooters suck.
What's the difference between those two arguments?
Why is one of them acceptable?

I'd actually take it a step beyond and ask how he got any points in this debate. The first argument for which he was awarded a point was a prime example of faulty generalization which completely ignored the plethora of genres anime as a whole encompasses (everything from Slice of Life to Supernatural Horror, to Psychological Thriller, and from Romantic Comedy to Action-Adventure). In fairness though, Chris did get a point for doing the same with Western Animation and disney princesses, though I would debate the validity of that claim as well.

The second point of "There's no plot because it has to be dubbed" was a pure falsehood and easily disprovable simply by looking at...let's say Monster. Dubbing has very little impact on the plot or the dialogue (at least when the translators/localizers are worth their salt...*glares meaningfully at Zero Wing*).

Third point rather relied on personal cultural prejudice (Read: As he is less familiar with eastern culture than western, he assumes that must be true of everyone else, therefore 'western is more relatable in general') and blatantly ignored the fact that the Hero's Journey Campbell codified was the general pattern that he observed fiction in general, on a global scale. It doesn't belong to western culture.

Final point was pure apples to oranges. Quite literally, he compared what he considered the worst of japanese animation to what many would consider the best of western animation. That is not a fair comparison no matter how you slice it. You do not present a comparison of what you consider a good series of a medium to something you comsider a bad example in another medium and say it exemplifies your point. It would be like if I were to compare Ocarina of Time to Big Rigs Racing and claim that that was proof of racing games inherent inferiority. If you're going to compare things then you HAVE to use a consistent set of criteria. Good vs. Good, Bad vs. Bad, whichever, but you can't compare a Razzie to an Oscar for the sake of making a point about their respective genres.

 

[CK76]

Context.

We see this in so many things, your culture (whatever it may be) is complex and nuanced as you are immersed within in every day. Foreign cultures are often simplified with extreme stories grabbing attention of the strange exploit of the "other".

 

[Roganzar]

A huge point that was overlooked was that anime came about because of Disney cartoons. So western animation, in a sense, created what we know as Anime today.
Probably, would have come about on its own but the fact remains.

That's not really relevant to deciding which style is overall better. For example, Super Mario 64 came out long before Ratchet & Clank, and probably influenced how it was made. Does that automatically mean Super Mario 64 is the better game? No, you'd have to experience both. Their debate ignores the origins of both styles and instead focuses on content and quality.

When comparing a baby's crying or Mozart's Requieum in D minor Dies Irae, you don't say "Oh, well I'll keep in mind that the fact that crying babies have existed since long before Mozart, and probably influenced him as well, when deciding which is better." You instead, say "Gee, this baby is really getting on my nerves. Time to blast Dies Irae all up in this *****."

Let's see they discuss cultural influence at around the 4 minute mark. This is the reason why my statement is valid. I referenced the cultural influence that western animation has on eastern animation. Pointing out this cultural influence doesn't argue the point one way or the other. It is a fact of animation history.
Additionally, you would have been better off pointing out that eastern animation now greatly influences western animation. These things go in cycles.
A comparrison of Super Mario 64 to Ratchet and Clank is far more valid than Baby vs. Mozart, whatever the hell you we're trying to say there, but as far as that arguement goes Ratchet and Clank is a better game. Insomniac took what influenced then from Super Mario 64 and improved on it with solid controls, a humorous story, entertaining characters, improved gameplay mechanics and excellent voice acting. However, the fact remains that Super Mario 64, probably, has had a tremendous influence on the developers that made Ratchet and Clank.
I still have no idea what the hell you we're saying with the Baby vs Mozart. Seriously that didn't make sense.

 

[RaikuFA]

How the fuck did Dan get 4 points?
The internet has destroyed debating forever.

I've seen Akira and part of Full Metal Alchemist so Anime sucks.
I've played Call of Duty so First Person Shooters suck.
What's the difference between those two arguments?
Why is one of them acceptable?

I'd actually take it a step beyond and ask how he got any points in this debate. The first argument for which he was awarded a point was a prime example of faulty generalization which completely ignored the plethora of genres anime as a whole encompasses (everything from Slice of Life to Supernatural Horror, to Psychological Thriller, and from Romantic Comedy to Action-Adventure). In fairness though, Chris did get a point for doing the same with Western Animation and disney princesses, though I would debate the validity of that claim as well.

The second point of "There's no plot because it has to be dubbed" was a pure falsehood and easily disprovable simply by looking at...let's say Monster. Dubbing has very little impact on the plot or the dialogue (at least when the translators/localizers are worth their salt...*glares meaningfully at Zero Wing*).

Third point rather relied on personal cultural prejudice (Read: As he is less familiar with eastern culture than western, he assumes that must be true of everyone else, therefore 'western is more relatable in general') and blatantly ignored the fact that the Hero's Journey Campbell codified was the general pattern that he observed fiction in general, on a global scale. It doesn't belong to western culture.

