Official Discussion about the new Forum Rules

[Claymorez]

Seems it's the popular thing right now to demand some clarity, so I'm here to get my share. I really only have one question: What's the guideline for disagreeing and arguments?

Based off my expereince with our moderators and the fact that our number one guideline Don't be a jerk. supposedly trumps all other rules, I'm going to assume that I can still openly state that I think somebody on here's wrong about something, even if that someone is in whatever way or form connected to The Escapist (Moderators, Contributors, Yahtzee), long as I show a modicum of restraint plus a basic level of respect and make sure I clarify that I'm attacking an opinion and not the human being behind it. Quite obviously we can't stop disagreeing (would make discussion a bit awkward), so I'm really only curious as to where you draw the line between negativity and negativity for negativity's sake. Case in point, while I'm hardly an aggravating presence or short-tempered by any definition, I have gotten in some [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.178144-Poll-Do-you-agree-with-a-public-smoking-ban-Searchbar-approved?page=3#6446132] arguments [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.178144-Poll-Do-you-agree-with-a-public-smoking-ban-Searchbar-approved?page=3#6451250] and would appreciate a perspective on whether or not I need to change something about the way I handle these. At any rate it would be intereting to hear if my profanity-free, apologetic attitude towards such events is actually as calming and respectful as I'd like to believe or if I come off as smug.

I would clarify negativity for negativities sake as something like slacking off/insulting a person for no reason other then a posters own personal amusement. Expressing a negative opinion and expressing it in an un-necessarily over the top manner are very different things e.g. "I dislike this" and "WTF X has no F**ck**g talent! This show is a piece of c**p".

 

[Claymorez]

*snip*

I've asked Kulinai if we can put this up on the thread page of the rules.

[HEADING=2]Welcome to The Escapist forums![/HEADING] [small](The Internet?s version of the Lighthouse of Alexandria [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_of_Alexandria])[/small]
[hr]

[/hr]
[HEADING=1]The Escapist Forum Rules:[/HEADING]

We want our forums to be a place where everyone, regardless of who they are, can gather to socialize and talk with like-minded people in a safe and welcoming environment. In order to make that happen we have certain rules we ask all members of our community to adhere to. These rules will be vigorously enforced so that a handful of bad apples don't spoil it for everyone else.

[HEADING=1]. [/HEADING]

[HEADING=2]Don't Be a Jerk:[/HEADING]

This rule trumps any other. Any loophole you think you've found in any other rule is covered by this one. If you make our forums a less pleasant place to be, we don't want you here.

[HEADING=2]Have Respect for Others:[/HEADING]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to attack others for sharing, or not sharing, that opinion. If you can't communicate without using combative, aggressive, or demeaning language, then please keep those comments to yourself, or be shown the door. Deliberately inflammatory threads; posts written with the sole intention of irritating people; attacks toward or inappropriate commentary regarding The Escapist staff, creators, or other posters; or attempts to derail a thread will be removed, as will your forum privileges.

[HEADING=2]Have Respect for the Site and its Content:[/HEADING]

We put a lot of work into the content on the site, and if you've just shown up to trample on that hard work, we will remove your comments and ask you to leave. Constructive criticism is welcomed; negativity for its own sake is not. Further, discussions instructing or otherwise advocating the circumvention of The Escapist's advertisements, security mechanisms, media protections or similar facilities will not be tolerated.

[HEADING=2]Put Some Effort Into Your Communication:[/HEADING]


A well-made thread or a well-written comment engages its audience and facilitates discussion. We do ask that posters take just a little time to make their posts as readable as possible and keep their responses on topic. We also ask that you take a moment to check your spelling and grammar.

[HEADING=2]Use Our Forums Appropriately:[/HEADING]

Our forums are a place to talk with like-minded people, not a place to advertise your blog or YouTube channel. Your profile has a place for such things, and that is where it should stay. Similarly, posts including, advocating, or linking to illegal or adult material are a very quick way to end your time as part of The Escapist community.

