Now You Too Can Mimic the Best Street Fighter Ever

Dfskelleton

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Great! Another Street Fighter that I can suck at!
I love Street Fighter, but it's just so damn hard!
Captcha was "POWER-LAW oicalle" Does that sound ridiculously basses to anyone else?
 

Therumancer

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To be entirely honest I've always wondered about the oversight in tournaments like this. When your looking at a series of moves that a key game designer cannot pull off themselves (like those parries) it definatly has me wondering about the validity of some of these feats. I'm not just talking about fighting games either, but also RTS games and the like.

It's sort of like how in poker you wind up with shills and proposition players who wind up working for the house, and not gambling with their own money (or with their own funds in very specific circumstances), given a free hand to cheat, and other things, in order to control the outcome of tournaments and limit the amount of money that actually leaves the venue.

The trick here of course is that for these guys to work, they can't seem like shills or props, they have to be seen as legitimate, and years can go into building up these identities, all over the world. People being able to say "I know player X, and there is no way that he's a Shill, I've met him, seen him all over the world!" is exactly the point.

Whether it's a fighting game tournament, an RTS competition, or whatever else, I constantly wind up wondering if the guys putting up the money modified the software and only told their guy on how to exploit it, to make it look legit. Sure cheaters are punished, but that isn't nessicarly going to apply to their cheaters that they are setting up. I've wondered what would happen if wins were made contingent on a third, unrelated, party going through the
code after the conclusion of the actual matches. Say having the tournament, declaring a winner, but not considering it an actual victory until a week later when experts have
gone through the game line by line.

Nothing specific about Daigo (or Justin Wong) other than the simple point that when one of the game developers can't emulate a specific set of moves under ideal conditions, it's enough to bring my suspicians about E-sports to the forefront.

I'll also say that over the years I've heard a lot of criticism over events like Pokemon that are largely dominated by The Japanese or Koreans. Nothing has ever been proven of course, but there does seem to be an undercurrent of national pride, combined with some
shady accusations here and there about things being loaded to keep them on top, with only enough exceptions to give the veneer of legitimacy. Before anyone comments I am not saying I entirely believe this since I'm not interested enough to really dig into it to form a solid opinion, but it's another general situation where again I think we need to see more oversight.

See E-sports and Geek events (collectible card game tournies, etc...) especially the former, have a lot of potential. I could see this becoming a big thing like pro-sports in general, with the gaming industry having the potential to become like sports franchises and big hollywood studios wrapped together. One of the big problems though is that mostly these kinds of things tend to be set up as promotional events, and I don't think there are enough watchdogs with their eyes on things, especially looking towards the companies and hosts. People seem to be too focused on the novelty of there being tournaments with purses attached, to look at the big picture the way people do with other competitions. Among other things I think the gaming industry needs to move away from product promotion with these things, and take a long term view of what E-sports can be (ie capitolizing on them once they become legitimate, rather than trying to use them for short term press and promotional value), and one of the first steps there is to get third parties involved for oversight. As odd as it sounds, companies like Nintendo have too much direct control over things like the official Pokemon tournaments for them to ever be taken seriously (above and beyond the obvious) the way they are run means that there are always going to be doubts. The same can be said about official street fighter tournaments and such, with Capcom having no real neutral accountability.
 

Kurokami

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If I was the other player in a game like that, I'm not sure whether I would rage and punch the other guy in the face or want to shake his hand. Actually, both is a safe bet. (Of course I wouldn't get a chance to shake his hand as he'd parry my first blow and kick my ass)
 

Kurokami

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SageRuffin said:
Dude, "got what he deserved" my ass. Marn is no slouch. It just so happened that Combofiend is a beast at MvC3. Case in point:


And Justin Wong is no pushover in any game he plays.
Holy crap at that bit where the guy nearly takes out two of the characters at one time. Also, I swear Taskmaster said "Shut the **** up!" at one point.

Cool video.
 

JochemDude

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Oke, was gonna be like how's that difficult, then my girlfriend walks in and she see's me typing. She's all like WTF dude, so I ask her 'oh yeah, on a scale of 1 to 10, how hard can that be?' Over 9000 she said.

My respects to their Street Fighter skills, I'll beat their asses in real life though :)
 

SageRuffin

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JochemDude said:
Oke, was gonna be like how's that difficult, then my girlfriend walks in and she see's me typing. She's all like WTF dude, so I ask her 'oh yeah, on a scale of 1 to 10, how hard can that be?' Over 9000 she said.

