Notch Decides Not To Back Psychonauts 2
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I'm more shocked by the $18M price tag than anything else
We see 3D indie games all the time on a budget of free
We see 3D indie games all the time on a budget of free
28 people is too much for a full 3D Game? Not really. Nooo way is that too little. You're also forgetting costs associated with distribution, marketing and sales, legal, the whole nine yards. What DoubleFine is doing is making sure that they have the talent to get this game done correctly so that it doesn't squander its kickstarter money as well as the name of the brand. That's not cheap.bearlotz said:Holy well-spoken post, Batman! +5 internets to you, Scars.Scars Unseen said:$18 million isn't a lot? Maybe by AAA publisher standards where they spend ludicrously excessive amounts of cash on administrative costs and marketing. Chris Roberts brought up a chart of manpower costs when he was explaining why he was asking for as much money as he was for Star Citizen. Let's look at that, shall we?
So the total cost(including equipment and software) for a member of a game development team(aside from those QA peasants) is around $127,571 per year. So let's assume a long development time: 5 years. $18M would pay for a 28 man team for 5 years. Frankly, I think that 28 people may be a bit of overkill for a platformer, as is a 5 year development cycle. $18M is quite a lot of money when you don't have to feed CEOs and plaster your game's image on every major television network every 10 minutes.
If these numbers are correct, I find it completely plausible that Notch was surprised by the 18M bill for this project.
And Notch? Notch is what we would call "lucky". He got to invest 100k of his own money into a game and watch it produce millions. Not many have that opportunity. The problem? It gets to his head. He takes the concept and full look of Infiniminer, slaps on some RPG Elements that most of the people who play the game don't care about (a lot of servers even run with it off), and now he feels can comment on anything in the gaming industry and make commitments that are far over his head.
Helloooooo ego.
He could give me some of it > > I'll put it to good use.DVS BSTrD said:
Edit: Such is life. No big deal, I'll probably keep buying Double Fines games just because they're fun.
It would not have bothered me at all if he hadn't just gone on about how much money he has and how he doesn't know what to do with it all.
Oh well.
Oh well.
Um... how about Notch thinks before he acts. He committed to backing a game without knowing how much it would cost. He did so without consulting anyone within his company for any real numbers, or any real numbers from DoubleFine. If you read this article, then, you'll find that he made an assumption based on his rather trivial investment in Minecraft (100k dollars), and then applied that to another game project. He then -reached out- to Tim Schaffer and said that he would help make Psychonauts 2 happen. Tim wasn't begging him for money. Notch reached OUT to him! If I remember right, Tim got an email from Notch that said "Let's make Psychonauts 2 Happen", or something along those lines.A Smooth Criminal said:
Then he has the gall to say, "Oh, well 18 million is a lot of money! Silly me! How could they spend such an amount? I made millions off of Minecraft after investing 100k!"
The guy lives in a bubble of his own ego. He needs a reality check, because when he speaks, he often comes across as disconnected.
I won't say I hate Notch, not for this really, but I will say this:erttheking said:
I fucking called it!!
A year ago, when Notch made a big show of telling Tim Schaffer, "Psychonauts 2, let's make it happen.", I was as excited as just about everyone else. I'm a big fan of the first game, so the prospect of another delighted me.
However, I know Notch. Or rather, I know how he acts. As such, given his tendency to talk big but inevitably flake on his responsibilities, I knew...just KNEW...he'd back out of the deal. I seriously hoped this time would be different, but seeing as it's not, I'm not surprised.
But hey, he got what he wanted. Practically a year of love, praise, and admiration from the 'net community for "standing up" to the big-bad-triple-A studios and promising to fund a sequel to a series that was considered a financial failure.
Oh wow, I forgot about the part where Notch signed a contract and Tim Schaffer jumped on board rather than running off to crowdfund some point and click adventure game.Nocturnus said:
Notch made no commitment. He expressed serious interest in privately funding Psychonauts 2. Then, after receiving an estimate of the cost, he decided he didn't want to invest $18M on the game. You say he should think before he acts, and that's what he did. Quit trying to demonize him for it.
Yes, he's said some things that are commendable. However, he also has a tendency to jump the shark and say things that are ... not very bright.
Remember the whole Windows 8 Comment that he made? Over them asking him to renew his certificate with Microsoft for the OS? What he didn't tell you was that he already did this for Windows 7, Vista, and XP. He also certed it for XBox Live, who's marketplace takes a 30% cut similar to Steam. Forgetting even the cert issue, why was he railing against W8? Because of the Windows Store, which.. takes a 30% cut. Similar to Steam. And similar to the service he's already using... XBoxLive Arcade.