[HEADING=1]. [/HEADING]

[HEADING=3]Penalties[/HEADING]

There are no hard and fast rules on what punishment you will receive should you break any of these rules. Instead, we will make the punishment fit the infraction and the individual. We do not enjoy banning people, but we will not hesitate to do so if we think that a person's removal will have an overall positive effect on the community.

Types of wrath:
­

Probation: This is just a warning with no substantive changes to your posting abilities. You will most likely get a Private Message from the moderator that put you on Probation detailing why (so that you know what not to do next time)­

Suspension: These place temporary limitations on a forum member?s posting abilities and last anywhere from 3 days to a month in length.­

Ban: We reserve this for spammers, people who repeatedly and flagrantly ignore the standards established here, and ban jumpers. A ban is permanent.

[HEADING=3]Other:[/HEADING]
[li]Thread Necroing and Thread Duping: We know that our forums have a very high volume of traffic and sometimes you will end up wanting to talk about subjects that are being discussed elsewhere on the forums. To keep thread spam to a minimum, we ask that you try not to start threads in the same board on exactly the same topic as another thread that?s already active that day. We reserve the right to combine, merge, or delete redundant threads where we see this happen. We will ban for thread spamming in a persistent, abusive, or exploitative manner. If you want to have a discussion on a topic that?s been the subject of a past thread, you should generally join in that thread if it?s a live discussion. If that thread has been inactive for a month or more, its good etiquette to start a new thread and link to the old thread if you want to provide it as background information, and we discourage arbitrary bumping. We will ban for thread bumping if and when it is conducted in a persistent, abusive, or exploitative manner.[/li]


[li]PM Spam: If you receive a Personal Message (PM) from someone that is spamming you, either another user or some low-paid spam-marketer, please either report the user that sent your the PM (from their Profile page), or forward the PM directly on to a Moderator.[/li]

[HEADING=1]. [/HEADING]

Getting to Know Your Moderators

Currently, we employ a staff of Escapist editors, programmers and volunteers to communicate with our readers, uphold the forums, keep everything organized and swing the Banhammer in times of need. They are:

[li]Matt Kuliani, our Community Manager[/li]
Susan Arendt, our Senior Editor.
Russ Pitts, our Editor-in-Chief.
Jason "Virgil" Smith, our IT Director.
Jeff "Spinwhiz" Palumbo, our Brand Manager.
[li][user]John Funk[/user], Associate Editor[/li]
wilsonscrazybed, a member of the Red Guard, a community-based Neighborhood Watch.
Logan Westbrook, another proud member of the Red Guard.
[li]Alex_P, another proud member of the Red Guard.[/li]
[li]Labyrinth, the female member of the Red Guard.[/li]
[li]Baby Tea, the Red Guard with the radio voice.[/li]
[li][user]Varchld[/user], Red Guard and the IRC queen and overlord.[/li]
[user]Claymorez[/user], another proud member of the Red Guard.
[user]NewClassic[/user], another proud member of the Red Guard.
[user]Sevre90210[/user], another proud member of the Red Guard.
[user]Zombie_Fish[/user], another proud member of the Red Guard.
[user]ColdStorage[/user], another proud member of the Red Guard.
[user]Aylaine[/user], an Advice Forum moderator.
[user]zombiesinc[/user], an Advice Forum moderator.




Other Fun Stuff

[li]Lord Krunk's Guide to the Forums: The Banhammer and You: A User's Guide to the Forums [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.112832][/li]
Moderation questions. Private Message Kuliani.
Profiles. You can edit yours here. We obviously encourage this, but mainly because our Community section [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/] of the site uses the information contained in the profiles to help you connect with others that agree and play with you.
Titles. They?re based on your post count, unless you are staff, contributors, or other odd people.

Badges. Relax, you?ll get some. Keep a lookout for contests, events, and other fun things that we put together all the time, and you'll have plenty of chances for some of the more rare badges!
Forum markup. You can find documentation on the tags our forums support here. This is how you make your posts look more professional and/or entertaining!
User Groups. Small and large groups of users that share common interests hang out here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/]. They have unique features not found in the forums, especially for forum games and roleplaying. There are official ones (Tech Team [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Tech-Team]), ones for fans (Zero Punctuation Fans [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Zero-Punctuation-Fans]), and user-created ones (The Escapist Team Fortress 2 Group - PC [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/The-Escapist-Team-Fortress-2-Group-PC]) or (The Avatar Store [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/The-Avatar-Store-New-and-Second-Hand]).