Final point was pure apples to oranges. Quite literally, he compared what he considered the worst of japanese animation to what many would consider the best of western animation. That is not a fair comparison no matter how you slice it. You do not present a comparison of what you consider a good series of a medium to something you comsider a bad example in another medium and say it exemplifies your point. It would be like if I were to compare Ocarina of Time to Big Rigs Racing and claim that that was proof of racing games inherent inferiority. If you're going to compare things then you HAVE to use a consistent set of criteria. Good vs. Good, Bad vs. Bad, whichever, but you can't compare a Razzie to an Oscar for the sake of making a point about their respective genres.

Aaaaaaaaaand you just proved to me why I'm not gonna eatch this ep.

Thats just disgusting how it went down.

 

[Ragnarok2kx]

Here's a suggestion that breaks a lot of preconceived notions about anime: Monster.
The whole thing just feels more like a prime-time show that just happens to be animated instead of live action.
It's a little on the longer side, clocking at 70ish episodes, and I'll admit that it suffers a bit from the padding problem, but it's very much worth it.

Then again, if you just want to embrace the over-the-top nature of anime, the best recommendation I could give would be the Redline movie. It's basically F-Zero on crack and has a simple plot that at the same time makes absolutely no damn sense at times. However, it looks absolutely gorgeous and has a pretty kickass soundtrack.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

I'm going to go ahead and recommend:

Hellsing
and
Bleach

I haven't seen an awful lot of anime but they were two that had me hooked.

I would agree with the overall outcome of this debate although I wouldn't say either animation STYLE was BETTER. Mostly because Western animation doesn't have one particular style at all so it's not fair to be compared. This debate was more like comparing anime with every other style of animation ever made. No fair contest.

That said, Studio Ghibli can do NO WRONG.

 

[Rakor]

Fanboy....instincts....crying out for action!

But then I understand that it's half trolling.

Firstly, animation style is a weird way to put it given the arguments. I was thinking at first in terms of the style that shows are animated with rather than an overarching east vs west, which is better.

I will say putting anime on the pedestal of how it's generally perceived by it's extremes is the way to go, since otherwise anime is so vast and diverse that any western show has 5 counterparts in anime. Bad dubbing is our (America's) own fault though, watch subtitles. Or watch french dubs. You won't understand it, but it'll be funny as hell. Tangents, where was I?

While some might be overly padded to this end, I still like the ongoing stories you find in anime over the all encompassing episodic style that you'll in any american cartoon. Not to say there aren't good ones of course, and not to say there aren't good anime in the same episodic style.

Furthermore, Anime has zombie ninja cyborg magic space pirates:

Beat that.

 

[Mikeyfell]

How the fuck did Dan get 4 points?
The internet has destroyed debating forever.

I've seen Akira and part of Full Metal Alchemist so Anime sucks.
I've played Call of Duty so First Person Shooters suck.
What's the difference between those two arguments?
Why is one of them acceptable?

I'd actually take it a step beyond and ask how he got any points in this debate. The first argument for which he was awarded a point was a prime example of faulty generalization which completely ignored the plethora of genres anime as a whole encompasses (everything from Slice of Life to Supernatural Horror, to Psychological Thriller, and from Romantic Comedy to Action-Adventure). In fairness though, Chris did get a point for doing the same with Western Animation and disney princesses, though I would debate the validity of that claim as well.

The second point of "There's no plot because it has to be dubbed" was a pure falsehood and easily disprovable simply by looking at...let's say Monster. Dubbing has very little impact on the plot or the dialogue (at least when the translators/localizers are worth their salt...*glares meaningfully at Zero Wing*).

Third point rather relied on personal cultural prejudice (Read: As he is less familiar with eastern culture than western, he assumes that must be true of everyone else, therefore 'western is more relatable in general') and blatantly ignored the fact that the Hero's Journey Campbell codified was the general pattern that he observed fiction in general, on a global scale. It doesn't belong to western culture.

Final point was pure apples to oranges. Quite literally, he compared what he considered the worst of japanese animation to what many would consider the best of western animation. That is not a fair comparison no matter how you slice it. You do not present a comparison of what you consider a good series of a medium to something you comsider a bad example in another medium and say it exemplifies your point. It would be like if I were to compare Ocarina of Time to Big Rigs Racing and claim that that was proof of racing games inherent inferiority. If you're going to compare things then you HAVE to use a consistent set of criteria. Good vs. Good, Bad vs. Bad, whichever, but you can't compare a Razzie to an Oscar for the sake of making a point about their respective genres.

*Golf clap*
It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who would like to see Dan Chris and Kyle held to the standard of professional debaters. This show would have a very different outcome week to week if you or I were judging these arguments.

