Nothing is ever truly random.

[KenzS]

 

[NeutralDrow]

I fail to understand your definition of "random."

Especially with regards to this. You seem to be defining "random" as "any number of possible occurrences that have an equal chance of happening." To which I want to say (as politely as I can) "Well, duh." But that's not what random means; randomness results from an occurrence that isn't an absolute certainty.

To use your example, the fact that you have a slightly higher chance of rolling a six than a one on a die doesn't mean the outcome of a die roll isn't random, it means that without tampering, you have a slightly higher random chance of getting a six.

I think the conversation stemmed around the idea that nothing is perfectly random, something I might have not written into my post well. If, as your example states, that there is a higher chance of getting a six it still counts as a random event, but is not a perfectly random event, ie there is not a 1/6 chance of rolling a six. Or have I just gone around in circles again?

That makes much more sense, and is even sort of an interesting point.

Attaching meaning to such a point is more questionable, however...but that wasn't you, that was the other poster.

 

[Inverse Skies]

Oh, theres also some interesting comments on chaos in order and order in chaos that you can view in books on the chaos theory.

Everything I've heard about chaos theory is interesting, how you can't model say the movement of a billiard ball on a table using traditional physics because you can't account for irregularities in the surface of the cloth etc. It's similar to what we're discussing here actually.

 

[Dys]

Umm, chaos theory anyone?
There are more than enough random chance encounters that have no bearing whatsoever on any life form to make your logic about imperfections seem a little silly.

 

[Inverse Skies]

That makes much more sense, and is even sort of an interesting point.

Attaching meaning to such a point is more questionable, however...but that wasn't you, that was the other poster.

It livened up the talk over coffee this morning anyway, and was more interesting than learning about cyclin dependent kinases like we did at most of uni today (sigh).

I suppose the meaning you can attach is... maybe even if you think something is 'random' there are always factors that make it not so and you could potentially predict such factors? Is that my own point I'm trying to make? I don't think we had a point really, I just found it interesting and posted it on here to see what others thought.

I'll have to think about that one actually...

 

[Inverse Skies]

Alot of it is very sensible and scientific, then of coarse it falls into the sand trap if the first and 4 th dimension. There are parts where it just makes you think, why has no-one thought of this before. They believe that chaos (and hence the order of the chaos is infinite in any real world situation), so that no matter how powerful you make a computer, and no matter how refined the calculations it will always lead to further and more abundant (if smaller) bias, errors and chaos.

That is interesting, because it essentially states that no computer can ever produce a random calculation because of the aforementioned problems. That is very cool.

 

[Weaver]

I really want to discuss Selvalros' big long post but I haven't slept in 39 hours so I'm going to bed. I'll try to remember to comment when I'm alive again!

 

[NeutralDrow]

That makes much more sense, and is even sort of an interesting point.

Attaching meaning to such a point is more questionable, however...but that wasn't you, that was the other poster.

It livened up the talk over coffee this morning anyway, and was more interesting than learning about cyclin dependent kinases like we did at most of uni today (sigh).

I suppose the meaning you can attach is... maybe even if you think something is 'random' there are always factors that make it not so and you could potentially predict such factors? Is that my own point I'm trying to make? I don't think we had a point really, I just found it interesting and posted it on here to see what others thought.

I'll have to think about that one actually...

I guess you could make the point that you can make probability swing in your favor...but that's kind of the point of almost any sort of prediction and preparation, which all but the luckiest bastards in humanity have been hinging on for millennia.

Side note: why the hell does Firefox think "millennia" is misspelled? It's the friggin' plural!

 

[Inverse Skies]

I guess you could make the point that you can make probability swing in your favor...but that's kind of the point of almost any sort of prediction and preparation, which all but the luckiest bastards in humanity have been hinging on for millennia.

Side note: why the hell does Firefox think "millennia" is misspelled? It's the friggin' plural!

You could probably make the argument its theoretically possible to make the probability occur in your favour, but extremely unlikely to ever happen because of the tiny differences involved.

 

[Inverse Skies]

Oh, well random events in computers are based off of a set of algorithms, which are 'randomly' selected by another algorithm (at least this is what I am led to believe), so yeah, it is impossible for a computer to do anything truly random. Of course none of this really matters because it is random enough that a person without the algorithms would never be able to guess the next step with 100% certainty.

// Sorry, end of thread hijack.

Lol, nothing wrong with a bit of thread-derailing.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I guess you could make the point that you can make probability swing in your favor...but that's kind of the point of almost any sort of prediction and preparation, which all but the luckiest bastards in humanity have been hinging on for millennia.

Side note: why the hell does Firefox think "millennia" is misspelled? It's the friggin' plural!

You could probably make the argument its theoretically possible to make the probability occur in your favour, but extremely unlikely to ever happen because of the tiny differences involved.

I think we're in another definition conflict. It's absolutely possible to make probability occur in one's favor. For example, routine maintenance makes it far less likely for one's car to break down. It might not be possible to measure perfectly the probability of such a situation, due to the unpredictability of overlooking problems or getting in an accident. Even in those cases, though, one can compensate and raise the odds by meticulous inspection, defensive driving, avoiding high-risk areas...

I'd almost want to argue the opposite of the thread title: nothing is ever truly certain (though some things may as well be, for all practical purposes).

 

[Inverse Skies]

I think we're in another definition conflict. It's absolutely possible to make probability occur in one's favor. For example, routine maintenance makes it far less likely for one's car to break down. It might not be possible to measure perfectly the probability of such a situation, due to the unpredictability of overlooking problems or getting in an accident. Even in those cases, though, one can compensate and raise the odds by meticulous inspection, defensive driving, avoiding high-risk areas...

I'd almost want to argue the opposite of the thread title: nothing is ever truly certain (though some things may as well be, for all practical purposes).

I was more talking about gambling say on a craps table or something, but yes I get your point. You could very well argue the nothing is certain point... I'd just say death though (but is death truly the end? Oh the mind reels with the possibilites!) and then we're back to religion, and there's been too much of that already on these forums. Lets leave that point, what do you say?

 

[NeutralDrow]

I think we're in another definition conflict. It's absolutely possible to make probability occur in one's favor. For example, routine maintenance makes it far less likely for one's car to break down. It might not be possible to measure perfectly the probability of such a situation, due to the unpredictability of overlooking problems or getting in an accident. Even in those cases, though, one can compensate and raise the odds by meticulous inspection, defensive driving, avoiding high-risk areas...

I'd almost want to argue the opposite of the thread title: nothing is ever truly certain (though some things may as well be, for all practical purposes).

I was more talking about gambling say on a craps table or something, but yes I get your point. You could very well argue the nothing is certain point... I'd just say death though (but is death truly the end? Oh the mind reels with the possibilites!) and then we're back to religion, and there's been too much of that already on these forums. Lets leave that point, what do you say?

Fair enough. Good show!

 

[traceur_]

this is random

 

[PureChaos]

Everything Happens for a Reason
Been my motto for a long long time.

that depends. do you mean that in a 'it happened because it was always meant to, fate kind of thing' or 'event A was influenced by variable B, like a door slamming due to wind'?

 

[Flushfacker]

Does this mean that all the times I won/lost at poker, it wasn't due to any skill on my part and just luck of the un-random draw. Or was it always supposed to happen? :S