 

[technoted]

Well I should probably have read them before I agreed to them, but oh well I don't go round acting like a dick so I should hopefully be fine.

 

[Claymorez]

Thread Drama! [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Thread%20Drama.mp3]
Mod Drama [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Mod%20Drama.mp3]

Just thought I would post this to give not only some amusement to people but the mod drama does give a good example of what is not an acceptable way to express an opinion.

 

[Motiv_]

Thread Drama! [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Thread%20Drama.mp3]
Mod Drama [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Mod%20Drama.mp3]

Just thought I would post this to give not only some amusement to people but the mod drama does give a good example of what is not an acceptable way to express an opinion.

That honestly just made my day. Danke my good man/woman/extra terrestrial.

 

[Augustus Drakken]

I have no problem with showing respect and being curious. I have a problem with getting on my knees to suck the dick of every mod and user that just so happens to visit the site. I don't get in trouble for saying "idiot" on the playground in grade school, I shouldn't here.

At the end of the day, this is the internet. Nut up or shut the fuck up. If you don't like what someone wrote, don't respond. If you disagree, show some respect. If you act like an ass, be prepared to be treated like one.

The site went wrong when it banned all the elder members, who used to show what the true spirit of the site was like. And no amount of rules or mods can change this, the community is shaped by its people, not the mods squad.

And in conclusion, I don't censor myself. I'm fully prepared to take the maximum heat for anything I write. And considering this site draws a lot of strong willed people with strong opinions, its going to be awfully fun to see these new rules try to cope with them.

 

[Broken Orange]

Reading these "QQ"ing of people, I think the people who are complaining are the ones who are the butt munches jerks that are making this an negative place to be.

Thread Drama! [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Thread%20Drama.mp3]
Mod Drama [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Mod%20Drama.mp3]

Just thought I would post this to give not only some amusement to people but the mod drama does give a good example of what is not an acceptable way to express an opinion.

...I love you for that.

 

[Roxas1359]

Thread Drama! [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Thread%20Drama.mp3]
Mod Drama [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1545125/Mod%20Drama.mp3]

Just thought I would post this to give not only some amusement to people but the mod drama does give a good example of what is not an acceptable way to express an opinion.

That just made me laugh so much. Thanks for posting it.
OT: I'm glad that the rules are a bit more clarified for people and hopefully the updated set of rules clarifies some things for users.

 

[Hollock]

cool new rules rule

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

I hope you make the rules a little more streamlined and I hope this means we'll do away with open hostility on here.

So you'd prefer thinly veiled hostility and passive aggression? Alright, whatever you want. Buddy.

To be perfectly honest, that's much better.

Well, eh, not "much", but "fairly".

 

[superbatranger]

I'm a bit confused. Are we no longer allowed to say we don't like a particular show for X and Y reasons? Now, I don't mean berating the show, or insulting the creators or anything like that. For example, saying the plot of a show could use some tweaking in certain scenes, that the dialog could have been written in a way that flows better, that certain characters should have been left out because they didn't provide anything to the overall story, and so on and so forth.

Are we allowed to say anything along those lines? Or do we only have the choices of either saying we like a show, or not saying anything at all? I know that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense(it doesn't make much sense to me, but you'll have to bear with me). I just don't know how to phrase it.

Other than that, I hope these new rules make the site a better place for everyone who is willing to abide by them.

 

[reg42]

So how about I make a post about masturbation, do I get mod wrath?

 

[Virgil]

I'm a bit confused. Are we no longer allowed to say we don't like a particular show for X and Y reasons? Now, I don't mean berating the show, or insulting the creators or anything like that. For example, saying the plot of a show could use some tweaking in certain scenes ....

That is exactly the kind of post that you are allowed to make. Encouraged to, even. Constructive and well thought-out commentary is always welcome. It's only when posts cross the line of being purely negative that they aren't allowed.

