No Right Answer: Best/Worst Anime Ever

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Ikajo said:
In Japanese the word "anime" is an abbreviation of the word "Animation" which is pronounced "animeshon".
That's why this fails in two languages.

In Japan, anime is defined as animation, and is a catch-all term. In the US, it's generally defined as being from or of the style of Japanese animation. Which would actually, yes, make ATLA Anime in the same sense we wouldn't disqualify a symphony by a Japanese composer as "not classical" simply because it wasn't done by a European. Simple Logic's right here. People try and add to the definition to preclude things, but that's not how the term is generally used.

The very basic difference is that an episode in an American cartoon can stand for itself an episode in anime tells a continuous story where you as a viewer is dependent on having seen earlier episodes.
Untrue.

This is also the reason why some American cartoons run forever while anime usually ends at one point or another. Some animes ends after 25 episodes, some end after 12.
Some anime run "forever," while some western cartoons get a 13 episode run. So while this is technically true, it's also worthless.

Another big difference is that western culture is much more dependent on dialogue to tell a story than eastern culture is.
Wow, I must be watching the wrong anime, then. Because the stuff I watch, characters often pause in the middle of a fight to exposit soliloquies that would have Shakepseare going "fuck's sake, man, get on with it!"

And keep in mind this is in a thread about Dragon Ball Z, a show which ran well over 200 episodes and was massively guilty of monologuing. I suppose exposition diarrhea could be symbolic of something, but really.
 

Dollabillyall

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Jul 18, 2012
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The thing about DBZ is that it is the perfect example of everything that is good and bad about anime. It has all things that anyone has ever said they like or dislike about anime in general except gratuitous sexual fanservice.
On the one hand you have the great things of anime like complex plots, eastern styles, fast action interspersed with personal and interpersonal drama, the ramping up of epicness...
Then on the other hand you have the worst things that happen in anime like extreme amounts of BS filler, "moments" that go on for three episodes, convoluted ways to deal with lengthening the series, the breaking of any and every boundary ever previously set as "unbreakable" and a never-ending list of episodes.

I think that the reason why DBZ cannot ever be considered the best anime is because it exactly does those typical anime fudge-ups. It feels like a story that is first stretched out too far to make episodes worth watching and then gets arbitrary nonsense tacked onto it because IT STILL MAKES MONEYS. That makes things like "going super saiyan" absolutely uneventful... because what was once the ultimate power and therefore the reason why a story can be concluded is later considered barely powerful enough to fry an egg. The ramping up of power levels just so the money can keep flowing is ridiculous and it completely mitigates any sense of character progression throughout the series.

I think if you would watch the series up until the end of the Frieza saga and just conclude it there.. you have some sort of story that makes sense as a narrative. Watching anything after that not only adds nothing NEW (super saiyin 2,3,4 is not *NEW* but a rehash of the same things over and over again) it actually takes value OUT of the earlier series.
Add to this that the investment of time (the most precious resource known to man)is incredibly high at almost 300 episodes... I would deem this series not worth watching. Dragon Ball Kai actually supports this view, as they cut 200 episodes out of the original work and still are able to put the entire thing to screen.

Actually, the ammount of episodes to me is probably the biggest sin committed by animes. I started watching Naruto but quit around episode 20 because I then learned there where about 400 episodes and no conclusion of the story was in sight. I could spend that same time enjoying 10 other stories of 40 episodes, learning a skill, making sweet sweet love, travelling, working or whatever. That makes a series like that unwatchable and inherently not worth the time you have to put in. A good story ends and does not ask from it's audience that they sit through 200 hours of telling before getting to the point, or at least that is my view.
 

jhoroz

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crazygameguy4ever said:
when i saw the title of best/worst anime ever i assumed they would talk about the best anime ever which is Bleach and the worst anime ever, Attack on titan.. but dragon ball z? it's not very good from what little I've seen.. maybe you can call it average at best
In what bizarro world do we exist where a shitshow like Bleach can even be considered to be anything but mediocre shounen dreck?
 

Ikajo

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Oct 31, 2013
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Zachary Amaranth said:
Ikajo said:
In Japanese the word "anime" is an abbreviation of the word "Animation" which is pronounced "animeshon".
That's why this fails in two languages.

In Japan, anime is defined as animation, and is a catch-all term. In the US, it's generally defined as being from or of the style of Japanese animation. Which would actually, yes, make ATLA Anime in the same sense we wouldn't disqualify a symphony by a Japanese composer as "not classical" simply because it wasn't done by a European. Simple Logic's right here. People try and add to the definition to preclude things, but that's not how the term is generally used.
I don't really understand what you are trying to say. It feels like you are not contradicting me while trying to do so.

The very basic difference is that an episode in an American cartoon can stand for itself an episode in anime tells a continuous story where you as a viewer is dependent on having seen earlier episodes.
Untrue.

