Okay, a question to you all regarding July 4th

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

We should really celebrate July 4th by giving French and Spanish people money.
I, personally, don't celebrate US independance day, due to a lack of respect for my country, and I honestly hate how it's regarded. "OH MAH GOWD, THE BRITISH PEOPLE ARE SO EVIL! WITH THEIR FUNKY ACCENTS AND RED COATS!"
Yes, at the time it was a country standing up for what it wanted, after deplomacy had failed.
I doubt most americans know the phrase "No taxation without representation" phrase, Infact, I know they don't, seeing as how we have the tea-party movement.
Back then, sure I find that it would have been fine to celebrate, but now that we're friends with britian politically, I find any jab at them extreamly immature.

 

[Total LOLige]

I have one thing to say regarding 4th of July. On the 4th July 2012 the English national football team moved up to 4th in the Fifa world rankings for the first time ever, I find this funny considering it's on a day that celebrates one of Britain's significant defeats.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Patriotism is the belief your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

Isn't that Nationalism, were as patriotism is just simply loving your country?

Yep, that's a better description for nationalism. The word 'patriotism' is often used incorrectly in this manner. It's not your fault, I'm sure you can name a politician or two who would like nothing more than to funnel your love of country into support of all kinds of nasty things. They mislead on purpose, so words lose their meanings 1984-style.

In practice, patriotism is used to mean love of country. But if you want to get historical, and sense we're talking about Independence Day I'm sure you do, patriotism referred to a more general spirit of selflessness toward your fellow man and a willingness to sacrifice for the good of all. Around the time of the Revolution and the American Enlightenment it was not strictly synonymous with 'love of country', although this was a nationalistic time. If you called someone a patriot 'love of country' was implied by common convention.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

We should really celebrate July 4th by giving French and Spanish people money.
I, personally, don't celebrate US independance day, due to a lack of respect for my country, and I honestly hate how it's regarded. "OH MAH GOWD, THE BRITISH PEOPLE ARE SO EVIL! WITH THEIR FUNKY ACCENTS AND RED COATS!"
Yes, at the time it was a country standing up for what it wanted, after deplomacy had failed.
I doubt most americans know the phrase "No taxation without representation" phrase, Infact, I know they don't, seeing as how we have the tea-party movement.
Back then, sure I find that it would have been fine to celebrate, but now that we're friends with britian politically, I find any jab at them extreamly immature.

Where are you or where do you go where people celebrate the 4th by giving British people a hard time? I have never seen that in my life. Do you really think that is what celebrating Independence Day is about?

I know America has done some awful shit, but Jesus you guys are unnecessarily self-deprecating. Pretending the Revolution wasn't a phenomenal achievement or a landmark event in modern history doesn't make anyone genuinely sophisticated. Next you're all going to start wearing turtle-necks and berets.

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

Next you're all going to start wearing turtle-necks and berets.

I ALREADY DO!

Pretending the Revolution wasn't a phenomenal achievement or a landmark event in modern history doesn't make anyone genuinely sophisticated.

Modern history?
It was nearly two hundred fifty years ago!
If we are speaking about human history, that's a really long time.

It had a big effect, yes, but it doesn't really hold up into any sense today. The world of colonization is finished, and I can't help but find rubbing in an unfair war to another countries face fun.
I never said my views should apply to everyone else. If you like it, more power to you. I refuse to glorify war in any sense.

This day doesn't disgust me in any way, because it might as well be ancient history, So I don't feel the people who celebrate it are bad in any way, and yes, it did lay the groundworks for the freedom we have today. That's just about all I aknowledge it for.
I just find celebrating it as like the number one day in our nation a little silly, I believe we should have a constitution day instead. Hell, most americans probably don't know when the constitution was adopted.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Next you're all going to start wearing turtle-necks and berets.

I ALREADY DO!

Pretending the Revolution wasn't a phenomenal achievement or a landmark event in modern history doesn't make anyone genuinely sophisticated.

Modern history?
It was nearly two hundred fifty years ago!
If we are speaking about human history, that's a really long time.

