Ok, new plan.

[Paragon Fury]

I agree, but perhaps in the interest of it working drop the pass mark to 60%
As far as I'm concerned utter cretins should not have a say on how the world works. You wouldn't let a high-school drop out work with a nuclear bomb, and you wouldn't trust them to make your city's transport system work would you?
SO why let them decide which cretin runs the country?!

But once you limit the rights of one group all other groups are at risk or being limited as well. It is a slippery slope to total fascist rule.

The slippery slope fallacy is not a good basis for an arguement.

 

[Deathsong17]

So, you have to be fat to vote?

 

[axia777]

Again, this is fascist.

Fascist how? The theories laid out in the book are just debating the idea of a democracy where the franchise is unlimited against a democracy where it is limited to those who have been said to have earned it; all other rights are intact, it is only the franchise that has to be earned.

But you are limiting the rights of citizens. You are placing a set of rules upon the criteria by which they may participate in society. It may not be total fascism, but it certainly is some form of fascism. It will never work and would be abused.

The slippery slope fallacy is not a good basis for an argument.

Ar you kidding me? Please tall me of a time when a set of rules such as the ones being proposed were not abused to benefit certain members of the government? It is human nature to abuse a system. It happens every day. In theory it may work but real life is not a theory.

 

[Beastialman]

I personally wouldn't mind a test for people who haven't voted before. Like here is an example question...

Meekrab has a strong stance on.

A: Dehydrated Bean curd

B: 75% all-natural Thanks Giving day stuffing

C: Something I'm unfamiliar with

That way we don't get people just voting on basis of race, gender, or age (I personally think that this was a major part of the elections, go ahead yell at me ).

 

[Hot'n'steamy]

I agree, but perhaps in the interest of it working drop the pass mark to 60%
As far as I'm concerned utter cretins should not have a say on how the world works. You wouldn't let a high-school drop out work with a nuclear bomb, and you wouldn't trust them to make your city's transport system work would you?
SO why let them decide which cretin runs the country?!

But once you limit the rights of one group all other groups are at risk or being limited as well. It is a slippery slope to total fascist rule.

The slippery slope fallacy is not a good basis for an arguement.

Ok, it sets a new precedent of that there are some deemed by the state as applicable to vote whilst others are inapplicable; currently we believe are arguing that people with a below average IQ are not vote? Ok well in that case there are certain well-credited (with various degrees of agreement within the scientific peer-review community) papers/studies/books/experiments that black people have on average a lower IQ than that of white people (see the Bell Curve [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_bell_curve]). Why waste the time with expensive IQ tests? Lets not let black people vote. Or women. Or people shorter than 5' 2".

 

[Danny Ocean]

Again, this is fascist.

Fascist how? The theories laid out in the book are just debating the idea of a democracy where the franchise is unlimited against a democracy where it is limited to those who have been said to have earned it; all other rights are intact, it is only the franchise that has to be earned.

I was going to say, I think a lot of the commentators need to read up what the actual definition of Fascist is. You'll see it isn't actually such a bad view when you read into it.

Also, what the hell is all this "Anti-American" stuff? What does that even mean? Some relation to your constitution?

 

[axia777]

Ok, it sets a new precedent of that there are some deemed by the state as applicable to vote whilst others are inapplicable; currently we believe are arguing that people with a below average IQ are not vote? Ok well in that case there are certain well-credited and (with various degrees of agreement within the scientific peer-review community) that black people have on average a lower IQ than that of white people (see the Bell Curve [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_bell_curve]. Why waste the time with expensive IQ tests? Lets not let black people vote. Or women. Or people shorter than 5' 2".

Or those with bad credit scores. Or those of the liberal persuasion. Or Asians. You all get the idea.

 

[LockHeart]

But you are limiting the rights of citizens. You are placing a set of rules upon the criteria by which they may participate in society. It may not be total fascism, but it certainly is some form of fascism. It will never work and would be abused.

