Okay...Hitting in General

[the December King]

Bullies aren't necessarily the bigger/stronger kids, but they often are.

For the most part is it safe to say bullies have "power". In highschool that power may be physical strength or a "posse" to work within, but in my military carrier and beyond the spectrum of bullies widen to anyone with any form of power or authority. I saw more than my fair share of "little man" syndromes abusing their rank to suppress anyone they didn't like or agree with regardless of right or wrong. Plenty of managers as well who will threaten their employees who may very well be 100% in the right.

But don't let this statement confuse anyone: Power does not corrupt, but the corrupt tend to seek power.

Good point, Pyrokinesis, I was just thinking about High School/Grade School at the time I made the post.

 

[Ipsen]

Gotta remember man. In high school scenario it 'looks' like everyone knows each other. Not really. In the world we have NO idea what people around us are really capable of, or what they've been learning. That's the biggest reason to avoid fights as much as possible. You are seeing mini-versions of the dark tactics that people grow up and employ when they get more social power. As adults, they'll do it with lies, video tape, papers, scandals and lawyers.

Most you can do is keep yourself clean. Don't listen to people talking shit or misunderstanding your background eh. U gotta keep your own confidence, and remember. Who really knows you?

That's why 'playing the dozens' were invented. There are certain individuals that have authority and good people around them, and they don't get messed with as much. You blow up too easily and its a poker tell to the slimeballs out there.

You gotta think about the aftermath 'How is this going to end for me?' Or who sees my perspective they they're just constantly poking with verbal sticks. Look at Chris Brown. All those reported incidents because the ones around him, see they can push his buttons and make him raise his fists. The real war starts in your mind, and it has to be won there first. Stay cool

This was...well, it was well said. I laik, and thank you

It's very logical to say that violence isn't the answer to the point of admonishing another person's view on a very physical and instinctual matter, but the really scary thing I've found about the adulthood I've recently walked into is not that there are a bunch of adults running around, but that there are adults AND children in adult bodies running around. We're physically barred for the most part from learning that ambivalent lesson in social settings with other kids; you don't see or understand too many kids as proper adult figures.

If I were to say anything, just be prepared...With ALL the tools at your disposal. Violence isn't the answer, but it is part of what we are. Some other wise adage says to don't disrespect who or what you are.

 

[Sunrider]

Snip

I don't care at all how "unpopular" the opinion is, you are absolutely right. I was bullied every single day throughout pretty much my entire school life, and the only thing that ever made a difference was when I beat one of them up.
There are pros and cons to that story, and I won't go into that unless someone actually asks, but that particular person never bothered me again at least.

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

I'm going to take a guess that the "84" in your username is a reference to the year you were born? If that's true it's probably time to stop talking about how you'd respond to a high school bully. In the adult world you can't beat up everyone who is mean to you.

Forgive me for responding with my opinion to a post that hit close to home for me. I refrained from commenting about adult life because I had nothing more to add. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

I get it dude, I was bullied in school too. It's shitty, nobody should have to go through it. But you're saying because it worked as a child it's okay. High school leaves scars, but you have to move past the beating people up thing.

Seems like you didn't understand what I meant by "I had nothing more to add." I meant I had nothing more to add from what was already said by other people already. It's pretty obvious adult life and school life is not the same thing.

 

[Sunrider]

Certainly has a better track record than waving your finger at them, saying "for shame!", or worse, blaming the victim, which seems to be the norm in this retarded politically correct society.

Based on what? If you're incredibly lucky and your "bully" is a single loner with no friends, then yes, showing that you're the bigger bully will work, in every other scenario fighting back just indicates to them that you're ready to ramp this shit up. At that point verbal abuse is heaven.