No worry's I beat them in real life so, whatever :)
You can beat pro fighting game players, huh? What handle do you go by, if any, what tourneys do you frequent, and what's the highest you managed to place?
 

JochemDude

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SageRuffin said:
JochemDude said:
Oke, was gonna be like how's that difficult, then my girlfriend walks in and she see's me typing. She's all like WTF dude, so I ask her 'oh yeah, on a scale of 1 to 10, how hard can that be?' Over 9000 she said.

No worry's I beat them in real life so, whatever :)
You can beat pro fighting game players, huh? What handle do you go by, if any, what tourneys do you frequent, and what's the highest you managed to place?
Huh? No I meant, 'real' real life fighting. Not street fighter, it isn't like I get any further in these games as button mashing. That's why I edit that post to make it sound less cocky
 

StriderShinryu

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SageRuffin said:
StriderShinryu said:
Oh, certainly. Despite the appearance in that video, SF3 never really was Daigo's game. Especially in those days, though, he was one of very few players to actually travel to fight at tournaments. Look at the recent Shadowloo tourney in Australia where almost the entire top finihers for pretty much every game were exclusively Japanese, or even the two recent US tournaments where Japan dominated at both Marvel and AE.
You're absolutely right - in fact, I recall an interview from Justin Wong saying that the only reason he played was to increase American player participation as he wasn't too fond of the game himself.

But Japan smashing other countries in [insert fighting game here] isn't new with the rare exceptions of MvC2, possibly the Soul series, and MK (for obvious reasons). Keep in mind that a lot of games release in Japan for what could be years in advance before reaching other parts of the world. At that point, there's a good chance Japanese players have found a good many tricks that they may or may not be willing to share with outsiders like you and me.

Daigo's supposed to competing in MvC3 at this year's Evo. Him vs Combofiend is gonna make headlines if it happens.

Observation: Jacked up the quote. My bad.
Daigo was solid but not overly impressive at MvC3 at Norcal (if you can consider getting top 8 at a major unimpressive, heh).. but that was also the first major (and first international) appearance he made for MvC3. Knowing what kind of "start" he had and knowing that he's now training directly with the rest of the beastly MadCatz team makes me fear for anyone any of them play at Evo this year. Marvel 2 was pretty much always America's Game but I think they're going to be in very tough this year. I'm not really a huge Marvel fan, but considering the likely parade of Yun's we'll see in AE this year, Marvel's definitely the game I'm watching this year.
 

StriderShinryu

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Therumancer said:
To be entirely honest I've always wondered about the oversight in tournaments like this. When your looking at a series of moves that a key game designer cannot pull off themselves (like those parries) it definatly has me wondering about the validity of some of these feats. I'm not just talking about fighting games either, but also RTS games and the like.


.. Snippity ...
It's really not fair to say that Capcom employees themselves can't do what Daigo did on a technical level. Despite what some of the posters here say, that sort of thing could be practiced in the home version (or Arcade version, I guess, if you were token rich) of the game and every super is fairly easy to parry if you do practice it enough. Heck, I'm terrible at parrying in SF3 and even I could parry a handful of the most common multi hit moves without a ton of practice. The real magic in what Daigo did wasn't parrying the super, it was really making that sort of mental comeback and executing it (including the max damage combo at the end of the parry) on that sort of stage under that sort of pressure. If you watch the video you can see Daigo coming back and getting Justin to the point where he felt he had to try the super in the first place. You can see Daigo baiting Justin with forward taps that could also double as parry inputs depending on the timing of the super. Put simply, Daigo had gone a long way towards winning that round mentally before Justin even activated his super move.

All that said, there are definitely a few tricks that slip into every fighting game that the developers just don't intend to be there. That's why they design systems like scaling hit stun decay, gravity increasing and even things as simple as combo damage scaling. They realize that enough really dedicated players with enough time on their hands will find ways to "break" the game far more than their internal testers ever could. That's also why most major fighting games these days are developed with repeated testing by known tournament level players, including bringing beta versions of the game out to events like Evo and E3. Besides, it's often the stuff that leaks through testing that ends up making the game what it is. MvC2 is often lauded as being as fun as it is because it's as broken as it is, and "combos" in Street Fighter 2 were actually unintentional glitches in the system that didn't receive official recognition until the combo gaage was added in the Super edition of the game.
 

