oh no, another of THOSE threads!

[userwhoquitthesite]

So, I've been playing Skyrim again like I expect to live forever, and I came to a realization:
Mass Effect fans need to STFU now. I agree, even as a non-fan, that the ending was balls, but at least everything UP TO that point worked.

Skyrim on the other hand is a very fun game ABOUT destroying continuity. Weirdly, for a series that is so lore-heavy, the lore doesn't seem to enter in to the writing much. For instance, in skyrim, the thieves guild have a secret trio of Batmen who's exclusive job it is to protect the cave in which a god manifests her power to the mortal plane. That's all well and good, but they've chosen not to make their post there, in the cave, but rather on the opposite side of the country.
"oh, but they have a magic portal that transports them there!"
Except they don't. If anyone fucks with the shrine and steals the artifact of power, the god becomes unable to do anything other than show up and talk. So the portal disappears. So they are now on the wrong side of the country. Good job.
Then there's the artifact of power itself. Supposedly, its presence in the shrine is what allows the god to affect the mortal plane with her power. But then, if that's true, then why the hell does she herself give it away on so many other occasions? The Daedra are never going to give up power willingly (except clavicus vile, but he's a weird case), and yet apparently nocturnal routinely sacrifices the one object that allows her the ability to affect the world.

Spoiler: then there's the object itself

the skeleton key. According to Skyrim, the Key is not merely a magical lockpick, but rather a tool that can unlock anything. Okay, fair enough. But the problem is, they apparently mean ANYTHING. As long as you can come up with a way to convince yourself it is something to be unlocked, it can be with enough thinking about unlocking. Ancient door which can't be opened without a key? easy. The ability to run harder, faster, longer? Unlock'd! Presumably, with enough positive thinking, unlock the very laws of the universe. Why the hell did mehrunes dagon bother assassinating anyone, when he could just get the magical anything stick?

And the dark brotherhood just doesn't make sense. Okay, so there is only ONE group of assassins left in tamriel, fine. Obviously they only operate in skyrim, right? except they don't. It specifically mentions that they still operate in most of the provinces, with the havewave that they hear about people performing the ritual that used to summon them. This is impossible. Unless they have an incredibly expansive network of spies in every town and hamlet, they aren't going to hear that someone wants them from across the continent. news of a murder (attempted or otherwise) isn't going to spread that far. If they DO have that powerful spy network, they are powerful enough to have other assassin centers besides the one in skyrim.
There are tons of little things throughout the game that either contradict established continuity, or don't make sense with the in game information. Hell, each entry in the series has its own continuity/logical weirdness.

But no one cares, because the games kick ass. So, yeah, mass effect 3 should have had a MUCH better ending, but it didn't. So get over it. At least your game never decided to make every possible ending to the second game canon at once, and let you sort out the mess.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

The problem is the Skeleton Key's powers are kept in check for Nocturnal. No one will be able to unlock the true potential of the key without being disintegrated or something like that. So people just settle for what it is; a master lockpick

 

[Neverhoodian]

Well, you have to consider the following factors:

-Many players view the Elder Scrolls games as a great big sandbox to play as whatever fantasy archetype they can think of. The main draw isn't so much the story for them as it is playing any type of character build they want. After all, what other game allows you to play as a bipedal lizard in hellish Daedric armor while toasting enemies with blasts of lightning from your claws?

-As you pointed out, The Elder Scrolls lore frequently changes from game to game. For example, Daggerfall had dragon hatchlings that you could fight, yet later games stated that dragons had been extinct for centuries (until the events of Skyrim, of course). You could even speak with a "dragon" if certain conditions were met:

(Well okay, it's actually the Daedric lord Peryite, but my point still stands)

Long story short, longtime players have become accustomed to the various retcons within the Elder Scrolls universe. Mass Effect on the other hand had a (mostly) cohesive lore that stayed reasonably constant up until the end.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

And the dark brotherhood just doesn't make sense. Okay, so there is only ONE group of assassins left in tamriel, fine. Obviously they only operate in skyrim, right? except they don't. It specifically mentions that they still operate in most of the provinces, with the havewave that they hear about people performing the ritual that used to summon them. This is impossible. Unless they have an incredibly expansive network of spies in every town and hamlet, they aren't going to hear that someone wants them from across the continent. news of a murder (attempted or otherwise) isn't going to spread that far. If they DO have that powerful spy network, they are powerful enough to have other assassin centers besides the one in skyrim.

This was addressed. The only way they find out is through hearing rumors of someone performing The Black Sacrament. Much like how you did when you found out about the boy in Windhelm. So it takes them a lot longer to actually reach a customer.

 

[Rawne1980]

For example, Daggerfall had dragon hatchlings that you could fight, yet later games stated that dragons had been extinct for centuries

Because they have.

Skyrim is set 500 years after Oblivion which is set in the 3rd era that lasted 433 years (with Daggerfall being set near the start).

So by the time Oblivion came around, Dragons were near enough extinct.

Leap forward 500 years after that and they are all gone.

All the games were not set in the same timeline. No where near in fact.

