No Right Answer: Best Father / Son Movie Ever
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Indiana Jones wins because first and foremost: Sean Connery. Anything involving him automatically wins all debates. 
But beyond that, I think the major problem is that this was a debate against a "father figure" and an actual "father". Splinter was a great mentor and a great "father figure" but he's not the turtle's actual father. As such TMNT is missing that intangible dynamic that only exists between an actual father and son combo.
Also, the Last Crusade was built almost entirely around that father-son dynamic where as TMNT is more of a "coming of age" movie for the turtles themselves. Forcing them to grow up and become the heroes that Splinter always knew they could be. Yes, he offers great guidance and the camp fire scene is very moving, but the movie itself is about how the turtles go from rambunctious teenage mutants, just back from their first real victory to being true heroes so that when the day comes that Splinter is no longer there to guide them, they can make it on their own.
But beyond that, I think the major problem is that this was a debate against a "father figure" and an actual "father". Splinter was a great mentor and a great "father figure" but he's not the turtle's actual father. As such TMNT is missing that intangible dynamic that only exists between an actual father and son combo.
Also, the Last Crusade was built almost entirely around that father-son dynamic where as TMNT is more of a "coming of age" movie for the turtles themselves. Forcing them to grow up and become the heroes that Splinter always knew they could be. Yes, he offers great guidance and the camp fire scene is very moving, but the movie itself is about how the turtles go from rambunctious teenage mutants, just back from their first real victory to being true heroes so that when the day comes that Splinter is no longer there to guide them, they can make it on their own.
I haven't seen the first TMNT movie since the turtles were never my thing, so I can't really add or detract from Chris' arguments. What I did want to point out is that I have seen Last Crusade, and there was one interesting father/son dynamic bit that I was surprised Kyle didn't bring up: that of the realization that despite what we do, in many ways all people as adults find that they have more in common with their parents than they either thought possible or ever could bring themselves to admit.
The point of realization that I'm talking about is when Indiana and Jones Sr. are tied back to back in the chairs and Indiana finds out that not only is his Teutonic fling working for the bad guys, but that his dad also totally tapped that, too. The dialogue - the facial expressions - what follows after Indy finds that out is you can tell that Indiana is really starting to look beyond the stern, two-dimensional idea of his dad from his youth to see him as a human being. A human being, who, for better or worse, still shares the overall desires and ambitions that Indiana himself has now. When a character begins honestly asking himself, "Wait, was he like me? Am I going to be like him?", that is when you can have some real character development in a father/son movie, or, with pronouns appropriately changed, a mother/daughter movie.
The point of realization that I'm talking about is when Indiana and Jones Sr. are tied back to back in the chairs and Indiana finds out that not only is his Teutonic fling working for the bad guys, but that his dad also totally tapped that, too. The dialogue - the facial expressions - what follows after Indy finds that out is you can tell that Indiana is really starting to look beyond the stern, two-dimensional idea of his dad from his youth to see him as a human being. A human being, who, for better or worse, still shares the overall desires and ambitions that Indiana himself has now. When a character begins honestly asking himself, "Wait, was he like me? Am I going to be like him?", that is when you can have some real character development in a father/son movie, or, with pronouns appropriately changed, a mother/daughter movie.
I don't see how TMNT really explores the father son relationship. Raph rebels, gets scolded, apologies, splinter gets kidnapped, they save him.
Henry Jones and Indiana (We named the dog Indiana) are constantly getting on each others nerves and chaffing at each other presence, but eventually they come to terms.
no right answer? try no contest.
Henry Jones and Indiana (We named the dog Indiana) are constantly getting on each others nerves and chaffing at each other presence, but eventually they come to terms.
no right answer? try no contest.
I wouldn't have taken either of these. While I know they are both more geek culture oriented, Road to Perdition is one of, if not the best father-son movies I've ever seen. Superb acting and a very solid script made that movie wonderful, and as far as the father-son dynamic, the ending scene blows away aything in either of the two picked for debate this time around. The son breaking the circle of violence by not taking bloody revenge on his father's killer was wonderfully impactful.
I love the fight scene in searching for Bobby Fischer when the mother yells at the sports writer father for pushing his son too hard at chess.
She: How many baseball players are afraid to strike out because it will disappoint their fathers?!?
He: ALL OF THEM!!!
She: How many baseball players are afraid to strike out because it will disappoint their fathers?!?
He: ALL OF THEM!!!