A right is being limited and there is nothing stopping people from earning said right, nor does the government have totalitarian control of the people. They can fully participate in society at large, they just can't vote. But either way, the rights they already enjoy, i.e. freedom of speech and conscience, free press, habeus corpus etc. cannot be stripped. It is not fascist. In fact it's a lot closer to the original form of democracy practiced by the Greeks than any of the systems we have today.

 

[Antlers]

This is not on. In order vote I think a rational mind should be justified rather than a degree of knowledge.

A preferable method of sorting the wheat from the chaff would perhaps be a specialized iq test designed not to measure, but instead as a way of judging rationale and thinking capacity and taking that as a indicator of whether voting should be permitted or not.

This. Er... Well sort of.

I think discriminating against the uneducated is pretty bad. Uneducated does not equal stupid. And a lot of the time it may not be their fault they're uneducated. Actually, I don't think there should be a means test at all. I think the best current system is the democracy in place. It has its faults (George Bush elected twice, being a major one) but I think a means test to vote is far more fault ridden (and also quite horrible and discriminatory). What you're basically saying is 'only people who are the same as me may vote'. And ok, you're going to ask 'where did I say that?' but I'm guessing you know all the answers to your means test. And I'm guessing the reason you want this test done is because you reason that people who can answer it will be simliar to you, and will vote the same way. Correct me if I'm wrong (haha as if I had to ask).

 

[PyroZombie]

That is how Democracy (well at least in a represented Republic that is) works. What you are proposing is anti-American and fascist. So if you don't like how real Democracy works move to China.

Ahem. George Bush.

End argument.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

I think proper education would fix all the above problems. I would say that capitalism is the cause of them all, but...well...telling America to drop capitalism is like telling a dog to stop licking its balls.

Good luck in "the land of the free."

-is laughing very, very hard-

 

[axia777]

I think proper education would fix all the above problems. I would say that capitalism is the problem, but...well...telling America to drop capitalism is like telling a dog to stop licking its balls.

Good luck in "the land of the free."

-is laughing very, very hard-

Uh, most of Europe, Asia, Australia, and South America are capitalist as well. So who is laughing now?

That is how Democracy (well at least in a represented Republic that is) works. What you are proposing is anti-American and fascist. So if you don't like how real Democracy works move to China.

Ahem. George Bush.

End argument.

What about him? Our American system of Government survived his stupidity. What is your point? He actually did not permanently limit anyone's right. He just violated them for a time. For the record I hate GW. He is an evil asshat. But oh well. America lives on.

 

[LockHeart]

I was going to say, I think a lot of the commentators need to read up what the actual definition of Fascist is. You'll see it isn't actually such a bad view when you read into it.

Hang on, fascism isn't actually such a bad view? Or was it Heinlein's views? Apologies for the confusion here

 

[Cowabungaa]

Discrimination is bad. If you don't like it, go to Canada.

I don't see how this is discrimination really. Everyone gets the same chance, there is no certain group that's excluded.

Now I don't think this test is uber fantastic, but I don't have anything particular against this idea. The main problem I have with the current form of representative democracy is that the elections are, for the most part, a simple popularity contest. A lot of power is given to the people at an election, and I can't shake the feeling that it's incredibly weird to not need qualifications before one can be allowed to wield that power. For example:

Electricians don't need to know shit about the American Civil War to do their job, but as resident's of America they still deserve the chance to participate in government.

So basically you're saying that you don't have to know jack shit about governing a country if you want to actually participate in governing the country. It's like not requiring a heart surgeon to have a surgeon's degree, at least that's what it sounds like to me.

And because that's how it's currently is, each election (like the last US elections or the last Dutch elections), I see people get scammed by political parties, simply because quite a large part of the electorate is on quite a few points so easily scammed. And that's ultimately bad for the country, it's a system that's good for the politicians; they can more easily push through the ideas they believe in, even if they're not the most effective. But that's not what democracy is about, democracy is about what the people want, not what the politicians want. The politicians are the people's servants, the guys who do the day-to-day work of making sure that what the people want actually happens.

Basically, a system like this is protection for the people, not against the people. A protection to prevent them from getting scammed by politicians that easily. I doubt anyone actually wants an election to be like American Idols, and I doubt that anyone wants the electorate to be easily fooled, that's bad for the country.