The guy just doesn't think these things through when he gets heated and passionate. He'll make stupid statements and commitments without researching things, or assessing what he's already done that might contradict it.
And does he have an ego? Yes. Because with all that, he likes to speak as though he represents the entire Indy Gaming Community.
Does he say some good things? Yes. Does he fall flat on his face a lot? Heck yes. Does he have an ego? Better believe it. I mean, just a few days ago he was talking about how he had more money than he knew what to do with. Ugh...
Oh yeah, if not just developing on PC, I think each dev kit costs like $10k and at the end of the project you have to give it back (they don't reimburse you). And paying for support from them in case of hardware failures. And paying for the certify process for release for the consoles.
Also not just regular salaries but also paying for the voice actors too!
And maybe paying off any debt incurred from the past.
DF's webpage lists them at ~65 people. I don't know how they divvy up the project teams and all that, but it would suck if only the P2 people got the funding for the guestimated 28 people @ 5 years and left the other half to fend for themselves.
Nevermind that the various dev disciplines overlap their production periods all the time, as people transfer in and out, so you might as well fund the whole studio.
So $18 million / (65 people @ $127k cost) = ~2.17 years.
Suddenly that $18 million doesn't seem so large anymore, does it?
Also not just regular salaries but also paying for the voice actors too!
And maybe paying off any debt incurred from the past.
DF's webpage lists them at ~65 people. I don't know how they divvy up the project teams and all that, but it would suck if only the P2 people got the funding for the guestimated 28 people @ 5 years and left the other half to fend for themselves.
Nevermind that the various dev disciplines overlap their production periods all the time, as people transfer in and out, so you might as well fund the whole studio.
So $18 million / (65 people @ $127k cost) = ~2.17 years.
Suddenly that $18 million doesn't seem so large anymore, does it?
Even if it's quite high for a single person, they could still find a way: apparently Notch didn't have reservations when he thought it was 13 millions, perhaps the rest could be raised via crowdfunding given Schaefer already has experience with that process and there are tons of fans eagerly hoping for that game.
Well... looks like I just learned a little something about finances. Hardly was even expecting such.
It is for the best.
I would rather never have a Psychonauts 2. It makes the other one so unique and special. It was in a way one of the best worlds I got to explore and some amazing characters that I got to literally bump brains with. It would be like Grim Fandango 2.
I would love it, I would instantly buy it. But something about the 2 on the end just doesn't feel right.
I would rather never have a Psychonauts 2. It makes the other one so unique and special. It was in a way one of the best worlds I got to explore and some amazing characters that I got to literally bump brains with. It would be like Grim Fandango 2.
I would love it, I would instantly buy it. But something about the 2 on the end just doesn't feel right.
Well gee. If only we had someone who has actually been and worked in the games industry hands on and can give us some insights with a topic in gaming discussion or something.ThriKreen said:
Where are we going to get one of those guys?
Wow, I thought 18m was a huge amount for the sequel to such a tiny cult classic, but then I went and looked up the original's budget. 13 million.
It's an interesting little game but my god it's hard to see how it was worth 13 million dollars. I'd say it was a smart decision by Notch, I really don't think the game is worth that much. I get that they have to pay employees, but when you see smaller companies making comparable games for much less, it's hard to justify.
It's an interesting little game but my god it's hard to see how it was worth 13 million dollars. I'd say it was a smart decision by Notch, I really don't think the game is worth that much. I get that they have to pay employees, but when you see smaller companies making comparable games for much less, it's hard to justify.
Honestly, I'd assume the opposite, that Notch (as beloved as he is) would be defended for his decision, and Tim Schaffer (still beloved) would be demonised for his games.erttheking said:
I'm gonna go ahead and believe the talentless hack who worked at Bioware and Volition (AND BEFORE ANYONE YELLS AT ME, READ HIS FORUM TITLE).ThriKreen said:
I don't blame Notch for this at all. Even if he has twenty million squirreled away, eighteen million is insanely expensive.
