NY Woman to Become Fire Fighter Without Passing Physical Exam

[bartholen_v1legacy]

I've heard Copout to be a shitty movie, but it at least provided us with this wonderfully useful clip:


Fuck. This. Shit. If this is the way the world is heading, it's time to burn Tumblr to the ground and never let its echo chamber of mouth-frothing lunatics rise again. Seriously, this is fucking appalling. No amount of whining about sexism, white privilege or whatever is the buzzword of the day is, is going to fix the fact that we now can graduate people who are by definition unfit to do their job.

As if this wasn't enough, just moments ago I saw this article [http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/man-68-faces-rape-charges-after-posing-as-model-for-fifty-shades-of-grey-dates-31198049.html] about a 68-year old man who'd coaxed women into Fifty Shades of Grey -inspired sex while posing as a dashing model, with total consent from his partners. He is now faced with multiple charges of rape because oh no, the impossibly gorgeous model who promised to be the knight of your dreams didn't actually turn out to be that. The guy's a scumbag, definitely, but a rapist? Fuck off, if the women had kept the blindfold on all the time, I bet they would have been perfectly happy.

 

[Kevlar Eater]

As if this wasn't enough, just moments ago I saw this article [http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/man-68-faces-rape-charges-after-posing-as-model-for-fifty-shades-of-grey-dates-31198049.html] about a 68-year old man who'd coaxed women into Fifty Shades of Grey -inspired sex while posing as a dashing model, with total consent from his partners. He is now faced with multiple charges of rape because oh no, the impossibly gorgeous model who promised to be the knight of your dreams didn't actually turn out to be that. The guy's a scumbag, definitely, but a rapist? Fuck off, if the women had kept the blindfold on all the time, I bet they would have been perfectly happy.

It's only rape when the man is unattractive. Take 50 Shades-esque sex out of the equation and insert a drunken hoop-up in a nightclub (where *both* parties were shitfaced), and a very similar article can be written up in moments.

*topic* I see this setting a bad precedent for future and probably present female firefighters (say that three times fast) elsewhere besides New York. Must I worry if the firefighters of tomorrow will be capable of picking up my body should the need arise, or should I worry about lack of gender diversity in this physically demanding occupation?

 

[2HF]

As if this wasn't enough, just moments ago I saw this article [http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/man-68-faces-rape-charges-after-posing-as-model-for-fifty-shades-of-grey-dates-31198049.html] about a 68-year old man who'd coaxed women into Fifty Shades of Grey -inspired sex while posing as a dashing model, with total consent from his partners. He is now faced with multiple charges of rape because oh no, the impossibly gorgeous model who promised to be the knight of your dreams didn't actually turn out to be that. The guy's a scumbag, definitely, but a rapist? Fuck off, if the women had kept the blindfold on all the time, I bet they would have been perfectly happy.

The women consented to sex with the gorgeous model. Not with the 68 year old man. He had no consent. He raped them. There is no grey area here.

 

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

At least those people burning to death will know there's a bit more equality in the world.

Quite the opposite: the test was already egalitarian, setting standards that needed to be met regardless of gender; what happened here is that just for the sake of "diversity" (never was a word more twisted) they are forgoing ACTUAL equality.

All this political correctness offends me a great deal.

 

[sageoftruth]

I thought this seemed too ridiculous to be true. It mostly is true, but apparently the test requirements have been lowered not just for her but also for all future applicants. Of course, I don't know how I feel about lowering the standards for the test. Apparently they had previously required you to pass the physical test, but now it comes down to what your average is between the physical and the academic tests. Because she excelled academically, she passed in the new system. It still sounds a bit questionable, given how physically demanding firefighting is.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

No. Just freakin' no.

If you cannot handle the physical demands of your life-threatening and life-saving job, you cannot be allowed to DO that job.

She did super well on the knowledge part, so I'm cool with her running support for firefighters (running communications, etc). But just like I, a wiry thin unhealthy nerd guy, am not physically capable of running into a burning building with 50 pounds of equipment and shouldn't get the job, she shouldn't either.