And that's why I don't have anything particular against this idea. I also don't see how it would be fascistic. Anyone should be able to take this test any time they want to earn voting rights. It would also, pretty much, eliminate the need of age restrictions which actually ís discrimination. Afterall, why can't a 16 year old have the knowledge and wisdom to be able to participate? Given, I think the majority doesn't, but there are always exceptions, and this rule would cater to them. If a 16 year old thinks he/she has what it takes, he/she can take the test and find out. And if you fail, you can just take the test again, and again, and again if you feel like it. Now thát's freedom. You just have to work to get job of being part of the electorate, which is a pretty damn important job in a representative democracy.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

I think proper education would fix all the above problems. I would say that capitalism is the problem, but...well...telling America to drop capitalism is like telling a dog to stop licking its balls.

Good luck in "the land of the free."

-is laughing very, very hard-

Uh, most of Europe, Asia, Australia, and South America are capitalist as well. So who is laughing now?

While some of them are doing well, they all still have many problems that stem from capitalism.

 

[CIA]

The idea behind governments, according to Locke, is that everyone in the community gives their judicial authority to the government. EVERYONE in the community. Therefore imposing restrictions on voting to wield that judicial authority, or voting for a proxy to wield it for you, goes against the idea of a government that protects the rights of the people.

 

[EvilPicnic]

Your exam just tests cultural awareness rather than intelligence. But even so, why should my lack of either prevent me from voting?

You could be denied the right to vote on an issue you may feel strongly about, solely because you failed a general knowledge test...deeply flawed, and very undemocratic.



And this question is just unfair...:
-----------------------
24: During WWI, what side was the United States on? (Circle one.)

Allies or Entente'
-------------------------
???

 

[Clashero]

After seeing the massive amount of stupidity that has spewed out of America since the election of President Obama, I personally think its time to enact an addendum to the voting laws - one that states you must pass Federal Apptitude Test before you're allowed to vote.

Because over these last few months, I think America has proven what the biggest threat to itself is. Its not war with another nation, viruses, socialism, communism, facism or any other "ism". It the fucking absurdly low intelligence of the general population, and the fact that for some reason we feel fucking compelled to let these people have say in what goes, even though doing fucking basic math is a challenge for them. When I have to watch reports about how people in OTHER COUNTRIES know more about my country THEN THE PEOPLE WHO FUCKING LIVE HERE, I honestly just want to start offing people. It'd be a community freakin' service at this point me'thinks. These are people who can't tell their Gerald Fords from their Harrison Fords, but we let them help decide who the President of United States is going to be. Talk about the inmates running the asylum.

(/angry rant part)

But no, seriously, you should have to pass a test every year in order to be allowed to vote on anything on a state or federal level. This accomplishes a few things. It ensures that those who pass have decent grip on logic and thought, know a decent amount about America and World history, and are at least smart enough and civic-minded enough to care, show up, and go through the process. Instead of just letting any naturalizied or natural 18+ have a say.

This test would be an objective, fact-based test, consisting of logic, math, American and World history, and current event questions. You'd have to get a 75% or better to pass, and thats out of at least 150 questions, with no partial credit on anything. Questions would be in no particular order, and consist of something like this:

10: Is the following problem valid or invalid?

All men wear uniforms
Police officers wear uniforms
-Therefore, all police officers are men.

13: Without using a calculator, figure out how much money one would earn working 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month, for 6 months, at a wage of $8.44, before taxes.

15. Name your state's two Senators and their party.

16: President Lincoln was which President?

17: What were the two sides in the American Civil War?

18: Name 3 nations, besides the United States, that were part of the Allies during World War II.

24: During WWI, what side was the United States on? (Circle one.)

Allies or Entente'

26: Name 3 current Supreme Court Justices.

28: Who wrote the Declaration of Independance?

30: Construct a truth table for the following statement.

If the streets are not wet, then it is not raining.

35: Who is the governer of your state?




None of this is too hard, even for someone fresh out of high school. For verification, the first time you take the test, if you pass you're mailed a card that you swipe when you want to go vote. For every time after that, you take your card with you to the testing center, and turn it in with your test. If you pass, its sent back to you, updated and re-certified. If not, no card for you.