With less critical feedback about your service, you have less information about what we want, you're out of touch with the audience ...

You couldn't possibly be more wrong. That's because you're operating from the perspective of a viewer, and not the point of a content producer. We have a vast amount of information available on how content is doing, and we already know exactly how much that doesn't match up with what the comment threads look like. Here's some of the things we know about a video that you don't, for example:


How many views it gets.
How many unique users view it.
How much it costs to produce.
How much it costs to serve, in bandwidth.
How difficult the creator is to work with.
How much work our editors have to do per video.
What advertisers are interested in it.
What "industry" people think of it
How much traffic it gets outside our site (embedding, etc).
How well the ad units in the video perform.
How well the back catalog performs.
How much the staff like it.


Those statistics are far, far more important in determining the success of a show than forum comments. For example, a show that gets moderate traffic numbers but doesn't cost much, gets shared and embedded, pulls in new users, has above-average ad performance stats, and gets industry contacts fired up to work with us is one we'd consider to be doing well for us, and would be worth keeping around, even if the forums complain about it. I'll let you guess what show that was.

We see time and time again that some shows do well and get terrible comments, while other shows do poorly and get great ones. Why is that? Two reasons:


Once a forum thread turns negative, it stays negative, and the people who would say good things stay away to avoid being attacked.
People that complain about serial content frequently come back to do it again for each episode, repeating the cycle.
The people who comment on our forums represent .3% of the people that look at our content. That's not a typo, it's less than half of one percent.


What it comes down to is that the reason we don't need to see negative comments is because we can already see how well things perform based on hard numbers from our whole audience. The only thing the negative comments do is prevent a community of people that enjoy that content from building up around it. Because of that, we don't want them around here.

Like I said in my previous post on the topic: "If someone doesn't like a particular piece of content, they don't have to watch/read it." If you don't like something, accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, it's not for you, and let the other people who do enjoy it do so. If you do enjoy it but think some things could improve, then post away.

From my understanding with a couple of chats with Mods in the past....

Oh yeah I know that a single user can't grief a report but when you have a large group ....

The most that a group could do would be to push a post to the top of the Mod Queue, which would cause a moderator to look at it sooner. If a post doesn't deserve moderation, nothing will happen regardless of how many people report it. Also, we can look and see who reported what if necessary, so if we see a group of users abusing the report system - for example, by systematically reporting every post by a specific user to try to get them banned - they'll be on the receiving end of some mod wrath.

 

[Internet Kraken]

-snip-

So are you actually going to answer my question regarding Escapist content? Becuase it looks like you're just moving around it. I was told to ask questions and give feedback, but it feels like you're answering questions selectively.

 

[Virgil]

So are you actually going to answer my question regarding Escapist content?

I'm pretty sure I addressed it well enough in my response [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.249417.9222422] to John. The rules for content publishers are not the same as for forum posters, and the forum rules do not apply to their content. Yes, we have a double-standard here, and it's totally not fair. It also doesn't change anything.

As for the rest, I think I've covered fairly well why we've determined that there's nothing of value for us or the site in allowing that sort of negativity in the forums. Unless there's a new or particularly interesting argument otherwise, I don't think I have anything else to contribute on the subject.

 

[Internet Kraken]

So are you actually going to answer my question regarding Escapist content?

I'm pretty sure I addressed it well enough in my response [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.249417.9222422] to John. The rules for content publishers are not the same as for forum posters, and the forum rules do not apply to their content. Yes, we have a double-standard here, and it's totally not fair. It also doesn't change anything.

I don't see how you can somehow not notice the obvious problem with such a massive double-standard; the community will emulate these people. It's only reasonable to assume that people who like a show will try to replicate what they like about it in their forum posts. You can see people doing that already. If you don't want overbearing negativity on this site, you can't publish shows that derive humor from it. Because people will want to copy that. Expecting people to follow these rules in light of this is absurd.

As for the rest, I think I've covered fairly well why we've determined that there's nothing of value for us or the site in allowing that sort of negativity in the forums. Unless there's a new or particularly interesting argument otherwise, I don't think I have anything else to contribute on the subject.