Luckily I'm human, so I've done the exact same thing a million times because I'm incredibly ignorant. Like, my knowledge is a drop in the ocean of information, the rest of said ocean I am ignorant of. Then, within that drop of knowledge, there's only one stable isotope of knowledge, while the rest is incorrect knowledge, undiscovered knowledge, baseless knowledge, and what I'm sure is more because my ignorance is tricky in that I don't know what I don't know because I don't know its a thing that I could know, and is entirely dependent on outside sources delivering it to me. It hasn't been a one time event, either. I have found that usually every time I learn something, I did not know it beforehand. No matter how hard I try to cover all my bases, I have been shown repeatedly, in every single bit of knowledge I've ever had, that I was missing crucial pieces that change everything, and if, when I was younger, someone had told a story about a man who was wrong, but thought he was right and tried to convince other people of it, and made decisions based on it for years, or months, or days, and then was shown some missing pieces that made him aware of his error, I'd have thought there was a hell and that was it. That's just life though, for humans, at least.
So, I'd have to be delusional or incredibly dense to expect anything else from people. I at least can be thankful when its an area I have knowledge in, so I can be of some use and share my strengths with those for whom it is a weakness, and when I make mistakes they can do the same for me. I can't imagine any human responding with judgement, criticism that isn't useful at all, unforgiving condemnation, or anything that indicates they don't understand, because they do.
Speaking of, I have some ignorance I need help with; when I don't like something, or have any negative emotions about something, it is ALWAYS lack of understanding. I set out to figure out what I don't understand and eliminate the lies that allow me to justify being a cancerous growth on said issue. Is that not always the case? Does understanding not always eliminate judgement? "THEY SHOUDLN'T HAVE" VS "I CAN SEE WHY", whether you like, dislike, agree, or disagree?
But, here I am, a human, rambling on in a thread populated by beings of pure, brilliant light, far superior to me in every way, who also make up the majority of the internet where said thread exists. I am humbled to even be allowed to post here. I do have trouble understanding that species, though, as I do not think I would ever enjoy judgement, even if I were to find perfection one day. I guess it doesn't feel disingenuous when you don't have to make mistakes to get there.
So, my feelings on the matter are as follows, as unimportant and useless as they are: I don't care, but if I did, I would be disappointed, because I know what it's like to have expectations that prove to be premature, or that took many liberties in establishing themselves where the liberties ended up not matching reality. Its always a thing to be grateful for that there is an opportunity here for people to become harder, better, faster, stronger.
On a side note, it looks like many of you could have prevented this, I trust all of you tried to contact Notch and requested to handle his business affairs back when this was first announced? If only I wasn't just as ignorant as Notch, even more so, and could not see this coming with any sort of certainty, or I'd have done it myself.
So, I'd have to be delusional or incredibly dense to expect anything else from people. I at least can be thankful when its an area I have knowledge in, so I can be of some use and share my strengths with those for whom it is a weakness, and when I make mistakes they can do the same for me. I can't imagine any human responding with judgement, criticism that isn't useful at all, unforgiving condemnation, or anything that indicates they don't understand, because they do.
Speaking of, I have some ignorance I need help with; when I don't like something, or have any negative emotions about something, it is ALWAYS lack of understanding. I set out to figure out what I don't understand and eliminate the lies that allow me to justify being a cancerous growth on said issue. Is that not always the case? Does understanding not always eliminate judgement? "THEY SHOUDLN'T HAVE" VS "I CAN SEE WHY", whether you like, dislike, agree, or disagree?
But, here I am, a human, rambling on in a thread populated by beings of pure, brilliant light, far superior to me in every way, who also make up the majority of the internet where said thread exists. I am humbled to even be allowed to post here. I do have trouble understanding that species, though, as I do not think I would ever enjoy judgement, even if I were to find perfection one day. I guess it doesn't feel disingenuous when you don't have to make mistakes to get there.
So, my feelings on the matter are as follows, as unimportant and useless as they are: I don't care, but if I did, I would be disappointed, because I know what it's like to have expectations that prove to be premature, or that took many liberties in establishing themselves where the liberties ended up not matching reality. Its always a thing to be grateful for that there is an opportunity here for people to become harder, better, faster, stronger.
On a side note, it looks like many of you could have prevented this, I trust all of you tried to contact Notch and requested to handle his business affairs back when this was first announced? If only I wasn't just as ignorant as Notch, even more so, and could not see this coming with any sort of certainty, or I'd have done it myself.
Skipping to the only part that matters... uhh... not everyone has the patience to look up these kind of figures and consult Notch about them. That's sort of his and his financial advisors' responsibilities, not ours.BoxKnocker said:
And as for Notch backing out of the deal... he has all the reason to do so. $18 M? For someone that's just getting into having all of that money, that's kind of a huge blow. I can understand why, when he's faced with an actual price tag, he's reluctant to go through with it.
We might not be getting Double Fine 2, but at least Notch isn't doing anything that would threaten Mojang.