If you can't handle the physical aspect and risk dying or not being able to save someone, you should not get the job. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. I'm all for equality, but if you can't physically do the job, you don't get the job.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Man, everyone sure is being sexist about this. Obviously, the physical requirements are just another symptom of the patriarchy and like the patriarchy they must be dismantled. You can only have true equality is when some people are more equal than others. If a woman or minority can't meet the qualifications of something a straight white male can then obviously we must lower to standards for them to make them more equal, Equality 101.

Who are you arguing with? Who is everyone? The reaction I'm reading to this is overwhelming confusion and scorn.

I remember this exact issue coming up about 20+ years ago, this question of "should a woman be a firefighter if she cannot meet the rigorous physical requirements for the job". I can't imagine what school of argument would be used to support "yes". I'm all for breaking glass ceilings, but this is a life and death job. Her life is at risk, her co-workers lives are at risk, the people they are tasked to serve...their lives are at risk.

Silly.

 

[Stu35]

That said, all the women that are on the force passed the physical exam.

And now every single one of them is going to be taken that bit less seriously by some of their peers.

A lot of hard earned respect goes down the shitter when people not up to scratch are let in - unfortunately Women are not judged on an individual basis but against their Gender, so people who were against Women in the Fire Department get a little bit of ammunition to support their claims.

You see the same thing in the Armed Forces - here in Britain women are literally held to a lower physical standard than men which makes it that much harder for those who are up to the standards to gain the respect they've earned.

 

[thewatergamer]

*sigh* Exactly what I was afraid of, I can't wait for the explanation when she or someone she is trying to help dies horribly because of her lack of strength

 

[Denamic]

The physical requirements are there for a fucking reason. People's lives are at stake; firefighters HAVE to be physically fit.

 

[THM]

The women consented to sex with the gorgeous model. Not with the 68 year old man. He had no consent. He raped them. There is no grey area here.

Just to confirm - you're being serious, right? Yes, it's fraudulent, but c'mon - if they'd been thinking clearly, they would've realised how unlikely the scenario actually was in the first place, and how unlikely it was really going to be a 'gorgeous model' pleasuring them. The man should be censured for tricking them, but the women should've exercised greater forethought. It's not like there aren't enough jokes about the differences between what a man thinks a woman on a sex chat line (for example) looks like, and what she actually looks like, for women to realise that this kind of discrepancy might apply to them, too.

OT - There are no words for this. And the sad thing is, even deaths that happen because of this won't improve the situation, because echo chambers. Ugh. :/

Then again, you never know what the backlash will accomplish.

 

[Bix96]

Well you know something is EXTREMELY wrong when everyone on this forum is in agreement... that has like never happened before.

EVER!

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The only honorable way out of this for her personally is to resign in protest or refuse the position, because otherwise this is just going to be a fucking noose around her neck, her team's necks, and any poor sod they are charged with rescuing.

This is a terrible idea.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

And here I thought hospitals hiring nurses with hemophobia some time in the future was a cheap joke from Kingdom Hospital.

Thanks USA, you have proven to me that you can be whatever you want in life no matter if you meet the requirements or not as long as you are a necessity to meet the diversity quota, other people's life be damned.

Everyone wins.

Except perhaps the person who dies or the house that burns because she couldn't keep up. But lets face it, that's unlikely.

Yes man, I mean how likely it is that someone will die in a city with 26,531 structural fires reported last year [http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/stats/2014/fire/cw/fire_cwsum_cy14.pdf], I mean that's only what? 72 fires A DAY?! But who cares about that, all that matters is that everyone wins amiright?

I find it extremely unlikely that a situation will come up where she was unable to save someone when someone who did pass the exam would have been able to.
How of those fires was someone saved by a firefighter?
How many of those rescues would have been impossible for someone who couldn't pass the exam?

I'm going to bet its not quite 72 a day. Or 72 ever. And to be perfectly honest I'd prefer someone under qualified to be there to save me than nobody at all. Probably just me though.