 

[Neverhoodian]

For example, Daggerfall had dragon hatchlings that you could fight, yet later games stated that dragons had been extinct for centuries

Because they have.

Skyrim is set 500 years after Oblivion which is set in the 3rd era that lasted 433 years (with Daggerfall being set near the start).

So by the time Oblivion came around, Dragons were near enough extinct.

Leap forward 500 years after that and they are all gone.

All the games were not set in the same timeline. No where near in fact.

Yes, I am aware of that. However, I seem to remember reading a book in Morrowind that stated dragons hadn't been seen for centuries. According to the Elder Scrolls timeline, the events in Morrowind took place only ten years after the "Warp in the West."

I'll admit it's been a while since I've played Morrowind though, so I could be mistaken.

 

[Rawne1980]

Yes, I am aware of that. However, I seem to remember reading a book in Morrowind that stated dragons hadn't been seen for centuries. According to the Elder Scrolls timeline, the events in Morrowind took place only ten years after the "Warp in the West."

I'll admit it's been a while since I've played Morrowind though, so I could be mistaken.

Nope, you're quite right there.

Morrowind was only a few years after Daggerfall.

Although it is possible that Dragons just abandoned Morrowind. Hard to tell even with reading up on lore .... so much of it contradicts itself.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

And the dark brotherhood just doesn't make sense. Okay, so there is only ONE group of assassins left in tamriel, fine. Obviously they only operate in skyrim, right? except they don't. It specifically mentions that they still operate in most of the provinces, with the havewave that they hear about people performing the ritual that used to summon them. This is impossible. Unless they have an incredibly expansive network of spies in every town and hamlet, they aren't going to hear that someone wants them from across the continent. news of a murder (attempted or otherwise) isn't going to spread that far. If they DO have that powerful spy network, they are powerful enough to have other assassin centers besides the one in skyrim.

This was addressed. The only way they find out is through hearing rumors of someone performing The Black Sacrament. Much like how you did when you found out about the boy in Windhelm. So it takes them a lot longer to actually reach a customer.

You weren't paying attention. They also say they take contracts OUT OF SKYRIM. News isnt going to travel from say, Hammerfell, that one guy is trying to kill one other guy. People don't find small-time news interesting enough to carry it that far. Not when more people die from war, disease, and banditry. So there is no way they just "hear about it" unless it happens in skyrim, or very, very nearby.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

For example, Daggerfall had dragon hatchlings that you could fight, yet later games stated that dragons had been extinct for centuries

Because they have.

Skyrim is set 500 years after Oblivion which is set in the 3rd era that lasted 433 years (with Daggerfall being set near the start).

So by the time Oblivion came around, Dragons were near enough extinct.

Leap forward 500 years after that and they are all gone.

All the games were not set in the same timeline. No where near in fact.

try 200

besides that, MORROWIND was only a few years after TWITW. Remember, the first four games all happen while the same Uriel Septim is on the throne.

and the third era began when Tiber Septim, he who became Talos, founded the modern empire by unifying all the tamrielic provinces

 

[Austin Howe]

I mean, video games have had shit endings for the most part for 25 years, I don't see why everyone's getting up in arms. I mean fuck, Final Fantasy VII (italics for emphasis and correctness) has a pretty confusing ending. Some of the other best games ever made also have terrible, terrible endings.

 

[Krantos]

Skyrim is set 500 years after Oblivion which is set in the 3rd era that lasted 433 years (with Daggerfall being set near the start).

Dude, your time line is way off.

Arena (the first game in the series) takes place in the 399th year of the 3rd Era. No where near the start.

Daggerfall takes place 18 years later in 417. Morrowind in 427, and Oblivion in 433. All of the first 4 games in the series take place within Uriel Septim VII's lifetime. You could even say they revolve around the ending of the third era.

Skyrim on the other hand takes place 200 years after Oblivion, not 500.


OT: on the matter of Dragons, I think the ones in Daggerfall were called "dragonlings" which are not, contrary to other fiction baby dragons. Dragons in TES are not 'born' per se. Their exact origins are unknown, but discussion with Parthuurnax suggests they were brought into being by Akatosh.

This is likely a retcon.

Personally, I think part of the reason BGS keeps so many things vague (like the dwemer) is so they can do anything with them at a later date.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

The lore of TES has always been more malleable than Mass Effect, as the story isn't the real pull of the games in the same way.

But I agree, as bad as the ending was (and it was really bad) I think we should just move on and let ME3 be added to the list of great games that shit the bed near the end. Everything that can be complained about has been complained about... a lot. With any luck, the extended cut really will add more context and closure, making the ending not so much of an ass-pull. If it doesn't? Well, we can't really expect Bioware to pull everyone back in; all the writers, artists, programmers, VA's etc. to completely redo the ending and give it to us for free. As much as I wish such a thing were possible, it ain't gonna happen guys. We'll just have to make peace with what we've got eventually.

 

[pffh]

For example, Daggerfall had dragon hatchlings that you could fight, yet later games stated that dragons had been extinct for centuries

Because they have.

Skyrim is set 500 years after Oblivion which is set in the 3rd era that lasted 433 years (with Daggerfall being set near the start).