Sorry, there's just not a single thing you're saying that coincides with my experience or opinions. When teachers / authority has shown no interest in your case, there isn't really anything to do other than do something about it or suck it up. If you want to just suck it up, that's your prerogative, but I'd personally rather kill someone than to suffer that kind of abuse.
About verbal abuse, you're assuming that it wasn't already "ramped up" to physical abuse, and even if you didn't assume that, I still wouldn't agree. Verbal abuse is not necessarily better than physical abuse.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

Agreed. First world societies have turned the modern mail into a posturing, preening, pussified version of what they once were. "Men" nowadays are supposed to be perfectly behaved little darlings who never fight or roughhouse. If more guys spent some time in the gym and away from their computer screens I think they'd be better off. If someone provokes you, or relentlessly mocks you, then they deserve to get hit. Maybe they should learn a little respect instead of me having to exercise restraint when they obviously aren't.

 

[wulf3n]

Sorry, there's just not a single thing you're saying that coincides with my experience or opinions. When teachers / authority has shown no interest in your case, there isn't really anything to do other than do something about it or suck it up.

And your way of doing something about it is likely going to end up making the situation worse.

If you want to just suck it up, that's your prerogative, but I'd personally rather kill someone than to suffer that kind of abuse.

And when you kill them you go to jail where you'll suffer worse abuse. Great plan.

About verbal abuse, you're assuming that it wasn't already "ramped up" to physical abuse, and even if you didn't assume that, I still wouldn't agree.

I am because defending ones self is different to attacking someone for verbal abuse.

Verbal abuse is not necessarily better than physical abuse.

I couldn't disagree with you more. You never appreciate the adage "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me" until you're getting pelted with sticks and stones on a regular basis.

 

[Ipsen]

Agreed. First world societies have turned the modern mail into a posturing, preening, pussified version of what they once were. "Men" nowadays are supposed to be perfectly behaved little darlings who never fight or roughhouse. If more guys spent some time in the gym and away from their computer screens I think they'd be better off. If someone provokes you, or relentlessly mocks you, then they deserve to get hit. Maybe they should learn a little respect instead of me having to exercise restraint when they obviously aren't.

I'll be sweetly positive for you, before you get bashed to dust here.

You have the point of strength when you know they deserve to get hit (and they apparently don't).

From there, actually hitting them often just invites more negatives than positives.

"Men" didn't survive by the perception that we often generalize ourselves by. Actually, I'm of the impression that that view was from times when a lot of fucking people died. Not very efficient.

As backwards as it may be (and I show my shounen manga favor here), a 'fight' should be about communication, counting as many positives as possible. Not harming the other person. Which is going to happen anyway. See? Backwards. But some backwards things in the world work. SOME.

 

[Sunrider]

And your way of doing something about it is likely going to end up making the situation worse.

You say that as if your "likely" is a universal truth. To me, it's quite the opposite. My "evidence" might be anecdotal at best, but you've hardly offered anything better.

And when you kill them you go to jail where you'll suffer worse abuse. Great plan.

Speak for yourself. I'm not gonna be all emo or whatever, but don't try to fucking tell me what's preferable without knowing what was going on every day.

I am because defending ones self is different to attacking someone for verbal abuse.

For me, it wasn't about defense. It was about revenge. Judge me all you want, but it works.

I couldn't disagree with you more. You never appreciate the adage "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me" until you're getting pelted with sticks and stones on a regular basis.

You're welcome to disagree all you want, but I know the feeling of continuous abuse, both physical and verbal. I can't place one over the other now afterwards. When one is going on, it feels worse than the other, but thinking back on it, I honestly can't even say what's worse.

 

[wulf3n]

You say that as if your "likely" is a universal truth. To me, it's quite the opposite. My "evidence" might be anecdotal at best, but you've hardly offered anything better.

Nor have I offered anything less.

Speak for yourself. I'm not gonna be all emo or whatever, but don't try to fucking tell me what's preferable without knowing what was going on every day.

I know from your own statement that your situation ended the moment "fought back" indicating a better situation than most. You were lucky in that your "bully" was so easily dissuaded.