*ahem*
The Lion King
The Kid
Big Fish
In the Name of the Father
Billy Elliot
The Lion King
Fanny & Alexander
Star Wars
Finding Nemo
The Lion King
The Royal Tennenbaums
The Lion King
Road to Perdition
Jumanji
The Road
The Lion King
Boy
25th Hour
Superman
Silver Linings Playbook
The Lion King
Rise of the Planet of the Apes
Oh, and did I mention The Lion King?
Funny debate as always but when it comes to picking movies you both failed misserably this weak
The Lion King
The Kid
Big Fish
In the Name of the Father
Billy Elliot
The Lion King
Fanny & Alexander
Star Wars
Finding Nemo
The Lion King
The Royal Tennenbaums
The Lion King
Road to Perdition
Jumanji
The Road
The Lion King
Boy
25th Hour
Superman
Silver Linings Playbook
The Lion King
Rise of the Planet of the Apes
Oh, and did I mention The Lion King?
Funny debate as always but when it comes to picking movies you both failed misserably this weak
I already see a few naysayers here. ...[cracks knuckles]
Wrongo!!! TMNT 1989 is ALL about fatherhood. There is a right answer, and you guys got it wrong. lol Chris, you lost because you only focused on one particular relationship (Splinter and his turtles), when almost every character in the movie applies.
The Shredder: is creating a gang by enlisting neglected children and teens by offering them power and freedom their parents wouldn't. Specifically says "This is your family. I am your father." He says it in the exact same intonation as Darth Vader in ESB, which some might call a rip-off, but what I think was an intentional homage for the sake of contrast (especially considering the pre-existing similar character design). When Vader says it, he's being honest and literal, when Shredder says it, he's being disingenuous and manipulative.
Tatsu and The Foot: aforementioned teens who've turned to crime to partake in the freedoms enjoyed at the warehouse. They've all rejected the establishment and confines their parents imposed. No rules. "GO. PLAY." Tatsu is also an example of the evil manipulation afoot (nudge, nudge). In the training room, after he kicks that kid in the face, he says, "never lower your eyes to an enemy" making it very explicit that these men, in the guise of family, are exploitive and dangerous. Later, he returns to the same room to throw a tantrum and kicks the shit out of a bunch of the teens, knocking one out (killing him in the original script), and giving the kids a chance to mull over the idea that this might not be the family they're looking for. Tatsu's character can easily be drawn as allegorical to abusive fathers who's simple-mindedness and lack of temper control can destroy the idealized family they've worked so hard to build, on top of blatantly hurting the younger and more innocent.
April: lives in an apartment above a shop that her father used to own. Keeps running the business even though it's losing money because she misses him. Has to deal with the loss of all of it when it burns down, paralleling the loss the turtles are experiencing. They then retreat to the farmhouse she grew up in. That's probably her father's truck Casey and Don repair.
Casey: a (possibly homeless) man-child who played games for a living until injured, after which he became an aggressive vigilante, lacking sophistication and using unregulated violence to combat the ills he perceives of the world - representation of society's fears about boys who grow up without father figures.
Splinter: his whole motivation for raising the turtles as ninjas was to restore honor to his family in lieu of the murder of his father figure (former owner), Hamato Yoshi, who was killed by Oroku Saki (The Shredder). When the turtles fight the Foot, we're witnessing a war waged by fathers (over the death of one of their fathers), but fought by their children.
Danny: a non-canon character with his own feature-spanning subplot? What could the significance of that be? Oh wait, it's because he runs away from his father(April's boss, who is also the one who fires her as her father's shop is burning) when his father faces a fathering dilemma and shows flawed effectiveness and befuddlement at how to deal with the situation, spurring Danny into the middle of a conflict between the Shredder and Splinter (each idealized and opposing father figures) who he spends the film switching his allegiances to and learning from, in the end reuniting with his own father and forgiving him his flaws as well as acknowledging his own. Both Danny and his father then correct wrongs they've both incurred on April.
I don't even need to get into the turtles themselves, because their personalities and individual relationships to Splinter are all well known and on display throughout the movie (well mostly Raph and Leo, which is probably why they included that chat between Don and Mike when they're waiting for pizza at the beginning, so they could just carry out comic relief duties for the rest of the film).
The Last Crusade had Dr.Jones Sr. and Jr. bickering cutely. And skronking the same chick. I bet they high-fived after the credits.
Wrongo!!! TMNT 1989 is ALL about fatherhood. There is a right answer, and you guys got it wrong. lol Chris, you lost because you only focused on one particular relationship (Splinter and his turtles), when almost every character in the movie applies.