 

[12th_milkshake]

studio ghibli animations are great, well done, look fantastic, interesting plots - but for some reason are soulless srt, fairly dull and usually too long.

 

[Tanakh]

Not gonna watch this one it seems. Dans nothing but a worthless troll.

This. Dan's knowledge of anime is pitful, Chris also missed too many counterpoints (seems to lack on the anime-fu department).

You don't like DBZ? No shit, it's full of padding, go see DBZ Kai or even better DB (i think it's a better Toriyama's work).

Individual wish fullfilment, achiving dreams? Wow... that sounds exactly like the whole raison d'etre of One Piece. Other good animes with that? Slam Dunk, Hunter X Hunter just off the top of my head.

Don't like Shin-chan? Not going there, i hate yonkoma and everything that resables it.

Aeon Flux, I liked that one, but my nightmares were made of Grave of the Fireflies... and I would contest Aeon Flux is not adult at all, it is much more teenage targeted, stuff like GITS: SAC is much more adult at any rate.

Anyway, yeah, there is a lot of trash anime, and sadly most of the one that is popular both in America and Japan is crap.

Overall, very very poor episode.

I'm going to go ahead and recommend:

Hellsing
and
Bleach

If you are going to see hellsing, do yourself a favour and watch the Hellsing Ultimate OVA, amazingly superior to the regular series, follows the manga more closely, beautiful art, i love that work. Bleach? Mhee, i like the manga because the artist is very well versed in his drawing craft and does an amazing job with the pannels, but the plot is weak, was always weak but now it shows too much.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

And it seems that the anime defenders are lining up to express their outrage. Not that this was unexpected.

Seriously, can you not just take this show for what it is as a comedic argument series without getting offended that someone has a different opinion than you?

 

[esperandote]

Dan you should have countered Chris's argument about not being more good cartoons other than Disney's by mentioning Hanna-Barbera. You would have won by one more point.

CG is animation too otherwise it wouldn't contend on the oscars in the animated film category wich btw has been won mostly by western animations.

 

[Avayu]

As soon as I figured out what this one would be about, I knew it would be a big one, or at least a controversial one. Now that Dan has even won, I see an endless debate incoming.

Suggestion: Ghost in the Shell

Both of the movies AND the "Stand Alone Complex" series.

This MAY make you change your mind about anime, Dan.

It certainly did for me. Well, I still don't care for most anime except for a few select ones. But I can watch GitS: Stand Alone Complex over and over, both seasons back to back. Great story, great animation and it seems a lot more mature than most of the anime I've seen.

 

[Simon Leonhart]

Dan should've suggested Batman the Animated Series as one of the best western cartoons. It has a gritty, distinct and adult style to it which is just great. They don't make em like that anymore.

 

[RandV80]

Apart from the weirdness or translation factor most of anime's cliche flaws comes comes from the transition from comic to animation. The most popular and well known anime's are usually based on their long running and still ongoing manga's, and the animators really have to take a lot of liberties to stretch it out so that the 20 minute weekly animated show stays keeps pace with and doesn't jump ahead of the weekly 18 page manga. This is why in DBZ Goku and Freeza will spend an entire episode grunting at each other with nothing really happening, and there's another half dozen little methods they use. Of course you can't completely excuse since technically it's anime to but it If you want to try and form an educated opinion on the genre it's probably best to separate these.

That said, I've noticed in these while most are good but some people give horrible examples to try and convince someone who doesn't like it that anime is good.

 

[Arif_Sohaib]

I am surprized that no one mentioned Avatar The Last Airbender, the perfect blend of East and West in animation and much better version of the Harry Potter concept.

 

[Aptspire]

Too many styles that weren't even mentioned. What of Horror? (I know I always say it, but Higurashi. You can do a lot worse than that.)

 

[leviadragon99]

Dan really contradicts his own broad generalisation that all anime is the same by mentioning two extremely different styles of anime and admitting that they are that different.

 

[itsausernamewhatofit]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Code Geass. It's a more serious anime so there are very few if not none of the visual animation jokes like the "rain drop", it was an original animations, so unlike DBZ or Naruto it's not based on a manga and as a result they didn't have to extended out episodes with fluff to try to match up with the manga. The animation is good, and it has a very well thought out story.

I love Code Geass and it's one of my favorite anime but I never really try to "convert" people with it, mostly because the character deign is by CLAMP and it really shows. I like the art personally but most of my friends just starting out with anime tend to think that the art looks bizarre and avoid it. What I would start with is either Cowboy Bebop (like he said he was going to try) or Baccano! For those less enlightened Bacanno! is an amazing anime about mobsters in the american 1920s-1930s. It centralizes around a train robbery and the crew of a Dutch ship who in the 1700s were given the secret to immortality. Also the dub of it is incredible.