It had a big effect, yes, but it doesn't really hold up into any sense today. The world of colonization is finished, and I can't help but find rubbing in an unfair war to another countries face fun.
I never said my views should apply to everyone else. If you like it, more power to you. I refuse to glorify war in any sense.

This day doesn't disgust me in any way, because it might as well be ancient history, So I don't feel the people who celebrate it are bad in any way, and yes, it did lay the groundworks for the freedom we have today. That's just about all I aknowledge it for.
I just find celebrating it as like the number one day in our nation a little silly, I believe we should have a constitution day instead. Hell, most americans probably don't know when the constitution was adopted.

Fair enough. I think you misunderstand what is being celebrated on Independence Day. It represents our birth as a people and the realization of our values. Often we also acknowledge the sacrifice of those who fought to make those dreams a reality. I guess you could call that glorifying war, kind of? In the sense that it's not strictly pacifistic? But I don't see how you could construe that as "rubbing in an unfair war". Anyway, if you don't think that's important, fair enough.

 

[LetalisK]

People realize that the date of July 4th has about dick-all to do with Americans defeating the British, right? That date is September 3rd.

 

[Sansha]

What amuses me about those arguments is that people use the term 'we' to describe their country's actions.

Well, the only people who're entitled to say 'we did xxx' are the people who were actually fucking there, not some neckbeard on YouTube whose only effort taken to be of their nationality was happening to be born in that country.

"we saved ur ass in ww2 lol" - what's this 'we' shit? Your grandfather went and probably made a great contribution to the war effort, sure, but you didn't do shit - you got to wait until he came back home so he could nail your grandmother and get the ball rolling on your sad little existence.

To me, what a country did in the past is totally irrelevant. What defines a nation depends entirely on what they're doing now. Germany somehow allowed the Nazi party to come to power but nobody (in their right mind) bitches out the German people for shit they had no part in doing seventy years ago, just like most of these people have had nothing to do with their nation's history or what defines them now.

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

Fair enough. I think you misunderstand what is being celebrated on Independence Day. It represents our birth as a people and the realization of our values. Often we also acknowledge the sacrifice of those who fought to make those dreams a reality. I guess you could call that glorifying war, kind of? In the sense that it's not strictly pacifistic? But I don't see how you could construe that as "rubbing in an unfair war". Anyway, if you don't think that's important, fair enough.

Unfair was a poor word choice on my part.
What I ment is that people seem to regard it as an impossible accomplishment, when it really isn't so.
the US knew the land, had plenty of morale, the British had a poor supply chain, having to wait months for shipments, troops and training from the french, involvement from the spanish and dutch, guerilla vs. conventional warfare, and the list could go on.
The point I was trying to make is that the odds were stacked in the United States favor.

 

[bad rider]

Well it was more of a civil war, the outcome was a new nation. So technically Britain won, of course it was the British fighting on both sides.

 

[likalaruku]

I'm an American & to me, the 4th of July is a day where people celebrate their love of explosions & shiny shiny colors, despite the fact that they terrify animals, give the elderly & birds heart attacks, make dogs howl, make babies cry, pollute the sky, poison water, set fires, & cost working people their much needed sleep.

 

[Sansha]

I'm an American & to me, the 4th of July is a day where people celebrate their love of explosions & shiny shiny colors, despite the fact that they terrify animals, give the elderly & birds heart attacks, make dogs howl, make babies cry, pollute the sky, poison water, set fires, & cost working people their much needed sleep.

People like you are a reason why the world sucks. You're so atrociously boring and self-centered that you have to nitpick every negative thing about something wonderful and fun.

 

[jamesbrown]

American revelution in a nutshell:

it started as an economic backfire for britan that slowly became a race to the bottom: restrictive and enventually forbidden trading by britian to the colonies; increasing taxes as a form of control; then using military force to implement those policies; then having to restrict people themsleves to slow the rebellion.