The Shredder: is creating a gang by enlisting neglected children and teens by offering them power and freedom their parents wouldn't. Specifically says "This is your family. I am your father." He says it in the exact same intonation as Darth Vader in ESB, which some might call a rip-off, but what I think was an intentional homage for the sake of contrast (especially considering the pre-existing similar character design). When Vader says it, he's being honest and literal, when Shredder says it, he's being disingenuous and manipulative.
Tatsu and The Foot: aforementioned teens who've turned to crime to partake in the freedoms enjoyed at the warehouse. They've all rejected the establishment and confines their parents imposed. No rules. "GO. PLAY." Tatsu is also an example of the evil manipulation afoot (nudge, nudge). In the training room, after he kicks that kid in the face, he says, "never lower your eyes to an enemy" making it very explicit that these men, in the guise of family, are exploitive and dangerous. Later, he returns to the same room to throw a tantrum and kicks the shit out of a bunch of the teens, knocking one out (killing him in the original script), and giving the kids a chance to mull over the idea that this might not be the family they're looking for. Tatsu's character can easily be drawn as allegorical to abusive fathers who's simple-mindedness and lack of temper control can destroy the idealized family they've worked so hard to build, on top of blatantly hurting the younger and more innocent.
April: lives in an apartment above a shop that her father used to own. Keeps running the business even though it's losing money because she misses him. Has to deal with the loss of all of it when it burns down, paralleling the loss the turtles are experiencing. They then retreat to the farmhouse she grew up in. That's probably her father's truck Casey and Don repair.
Casey: a (possibly homeless) man-child who played games for a living until injured, after which he became an aggressive vigilante, lacking sophistication and using unregulated violence to combat the ills he perceives of the world - representation of society's fears about boys who grow up without father figures.
Splinter: his whole motivation for raising the turtles as ninjas was to restore honor to his family in lieu of the murder of his father figure (former owner), Hamato Yoshi, who was killed by Oroku Saki (The Shredder). When the turtles fight the Foot, we're witnessing a war waged by fathers (over the death of one of their fathers), but fought by their children.
Danny: a non-canon character with his own feature-spanning subplot? What could the significance of that be? Oh wait, it's because he runs away from his father(April's boss, who is also the one who fires her as her father's shop is burning) when his father faces a fathering dilemma and shows flawed effectiveness and befuddlement at how to deal with the situation, spurring Danny into the middle of a conflict between the Shredder and Splinter (each idealized and opposing father figures) who he spends the film switching his allegiances to and learning from, in the end reuniting with his own father and forgiving him his flaws as well as acknowledging his own. Both Danny and his father then correct wrongs they've both incurred on April.
I don't even need to get into the turtles themselves, because their personalities and individual relationships to Splinter are all well known and on display throughout the movie (well mostly Raph and Leo, which is probably why they included that chat between Don and Mike when they're waiting for pizza at the beginning, so they could just carry out comic relief duties for the rest of the film).
The Last Crusade had Dr.Jones Sr. and Jr. bickering cutely. And skronking the same chick. I bet they high-fived after the credits.
To be fair, they can only pick two. A lot of good movies have to be left on the table.tarnim80 said:*ahem*
The Lion King
The Kid
Big Fish
In the Name of the Father
Billy Elliot
The Lion King
Fanny & Alexander
Star Wars
Finding Nemo
The Lion King
The Royal Tennenbaums
The Lion King
Road to Perdition
Jumanji
The Road
The Lion King
Boy
25th Hour
Superman
Silver Linings Playbook
The Lion King
Rise of the Planet of the Apes
Oh, and did I mention The Lion King?
Funny debate as always but when it comes to picking movies you both failed misserably this weak
Even out of that list, I'd go with Big Fish. To this day, it's one of the few movies that manages to hit me right in the feels every time I watch it.Rituro said:To be fair, they can only pick two. A lot of good movies have to be left on the table.tarnim80 said:*ahem*
The Lion King
The Kid
Big Fish
In the Name of the Father
Billy Elliot
The Lion King
Fanny & Alexander
Star Wars
Finding Nemo
The Lion King
The Royal Tennenbaums
The Lion King
Road to Perdition
Jumanji
The Road
The Lion King
Boy
25th Hour
Superman
Silver Linings Playbook
The Lion King
Rise of the Planet of the Apes
Oh, and did I mention The Lion King?
Funny debate as always but when it comes to picking movies you both failed misserably this weak
Edit: That and " La vita è bella"
Thank you very much. We can have our own Pizza Party!Chris Pranger said:Give this man a prize!Phuctifyno said:
I'm really just happy that someone's on my side here.