This is also the reason why some American cartoons run forever while anime usually ends at one point or another. Some animes ends after 25 episodes, some end after 12.
Some anime run "forever," while some western cartoons get a 13 episode run. So while this is technically true, it's also worthless.
...I do say "some American cartoons", if I'm not wrong that is a a way of saying "not all". I also do say "usually" which, as far as I know, that there exist exemptions. I do believe my English is good enough to use both those correctly, which would mean you didn't really read my post. Because yet again, you are not contradicting me while not actually doing so.

Another big difference is that western culture is much more dependent on dialogue to tell a story than eastern culture is.
Wow, I must be watching the wrong anime, then. Because the stuff I watch, characters often pause in the middle of a fight to exposit soliloquies that would have Shakepseare going "fuck's sake, man, get on with it!"

And keep in mind this is in a thread about Dragon Ball Z, a show which ran well over 200 episodes and was massively guilty of monologuing. I suppose exposition diarrhea could be symbolic of something, but really.
You don't know Shakespeare very well it seems... Anyway, in anime this occur much more often then in manga, true. It also occur much more often in dubbed anime then in the original. Take DBZ, some of the things the dub did is just stupid. In one episode more then a third of the dialogue would be added and if not added, changed in weird ways.

I'm actually very familiar with Dragonball, the anime has a lot of fillers. Meaning that the actual storyline is different in the manga. Even things such as exposition. However, it's only in comics I have seen narration boxes telling me stuff I'm able to discern from just looking at the panels. In manga, I never have to be told what a character feels. In comics, this is part of the narration.
Yes, the Dragonball Z anime added a lot of things, including a whole story arc. This was very common at the time, Bleach added four or five extra seasons. Newer anime does this differently.
Even then I will still hold that there is a difference in how western culture and eastern culture tell a story. A story that know how to breath and doesn't depend on a lots of fights to move forward is something quite good. There are plenty manga and anime that isn't shounen. People should check it out.
 

Ishal

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Oct 30, 2012
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This was pretty entertaining.

I really can't remember if DBZ was the first thing that got me into anime. It was definitely part of it, but I think there were other shows that contributed more that were airing on Toonami. Outlaw Star, Gundam Wing, and Kenshin being a few.

I don't know if it's the worst. I'm sure there are many things out there that are worse than DBZ. But DBZ does have some of the things I dislike most about anime. Awful pacing, nothing happening for episodes at a time, worthless side characters who contribute nothing. OTT dialogue that sounds awful even when it's dubbed. The list goes on. It's tropey, like so much else. And if you don't care for the tropes, you're gonna have a bad time. Luckily I discovered that lots of anime used the same tropes, and so stopped myself from becoming an anime fan.

DBZ had it's moments, it's just most of them were bad rather than good.
 

Auron225

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Oct 26, 2009
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It sure as hell isn't the best! I wouldn't call it the worst either though.

This is why I find it hard to compare Naruto or Bleach to any other anime with a sane duration. There can be so much goodness in something that seemingly never ends, but that means... that it never f*cking ends!

I've personally never watched it. I watched the abridged series for a while, and was astounded at how even in an abridged series it can take so damn long to finish Namek. I couldn't bring myself to watch it.
 

Super Cyborg

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jhoroz said:
crazygameguy4ever said:
when i saw the title of best/worst anime ever i assumed they would talk about the best anime ever which is Bleach and the worst anime ever, Attack on titan.. but dragon ball z? it's not very good from what little I've seen.. maybe you can call it average at best
In what bizarro world do we exist where a shitshow like Bleach can even be considered to be anything but mediocre shounen dreck?
The same world that shippers in Naruto were completely depressed that their shipping pairs didn't happen, and the 100's of thousands of word length fanfics mean nothing now. Also, just that this world has shippers in general.

I would argue about best and worst anime, but the ones I would most likely put up are because I read the Manga, and often times the anime form can change opinions (according to many, One Piece animation is so bad at times that it can really ruin the show). If I was to say best and worst of anime shows I've watched, I would say Clannad (both seasons) as my favorite, and Ah! My Goddess being the bane of my existence.
 

ExileNZ

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Personally I only saw a couple of eps here and there before actually getting into the story - and I got into the story around the beginning of the Cell Games.

For me, that's also the best place to end the story. The Bojack movie made a nice little epilogue, with Gohan realising that if he really wanted to defend anybody he was going to have to step up his game and take fighting seriously, fully assuming Goku's mantle.
 

PapaGreg096

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Oct 12, 2013
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crazygameguy4ever said:
when i saw the title of best/worst anime ever i assumed they would talk about the best anime ever which is Bleach and the worst anime ever, Attack on titan.. but dragon ball z? it's not very good from what little I've seen.. maybe you can call it average at best
Friend you need to watch more anime, because there are anime that literal crushes Bleach in terms of everything
 

Conan_Edogawa

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Apr 14, 2009
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"Is DBZ the best or worst anime ever?"

yes.

watch DBZ abridged instead, because it's funnier, faster, and, in my opinion, even manages to fix parts that kinda stunk about DBZ itself.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Ikajo said:
I don't really understand what you are trying to say. It feels like you are not contradicting me while trying to do so.
That would be weird, onsidering I just agreed with the poster you were disagreeing with. That would mean that you agree with the person that you've been contradicting.