Also key points to remember:

- most founding fathers were the wealthy of the colonies
- the boston tea party was more against trade resrictions for that city/colony than anything
- France only came into the fight After Benjermin Franklin convinced them to help
- the colonies themsleves were divided between loyalists and revelutionarys
- the declaration of independence was "finished" on july 4th; therefore it is considered the day of seperation from both economic control and political control from british empire


All-in-all 4th of july is a day that is just like any other independence day from other countrys celebrating that they exist and a celebration of the country, the difference is that america is an entity that has spread its influence all over the world; therefore the international community has some level of investment into my country's (america) affairs. This is then misprecived by some americans as an "everyone-wishes-to-be-us" complex which then becomes a form of elitism, thus spewing the kinds of comments that I believe you guys are refering to.

most americans do celebrate with grills and fireworks, tradition is tradition; most people have traditions for their own independence day (if I am wrong, create some, celebrating existance is awesome, esp. if you look at history where you're existance is always at risk)

If I am wrong or misspelled or misused commas, please make sure it is rage-filled and at least 3 paragraphs long, without structure; otherwise I might have to take you seriously

 

[jamesbrown]

What amuses me about those arguments is that people use the term 'we' to describe their country's actions.

Well, the only people who're entitled to say 'we did xxx' are the people who were actually fucking there, not some neckbeard on YouTube whose only effort taken to be of their nationality was happening to be born in that country.

"we saved ur ass in ww2 lol" - what's this 'we' shit? Your grandfather went and probably made a great contribution to the war effort, sure, but you didn't do shit - you got to wait until he came back home so he could nail your grandmother and get the ball rolling on your sad little existence.

To me, what a country did in the past is totally irrelevant. What defines a nation depends entirely on what they're doing now. Germany somehow allowed the Nazi party to come to power but nobody (in their right mind) bitches out the German people for shit they had no part in doing seventy years ago, just like most of these people have had nothing to do with their nation's history or what defines them now.

I am sorry that is just to rational and sane, come back when you're filled with bile and are ready to use the internets anonymity to its "fullest potential"

 

[RN7]

The thing that angers me the most about July the 4th besides the misplaced and idiotic American false-patriotism and false-nationalism is the fact that no one pays attention to why July the 4th is really great. It was the day Nathaniel Hawthorne was born. And Nathaniel Hawthorne was awesome. I'd rather shoot off bootlegged variants of explosives in his name than for the sake of this country in its current state.

Americans in particular, you know your history better than I do, how do you guys know it?

HAHA no we don't. The education system is so broken here that there are some kids who don't even know the first president (I'd say that's pretty basic).[/quote]

Ironically, the education system I am currently a part of, upon which I learned the most I ever have about North American (barring Canada because...I guess they didn't like Canada) history, was developed primarily by Europeans. I find this irony to be humorous.

 

[revjor]

I'd say most people know General Rochambeau or at least the French connection during the war. The fourth is a day of fun. Not to be taken seriously.

 

[Griffolion]

We seem to have a good conversation going here, thanks to everyone who clarified/confirmed facts.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

We should really celebrate July 4th by giving French and Spanish people money.
I, personally, don't celebrate US independance day, due to a lack of respect for my country, and I honestly hate how it's regarded. "OH MAH GOWD, THE BRITISH PEOPLE ARE SO EVIL! WITH THEIR FUNKY ACCENTS AND RED COATS!"
Yes, at the time it was a country standing up for what it wanted, after deplomacy had failed.
I doubt most americans know the phrase "No taxation without representation" phrase, Infact, I know they don't, seeing as how we have the tea-party movement.
Back then, sure I find that it would have been fine to celebrate, but now that we're friends with britian politically, I find any jab at them extreamly immature.

That taxation/representation thing only annoys me because according to tax records Britain BARELY enforced it and it was only there because smuggling was ridiculously prolific. It always reads like the revolution kicked off because Britain was trying to re-coup losses from fighting the French on behalf of America a few years earlier (admittedly, that's like getting a dog to eat a plate full of bacon, Britain never needs much of a push to kick-off with France) and this was deemed outrageous.

Britain did plenty of shitty things in it's time as the great Empire but America didn't get much abuse -_-.

OT: 4th of July is like the Queen here getting a jubilee, just a day to be patriotic, if someone uses that as an excuse to drag up one of America's wins let 'em have it and just message them on the day Vietnam ended shouting about how awesome the Vietnamese victory was.