For me, it wasn't about defense. It was about revenge. Judge me all you want,

Oh I will. Not because you wanted revenge, but that your opinion has the potential of giving another terrible advice.

but it works.

Correction: But it worked. For many of us it didn't.

You're welcome to disagree all you want, but I know the feeling of continuous abuse, both physical and verbal.

You and millions of others.

I can't place one over the other now afterwards. When one is going on, it feels worse than the other, but thinking back on it, I honestly can't even say what's worse.

I can. The verbal was much easier than the physical. The verbal ends where it ends, the physical does not. It lingers on in the constant explanations of where the bruises came from and the excuses from authority that nothing can be done because there's no proof.

 

[Yopaz]

People who condemn using violence to show people their place are usually the same people who wouldn't be any good in a fight in the first place. Obviously people who are physically weak are going to shy away from using violence and aren't going to be in favour of it.

I am stronger and more physically fit than the average person, I have practised boxing on a bag. I do not support violence. Nor do most of the friends I work out with one of them is a giant benching 140 kg.

I wish people would stop discounting pacifism as simple cowardice and rather consider how those people have been raised. It just seems insulting. There are in fact laws against this too, you did know those exist, right?

 

[JoJo]

Agreed. First world societies have turned the modern mail into a posturing, preening, pussified version of what they once were. "Men" nowadays are supposed to be perfectly behaved little darlings who never fight or roughhouse. If more guys spent some time in the gym and away from their computer screens I think they'd be better off. If someone provokes you, or relentlessly mocks you, then they deserve to get hit. Maybe they should learn a little respect instead of me having to exercise restraint when they obviously aren't.

Statistically, violent crime is at an all-time low in the Western world. For example, it's estimated medieval England percentage wise had 10 to 100 times more deaths by violence than the United Kingdom in the 21st century. Men have certainly become less violent over time, or 'pussified' as you put it, and that's absolutely a good thing in my opinion. What exactly would be the benefits to society of what you propose?

 

[Harpalyce]

Physical violence is a last resort option. It should stay that way and be taught that way. (And yes, in the rare case of 'once i beat up the bully he left me alone', that's a last resort option. Ideally we would have teachers and mentors looking for these things so that it never got to this point, and that's what we should be working towards, not an attitude of 'well just punch 'im'.)

The only time I've ever hit somebody is when it was mutually consensual and I was aware of their limits and proper safety words were in place. If everyone regarded such situations as the only appropriate time to hit somebody, the world would be a lot better place.

 

[Sunrider]

Nor have I offered anything less.

Yet you write as if you have higher authority on the subject. Seems we're at an impasse here.

I know from your own statement that your situation ended the moment "fought back" indicating a better situation than most. You were lucky in that your "bully" was so easily dissuaded.

"Easily" dissuaded, my ass. My previous statement still stands here.

Oh I will. Not because you wanted revenge, but that your opinion has the potential of giving another terrible advice.

Your advice of rolling over and taking it is worse, in my opinion. And our opinions is all we have here, so we're at an impasse here too. I dunno what I expected from this forum though. Anything other than just rolling over would make one the bad guy here. It's disgusting.

Correction: But it worked. For many of us it didn't.

And for many, it does. Impasse.

You and millions of others.

I never said I was special. No need to be condescending.

I can. The verbal was much easier than the physical. The verbal ends where it ends, the physical does not. It lingers on in the constant explanations of where the bruises came from and the excuses from authority that nothing can be done because there's no proof.

Quite the contrary, in my opinion. The bruises heal. The mental scars might, but the mind is way more fickle than the body. It takes longer, and requires tremendous effort. You know, I should probably thank you. You made me realize how much worse the verbal abuse was to me. Now I have an answer the next time it comes up.

Regardless, I'm done. It'll be the same exchange over and over, and that's not something I want to indulge in. Feel free to reply if you'd like, but you'd be wasting your time, and I don't intend to do the same. Neither of us will convince the other. If you want to think of that as me running away, feel free to do so, I couldn't possibly care less.