...I do say "some American cartoons", if I'm not wrong that is a a way of saying "not all". I also do say "usually" which, as far as I know, that there exist exemptions. I do believe my English is good enough to use both those correctly, which would mean you didn't really read my post. Because yet again, you are not contradicting me while not actually doing so.
But again, these statements are worthless, which is the exact wording I just used. I tackled your exact wording, even.

I sort of get the feeling you're "not understanding" intentionally. But, for a moment, I will entertain the notion that you are actually very confused about your own argument or something.

The vast majority of cartoon shows in the US last a season or two. This is actually fairly equivalent to the run times of anime. For big name, popular shows the target is 56, considered the minimum for syndication packages. But these shows are almost always the equivalent of Shounen anime in Japan, so any comparison to the show length discounting shounen anime is dishonest (you do this later). Shounen anime tends to the long-running side, which parallels well with those western cartoons you're trying to compare to the whole of Japanese animation.

No, a fair parallel is these long-running shows the long-running equivalent.

You don't know Shakespeare very well it seems...
We hang around regularly.

Anyway, in anime this occur much more often then in manga, true.
You mean, the subject in question here?

It also occur much more often in dubbed anime then in the original. Take DBZ, some of the things the dub did is just stupid. In one episode more then a third of the dialogue would be added and if not added, changed in weird ways.
Yeah, before I made that statement, I watched some DBZ clips on YouTube in their original Japanese. And while you might insist on it being a dubbing issue, my collection is full of anime that do this in the original language.

Even then I will still hold that there is a difference in how western culture and eastern culture tell a story.
You can hold to that all you want. Your examples are still bull.

A story that know how to breath and doesn't depend on a lots of fights to move forward is something quite good. There are plenty manga and anime that isn't shounen. People should check it out.
Well, that totally wasn't condescending.

But again, you seem to be comparing all anime to the equivalent of Shounen to reach this conclusion. That's dishonest.
 

Fox12

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Jun 6, 2013
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It was neither.

It had funny and likable characters, a serviceable plot that could border on decent from time to time, and, balls to the wall, some of the best action ever portrayed on a television screen, period. For a five year old kid, that's enough, especially when he's shown something like this:

for the first time. Shakespeare it was not, but anyone who claims that DBZ lacked a certain narrative flair is a liar. It was certainly something new to a generation of 90's kids who were used to Disney Channel, and it showed us a new way to tell stories. People died, or were maimed, or were injured. Even if the affects weren't long lasting, it was a wake up call. It also served as an introduction into a medium that none of us had ever seen before, but which many of us would come to love. Afterwards, many of us would continue to explore the genre, and find great intellectual material for an older audience, most of which was superior to DBZ in almost every way.

It doesn't have the soul of Miyazaki, the brain of Satoshi Kon, or the internal meditation of Anno, but it certainly has its place in anime. It's the best in the world at what it set out to do, and it deserves to be respected for that.
 

RJ Dalton

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Aug 13, 2009
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Scarim Coral said:
Couldn't we just settle that it was "ok" or "average" anime at the most?
Maybe a little less than average (there was so much wasted time in the filler . . .). It's certainly not anywhere close to great, but worst? Oh, gods, no. There is a hell of a lot of anime that are worse. Way worse.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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I've never seen a full episode of DBZ, but every clip I've seen involves shakey faced people smirking and insulting each other for 20 minutes, SCREAMING ALL THE TIME, and moves that can be seen from space but don't do anything to anyone involved.

I've never seen a reason to actually watch it.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Aug 28, 2008
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It's not the best and it's not the worst, by a large margin in both cases.



An argument could be made it's one of the most important anime, however. It is responsible for millions of people getting into anime more deeply than people normally get into tv programs. It transformed people from normal people into anime fans more than most other anime have. Each generation has one such series and for us 20somethings or older DBZ is likely it while for the younger audiences there's stuff like Naruto, One Piece or even Attack on Titan for current era teenagers.


Also, the original Dragonball wasn't all jokes. It didn't get serious just in Z. Just watch the Daimaou Piccolo ark. It just had a larger ratio of jokes to serious stuff than Z does (Z barely has any jokes) and it has a lot more sexual humor.
 

Ikajo

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Oct 31, 2013
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Zachary Amaranth said:
I don't have the energy to argue about this, the winter darkness is sapping me, so I will just condense it down.

I, very literately, didn't understand what you were trying to say. Probably because my English skills isn't perfect, some subtleties do go me by at times. And maybe you weren't expressing yourself properly, the combination doesn't sound promising. Trying to argue with someone you don't understand properly is quite difficult wouldn't you say. Oh, and just so you know. English isn't my native language so I do have proper reason for somewhat lacking skills.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
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Well... That was... Weird...

Gotta give a guy some credit though for managing to have such a heated argument... With... Himself... XD

I mean, that takes some doing...

Arguing with another person is easy. But arguing with yourself?

Anyway... Dragonball Z... That show annoys me. Like Naruto. In fact, what annoys me about both is basically the same thing. They draw things out SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long at some point you just wish they'd get over it and continue with whatever was actually going on...