And I know people are going to cry "discrimination" and "unfair", but get over yourselves people - not all discrimination is "bad" and this basic knowledge - if you can't answer these questions as an American, something is seriously wrong.





P.S. For all you test-y types, here are the answers to the above questions, just for fun.

10: Invalid
13: $8,102.40
15: (Varies by State)
16: The 16th
17: Union and Confederate
18: Britian, Soviet Union, France, Poland, Austrialia, Albania, Canada, China, Greece, Belgium, Brazil, Mexico, etc.
24: Entente'
26: Stevens, Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Alito, Roberts (Chief Justice), Breyer
28: Thomas Jefferson
30: (Table I really don't want to do on my computer)
35: (Varies by State)

10: Is the following problem valid or invalid?

All men wear uniforms
Police officers wear uniforms
-Therefore, all police officers are men.

NOT ALL MEN WEAR UNIFORMS LOL

13: Without using a calculator, figure out how much money one would earn working 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month, for 6 months, at a wage of $8.44, before taxes.

More than I'm earning, that's for sure.

15. Name your state's two Senators and their party.
Cocktail Party

16: President Lincoln was which President?
The one who got killed

17: What were the two sides in the American Civil War?
Heads and tails

18: Name 3 nations, besides the United States, that were part of the Allies during World War II.
None. The US won WWII by itself.

24: During WWI, what side was the United States on? (Circle one.)

Allies or Entente'

Trick question: entente is French for Allies.

26: Name 3 current Supreme Court Justices.
Justice is COUNTABLE? OMG!

28: Who wrote the Declaration of Independance?
The dude with the big signature

30: Construct a truth table for the following statement.
If the streets are not wet, then it is not raining.

Well, duh

35: Who is the governer of your state?

Money

 

[PyroZombie]

I think proper education would fix all the above problems. I would say that capitalism is the problem, but...well...telling America to drop capitalism is like telling a dog to stop licking its balls.

Good luck in "the land of the free."

-is laughing very, very hard-

Uh, most of Europe, Asia, Australia, and South America are capitalist as well. So who is laughing now?

That is how Democracy (well at least in a represented Republic that is) works. What you are proposing is anti-American and fascist. So if you don't like how real Democracy works move to China.

Ahem. George Bush.

End argument.

What about him? Our American system of Government survived his stupidity. What is your point? He actually did not permanently limit anyone's right. He just violated them for a time. For the record I hate GW. He is an evil asshat. But oh well. America lives on.

we had a jackass who didn't really win a "straight" election besides his second, in which both were inept at leading even lemmings.

Go ahead think, I'm joking, but look at what the aftermath of the G.W.Jr has done to us as a country, We were at least well-liked by some nations, now I'm being pointed out like I'm the fucking Representative of the United States, A 18-year old sociopath with a obsession with fire, George Carlin and M*A*S*H.

I was planning to leave the country for vacation, or maybe retirement, but If i get treated like this here by foreign exchange students, how the hell am i going to relax somewhere else?

There is no such thing as majority rules in a insane asylum, which apparently America has become anymore if you haven't been watching the news.

 

[Danny Ocean]

I was going to say, I think a lot of the commentators need to read up what the actual definition of Fascist is. You'll see it isn't actually such a bad view when you read into it.

Hang on, fascism isn't actually such a bad view? Or was it Heinlein's views? Apologies for the confusion here

From what I gather, it places the need of the many above rights. Kinda the "Greater Good". It does terrible things to people, but it garners speedy advancement of the whole.

Of course, it isn't stated that fascism has to sacrifice rights. It's a conservative (And most would argue correct) lack of faith in humans that makes it lead on to that.

I'll explain more into my interpretation of it if you like. It might be wrong, but I'd be happy to tell it.

So basically you're saying that you don't have to know jack shit... which is a pretty damn important job in a representative democracy. [small](Lol)[/small]

Took the words right out my mouth in a way I could never eloquate. +1 Danny Cookie to you. And a free hug.