So by the time Oblivion came around, Dragons were near enough extinct.

Leap forward 500 years after that and they are all gone.

All the games were not set in the same timeline. No where near in fact.

Yes, I am aware of that. However, I seem to remember reading a book in Morrowind that stated dragons hadn't been seen for centuries. According to the Elder Scrolls timeline, the events in Morrowind took place only ten years after the "Warp in the West."

I'll admit it's been a while since I've played Morrowind though, so I could be mistaken.

They haven't been seen for centuries in Vvardenfell because the cliff racers killed them all. Morrowind explicitly states that there are red dragons serving in Cyrodiil under the Empire but those are little more intelligent then animals. These dragons are not related to the Aedra dragons you fight in Skyrim and although the Empire claims they are a gift from Akatosh they are most likely imported from Akavir.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Yeah, Skyrim kind of annoyed me with those two quest lines, I really wanted something more in line with Oblivion and Morrowind for that. The Mages guild College of Winterhold was also really irritating because you do jack shit worthy of becoming Archmage. On my first playthrough I actually used daggers and stealth to become the Archmage, there was so little point to it other than a free room and Enithir.

I would have much preferred it if they kept the four guilds as they were and focused more on not making the game monotonous. Cyrodil may have been boring but at least the quests had character; Skyrim is just a generic fantasy world with more environment variety and generic quests.

Fuck this. My Dwarf Fortress is dead after 2 years, I might as well finish Morrowind.

SOLVEmedia: "HBO: describe this brand with any word(s)" Are you fucking for real? Could this be any more money grabbing SOLVEmedia? It isn't an effective spam check in the slightest.

 

[Lunar Templar]

I mean, video games have had shit endings for the most part for 25 years, I don't see why everyone's getting up in arms. I mean fuck, Final Fantasy VII (italics for emphasis and correctness) has a pretty confusing ending. Some of the other best games ever made also have terrible, terrible endings.

PPFF!!!! 8's was worse, WAY worse.

and lets not forget all those NES games that ended with 'good job'

 

[Warachia]

So, yeah, mass effect 3 should have had a MUCH better ending, but it didn't. So get over it. At least your game never decided to make every possible ending to the second game canon at once, and let you sort out the mess.

You do realize that people keep complaining about that ending specifically because people like you post things like this right? I haven't even seen a ME3 thread for a while, and because you posted this you're probably going to get everybody all riled up about it again, it's like telling hornets to shut up by kicking their nest.

 

[renegade7]

And the dark brotherhood just doesn't make sense. Okay, so there is only ONE group of assassins left in tamriel, fine. Obviously they only operate in skyrim, right? except they don't. It specifically mentions that they still operate in most of the provinces, with the havewave that they hear about people performing the ritual that used to summon them. This is impossible. Unless they have an incredibly expansive network of spies in every town and hamlet, they aren't going to hear that someone wants them from across the continent. news of a murder (attempted or otherwise) isn't going to spread that far. If they DO have that powerful spy network, they are powerful enough to have other assassin centers besides the one in skyrim.
There are tons of little things throughout the game that either contradict established continuity, or don't make sense with the in game information. Hell, each entry in the series has its own continuity/logical weirdness.

Well for the Dark Brotherhood thing maybe it's magic or something? I mean, it is fantasy so anything's possible really.

As for plotholes, well with a game the size of Skyrim that's just inevitable.

 

[lacktheknack]

At least your game never decided to make every possible ending to the second game canon at once, and let you sort out the mess.

To be fair, that was absolutely brilliant in a pants-on-head dumb kind of way. I got immense enjoyment out of the "wat wat wat" levels of it...

 

[LostCrusader]

And the dark brotherhood just doesn't make sense. Okay, so there is only ONE group of assassins left in tamriel, fine. Obviously they only operate in skyrim, right? except they don't. It specifically mentions that they still operate in most of the provinces, with the havewave that they hear about people performing the ritual that used to summon them. This is impossible. Unless they have an incredibly expansive network of spies in every town and hamlet, they aren't going to hear that someone wants them from across the continent. news of a murder (attempted or otherwise) isn't going to spread that far. If they DO have that powerful spy network, they are powerful enough to have other assassin centers besides the one in skyrim.

This was addressed. The only way they find out is through hearing rumors of someone performing The Black Sacrament. Much like how you did when you found out about the boy in Windhelm. So it takes them a lot longer to actually reach a customer.

You weren't paying attention. They also say they take contracts OUT OF SKYRIM. News isnt going to travel from say, Hammerfell, that one guy is trying to kill one other guy. People don't find small-time news interesting enough to carry it that far. Not when more people die from war, disease, and banditry. So there is no way they just "hear about it" unless it happens in skyrim, or very, very nearby.

I didn't get around to doing much with the brotherhood in Skyrim, but in Oblivion they didn't hear about who they were going to kill from their clients directly. The go between was the night mother I think (might have been sithis) who was pretty much getting prayed to with the black sacrament. So if they were hearing who to kill from some daedra, then they could be getting contracts from outside of Skyrim.