SageRuffin

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JochemDude said:
Huh? No I meant, 'real' real life fighting. Not street fighter, it isn't like I get any further in these games as button mashing. That's why I edit that post to make it sound less cocky
Ah, now I see. I dunno... you know what they say about making assumptions about people you don't know. Suppose either of those guys are 3rd degree black belts in... I dunno, Shotokan Karate or something?

But it's a non-issue really. Ergo, there's no need nor point in answering.

StriderShinryu said:
Daigo was solid but not overly impressive at MvC3 at Norcal (if you can consider getting top 8 at a major unimpressive, heh).. but that was also the first major (and first international) appearance he made for MvC3. Knowing what kind of "start" he had and knowing that he's now training directly with the rest of the beastly MadCatz team makes me fear for anyone any of them play at Evo this year. Marvel 2 was pretty much always America's Game but I think they're going to be in very tough this year. I'm not really a huge Marvel fan, but considering the likely parade of Yun's we'll see in AE this year, Marvel's definitely the game I'm watching this year.
What place did he get exactly, do you know? Getting Top 8 at a major is no small feat of course, but I'm curious regardless.

And I too stopped caring about anything SF4-related. I'll watch the occasional pro match, but that's about it. I'm looking forward to seeing if Daigo and Combofiend square off in MvC3 at Evo. Hopefully the con I'm going to that same weekend (way on the other side of the country) has somewhere that can broadcast Evo.
 

StriderShinryu

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SageRuffin said:
StriderShinryu said:
Daigo was solid but not overly impressive at MvC3 at Norcal (if you can consider getting top 8 at a major unimpressive, heh).. but that was also the first major (and first international) appearance he made for MvC3. Knowing what kind of "start" he had and knowing that he's now training directly with the rest of the beastly MadCatz team makes me fear for anyone any of them play at Evo this year. Marvel 2 was pretty much always America's Game but I think they're going to be in very tough this year. I'm not really a huge Marvel fan, but considering the likely parade of Yun's we'll see in AE this year, Marvel's definitely the game I'm watching this year.
What place did he get exactly, do you know? Getting Top 8 at a major is no small feat of course, but I'm curious regardless.

And I too stopped caring about anything SF4-related. I'll watch the occasional pro match, but that's about it. I'm looking forward to seeing if Daigo and Combofiend square off in MvC3 at Evo. Hopefully the con I'm going to that same weekend (way on the other side of the country) has somewhere that can broadcast Evo.
Tied for 7th/8th. Here's the Top 8 Matches. You can see pretty clearly that Daigo's got chops at the game, but he actually drops some major combos and looks a little more like he's more used to the Lab than actual live gameplay.

http://shoryuken.com/2011/06/28/ncr9-mvc3-top-8-matches/
 

SageRuffin

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StriderShinryu said:
Tied for 7th/8th. Here's the Top 8 Matches. You can see pretty clearly that Daigo's got chops at the game, but he actually drops some major combos and looks a little more like he's more used to the Lab than actual live gameplay.

http://shoryuken.com/2011/06/28/ncr9-mvc3-top-8-matches/
Sweet. I can hold my ME retconning for this.

Thanks. :D

Addendum: That was fucking awesome. I love those commentators: "Lemme squeeze them buns, honey! YOU ARE DELICIOUS!" Fucking hilarious. XD
 

4173

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StriderShinryu said:
SageRuffin said:
StriderShinryu said:
Daigo was solid but not overly impressive at MvC3 at Norcal (if you can consider getting top 8 at a major unimpressive, heh).. but that was also the first major (and first international) appearance he made for MvC3. Knowing what kind of "start" he had and knowing that he's now training directly with the rest of the beastly MadCatz team makes me fear for anyone any of them play at Evo this year. Marvel 2 was pretty much always America's Game but I think they're going to be in very tough this year. I'm not really a huge Marvel fan, but considering the likely parade of Yun's we'll see in AE this year, Marvel's definitely the game I'm watching this year.
What place did he get exactly, do you know? Getting Top 8 at a major is no small feat of course, but I'm curious regardless.

And I too stopped caring about anything SF4-related. I'll watch the occasional pro match, but that's about it. I'm looking forward to seeing if Daigo and Combofiend square off in MvC3 at Evo. Hopefully the con I'm going to that same weekend (way on the other side of the country) has somewhere that can broadcast Evo.
Tied for 7th/8th. Here's the Top 8 Matches. You can see pretty clearly that Daigo's got chops at the game, but he actually drops some major combos and looks a little more like he's more used to the Lab than actual live gameplay.

http://shoryuken.com/2011/06/28/ncr9-mvc3-top-8-matches/
I have practically no idea what is going on, but man are those things fun to watch.
 