 

[Ishigami]

Not surprised in the slightest.
Isn?t there are also a process going to get more or at least some women at all into army special forces?
I think their proposed plan is or was to lower the standards of the physical test? obviously?
So yea not surprised.

I think I will gain some weight and sue my way into a physically demanding job using anti-discrimination laws? common fat shaming really? ? You guys are so oppressive!

 

[Gengisgame]

I find it extremely unlikely that a situation will come up where she was unable to save someone when someone who did pass the exam would have been able to.
How of those fires was someone saved by a firefighter?
How many of those rescues would have been impossible for someone who couldn't pass the exam?

I'm going to bet its not quite 72 a day. Or 72 ever. And to be perfectly honest I'd prefer someone under qualified to be there to save me than nobody at all. Probably just me though.

Your wording this as if there is a shortage of potential applicants and they needed to lower the bar, although a more sensible option would be to promote the service.

A person less qualified will be the one attempting to rescue you because they want more poster women in the firefighting service, it's clearly not a case of them turning away capable women for being women if they need to hire those less capable.

 

[CrystalShadow]

It's dumb, and dangerous. But I can see why it happens.

The thing is, the research suggests that women may have a harder time with this, but they should still be able to do it...
Lowering the bar is fine if the job doesn't really require it, but in an area where physical fitness is critical, this is counterproductive, and really, kind of insulting.

Anyway... Last research I read on the topic of physical difference between men and women showed that amongst trained athletes with similar levels of training, men were indeed on average stronger, BUT, this difference became almost non-existent (less than 2% difference) if you controlled for bodytype/size.

Meaning, if you want to avoid setting up gendered events (in say, sports), define categories by size/bodytype, and it should be more or less fair.
This would still mostly result in women competing against other women, and men against other men, but there will be a small group where there is overlap...
No need to define it by a person's sex, and you still give people a reasonable chance...

That has nothing to do with a job like this though. If you're not strong enough to do it, you getting the job anyway is a liability that could get people killed.
That's not OK...

 

[LordLundar]

I find it extremely unlikely that a situation will come up where she was unable to save someone when someone who did pass the exam would have been able to.
How of those fires was someone saved by a firefighter?
How many of those rescues would have been impossible for someone who couldn't pass the exam?

I'm going to bet its not quite 72 a day. Or 72 ever. And to be perfectly honest I'd prefer someone under qualified to be there to save me than nobody at all. Probably just me though.

Actually the count would be 72 because it's not just a matter of dragging unconscious bodies around. There's still dragging around fire hoses and being able to keep them under control when in use. In fact, there is not a single aspect of fighting a fire that is NOT physically demanding. Hell, just wearing the outfit means roughly 45 additional pounds and that's before any equipment is applied.

 

[Ariseishirou]

This is really annoying. Especially since there already are 40 other women who passed, including other women in her own graduating class. Accept that you failed, eat some oats and hit the gym, come back stronger next year, same as any man who failed.

Though rest assured: no one hates her right now more than those other 40 women. I remember one girl in my PE class whinging and wheedling that the pull-up requirement be dropped to get a perfect score on our fitness test, because "girls can't do pull-ups" so the test was "sexist." *****, I can do ten. Admit that you, personally, can't hack it, stop looking for excuses, and shape up.

 

[Snotnarok]

Good to know we're pushing for gender bias over the ability to perform the job adequately.

Had this argument recently, the person insisting that because women are genetically predisposed to be less strong than men they should skew the tests to make it "give them more equal chance".

To which I respond, no, that's dumb. You need to be able to perform certain physical prowess to be able to do difficult tasks, like haul a 200lbs unconscious person out of a building ...that's on fire. If you can't do such a thing you're NOT fit to do the job and that's regardless of gender. If you're 100 pounds and tiny, you're PROBABLY not a good fit for the FD.

Totally okay with women being fire fighters, I really don't care who's carrying my dumbass out of a burning building but I don't want them to be LITERALLY dragging me through fires across the floor by my ankle. I want them to be strong, tall, able....sounds like I'm asking for something totally different there.