How about the fact these new draconian laws have made this site feel far more hostile to me than any amount of negativity in a community members post?

Q: Why do we need new rules?

A: Because the forums had been slowly becoming a less inviting place to be. The new rules are in place to provide tools to the mods to allow them to get rid of the jerks and keep you nice people!

Judging from this, the ultimate objective of these rules was to make the Escapist a more pleasant and friendly place. I'm going to give you a benefit of the doubt and assume this truly is your primary objective.

As someone who has used this site for over a year now, I have never felt more unwanted and unwelcome than I do now. The idea that merely expressing my honest opinion can earn me a ban just because it's negative is very uncomfortable. It makes me feel nervous about actually posting something, because it feels like a mod will be able to ban me because they don't like my opinion. You could say that's not what will happen, but this is the impression I have gotten. It hasn't done anything to make posting here more enjoyable.

I'm not opposed to punishing people when they are pointlessly cruel or rude, but the idea that just your opinion, no matter how it is expressed, can get you in trouble now is not what I would call "inviting". I've never felt that other members posting negative comments made me enjoy any of this sites comments any less. Just because they don't like something doesn't mean I still can't enjoy it. But the idea that mods will now be actively seeking to ban these people just for expressing their opinions is making me enjoy this site much less.

How many views it gets.
How many unique users view it.
How much it costs to produce.
How much it costs to serve, in bandwidth.
How difficult the creator is to work with.
How much work our editors have to do per video.
What advertisers are interested in it.
What "industry" people think of it
How much traffic it gets outside our site (embedding, etc).
How well the ad units in the video perform.
How well the back catalog performs.
How much the staff like it.

And this may just be my personal opinion, but if I was contributing content to this site I wouldn't like it if its success was judged solely by what advertisers think of it or how many views it gets. A million views sounds impressive, until you realize that those are just numbers. There's no opinion behind those numbers, other than that your content is worth viewing for some reason. But that reason could be anything. It could be because your content is legitimately good, or it could be because it's so laughably bad that people are viewing it just to mock it. I'd much rather judge the success of my content by the opinions of the community members. Hence why I wouldn't like it if mods ran around banning people for having negative opinions. Words mean a lot more to me than numbers.

 

[Plurralbles]

These vague rules only work because this site has excellent moderation. If any of them were unprofessionals or just complete dicks, we'd all be in trouble.

 

[Sevre]

If this was honestly your objective with these new rules, I'd say you have failed. Because this site looks far less friendly now that I know mods can delete posts and ban people just because they express dislike for certain content on this site. Draconian rules do not create a friendly and happy community.

If Moderators have always had that ability...why would we start now? If I wanted to I could delete every post you've made in this thread, and so could any other member of staff. But we haven't. I could say 'Don't be a Jerk' and ban you. But I don't.

Now I'd like you to explain to me why I don't if I have this omnipotence. Go on using all you've said in this thread, all the fearmongering about the free reign I have to do whatever I want, explain to me why you're still here.

 

[Olrod]

Being unfamiliar with the "old" rules, how have they changed?

 

[Internet Kraken]

If this was honestly your objective with these new rules, I'd say you have failed. Because this site looks far less friendly now that I know mods can delete posts and ban people just because they express dislike for certain content on this site. Draconian rules do not create a friendly and happy community.

If Moderators have always had that ability...why would we start now? If I wanted to I could delete every post you've made in this thread, and so could any other member of staff. But we haven't. I could say 'Don't be a Jerk' and ban you. But I don't.

Now I'd like you to explain to me why I don't if I have this omnipotence. Go on using all you've said in this thread, all the fearmongering about the free reign I have to do whatever I want, explain to me why you're still here.

Because this thread was created for the purpose of giving feedback and listening to complaints? I don't see the point of your question. Of course you could ban anyone you wanted at any time, but people would point out how it was completley unjustified. Which is what banning me for complaining in a threat meant for complaints would be. However, you can now ban people just for being negative about escapist content and, under the new rules, it would be perfectly justified.

I really don't get the point you're trying to make.