FinalHeart95

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My friend is huge into fighters, and he kicks my ass at them ALL THE TIME. It's pretty pathetic. In the new Mortal Kombat I've won possibly two rounds at different times. Not even a match, a round. Either I really, really suck (which I probably do), or he is just good. But to say this genre is just one for "button mashing" is doing a lot of disrespect to the good man in the video in the OP. That was some pretty damn lucky button mashing if that's what it was.

So, yeah, I probably won't get this. As I said, I suck at fighters. The only ones I have are the Smash Bros. games and Soul Calibur IV. I'm okay with Kilik... the most rigged character in the game.
 

StriderShinryu

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FinalHeart95 said:
My friend is huge into fighters, and he kicks my ass at them ALL THE TIME. It's pretty pathetic. In the new Mortal Kombat I've won possibly two rounds at different times. Not even a match, a round. Either I really, really suck (which I probably do), or he is just good. But to say this genre is just one for "button mashing" is doing a lot of disrespect to the good man in the video in the OP. That was some pretty damn lucky button mashing if that's what it was.

So, yeah, I probably won't get this. As I said, I suck at fighters. The only ones I have are the Smash Bros. games and Soul Calibur IV. I'm okay with Kilik... the most rigged character in the game.
I know it was something of a phetorical statement, but since there seems to be some misunderstandings in this thread, I'll just say that it's definitely not mashing.

The window for a parry (the blue flash of perfect defense you see) is, if I recall correctly, a 6 frame input and the game runs at 60 fps. So the first parry has to be done within 1/10th of a second of the first hit (but before the first active hitting frame of the move). Each hit after the first will then be on very specific timing that is different for every hit of every move. This is why it's fairly easy to parry something like a multiple hit fireball where each hit hits with the same timing but something like Chun's super that has a few different timing periods can be very difficult. If Daigo had mistimed just one input in that parry string he would have been hit and killed (and he couldn't block the super at all because he didn't have enough life left to live through the chip damage caused by each of the many hits of Chun's super). It's basically a system that is the total opposite of anything to do with mashing.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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SageRuffin said:
Krunkcity3000 said:
Gigaguy64 said:
Want.
Want with the force of a thousand suns.
And i love the idea for Training mode.
Seams like it will give the player some inspiration for their on styles imo.

And man i do love comebacks like that.
Especially if the person is at a character disadvantage.
LOL, that Magneto-Sentinel user got what he deserved.
Dude, "got what he deserved" my ass. Marn is no slouch. It just so happened that Combofiend is a beast at MvC3. Case in point:


And Justin Wong is no pushover in any game he plays.
Indeed, but he is kind of an asshole from what I understand (though it is karmic that he's best known as the guy who was using top-tier and had Daigo hanging by a thread and STILL LOST). Daigo, as far the Street Fighter series, is well...dear Buddha. He is a bit cocky when it comes to his passion, but it is said he's surprisingly humble despite his talents
 

SageRuffin

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Aiddon said:
Indeed, but he is kind of an asshole from what I understand (though it is karmic that he's best known as the guy who was using top-tier and had Daigo hanging by a thread and STILL LOST). Daigo, as far the Street Fighter series, is well...dear Buddha. He is a bit cocky when it comes to his passion, but it is said he's surprisingly humble despite his talents
As far as Marn is concerned I wouldn;t know too much about that. Daigo, however... I feel his videos where he "sends a message to American players" are unnecessary.
 

Polarix

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Man I tell you what that video is still unbeliveable even to this day. Parrying in itself isn't easy to pull off and for Daigo to parry the entire combo with just a fraction of health remaining and win the fight in the end is just godly. I tell you what moments like that are what makes fighting game tournaments just a blast to watch.

Besides the video, I can't wait for Street Fighter 3 Online Edition. I didn't actually play the the first two editions back when they were first realeased for the arcades but I played the 3rd Strike when it was ported to Street Fighter Aniversary Collection for the PS2 and absolutely loved it. To this day I think that it is one of the best Street Fighter's, so I'm definately looking forward to getting this when it's released on PSN in August since all the new features look like they could really improve the experience overall.

Also looking at your avatar Sage made me think that wouldn't it be funny to have Shaq Fu played at the next EVO. I think it would be hilarious to see the world's top competitors face off against each other in such an unbalanced fighting game.