 

[TIMESWORDSMAN]

As both a history and genetics guy, I am of the opinion that certain people are more or less prone to violent thoughts and tendencies than others, and that these tendencies are based on their genetic history. We will call these various genetic backgrounds "races" for sake of time, even though it is inaccurate.
Now, when I study the history of a race, I find that it's voiced opinion towards combat and violence has no actual bearing on the actions of that race. Moreover, certain races tend to be more or less violent depending on the ready availability of food and usable land in their original environments, suggesting that genes which generate violent thoughts and ability are directly connected to whether or not such behavior would gain provide their bearer with food and shelter.

So, take people who's ancestors lived in ancient southern Europe around the Mediterranean, and compare them to people who hale from cold and hostile northern Europe in areas like Scandinavia. The people who's genetic code comes from a place of plenty will be less prone to mortal combat than those from the harsher climates. This can be seen in the martial history and arts if the two regions, with southern Europe developing thin, piercing weapons designed to render an opponent impotent, while northerners design heavier weapons for more rapid dismissal of opponents. It would be folly for me to say that these trends were universal in either setting, but I think you will find they are generally accurate.

 

[ninjaRiv]

I was brought up to punch bullies in the nose as hard as I could. That would, at the very least, make their eyes water so I'd have more of a chance of beating the shit out of them. I was taught to try and take out the biggest first. Pretty sure I didn't turn into a violent lunatic. Pretty sure I'm mature, polite and generally smart.

Example time: I was already at an age where I had come out of my shell a bit. My bullies were a little more docile, in part thanks to everyone maturing and being more interested in drugs and such. Also thanks to the fact that I was no longer an easy target. But this guy was giving my little brother some real shit. I had tried to make him stop using both my words and violence but could never catch the fucker (I was big and slow). One day, I felt a guy trying to push me down a a flight of stairs in a crowd. Not violently, just... pushing. I got pissed off after a while, turned around and grabbed the fucker by the throat; turns out, it was the guy who was bullying my brother. I threw him down the flight of stairs. He stopped bullying my brother and, from what I hear, changed his ways a bit.

Experiences are different and violence doesn't always work, words don't always work, telling doesn't always work, etc but it's important to stick up for yourself.

Nowadays, when people piss me off, I find it nice to piss them off more. I have a pretty quick wit and I'm known for being able to make the nicest person want to smash my head in. I prefer that method of dealing with things, because they often walk away. But I'll hit a guy if he says something that seriously should not be said. I'll hit a guy if he hits someone who doesn't deserve it. I'll hit bullies. But that sure as shit does not make me uncivilised or immature.

On a side note: Is is just me or do the "anti hitting" people tend to get insulting, calling people childish, uncivilised and stupid? I mean, both sides do it, I'm just saying... It seems to be mostly them. Am I wrong?

 

[EyeReaper]

Man. I don't think I've seen this much arguing and "I'm right" "no, I'm right" since the last Sarkeesian thread.

Welp, time to add my two cents to this red hot money bin then.

You can lump me with the group of "Violence should only be a very last resort." I still wouldn't use it then, if only because when I was younger I took a strict vow of pacifism after I tried to stab my brother with a steak knife (That was the day I realized I had anger issues) SO, even if I really wanted/needed to punch out my bullies, I would not. In high school, I was a chubby, nerdy guy with longer hair than anyone else and played Ds and read manga in school, so I was about as popular as the bubonic plague. Of course I attracted the attention of bullies. Wanna know what I did when the approached me? i put in headphones and walked away. When someone would shout at me from across the hall? I would walk away. Someone shoves me not the wall? brush myself off, keep going, when someone would take my notebook and throw it across the room? i'd pick it back up, sit back down, and not say a word. Wanna know what happened? the bullies lost interest in the "silent, probably retarded" kid and moved on to a new prey. Sure, "ignore your problems til they go away" isn't the best moral to teach kids... but I never said I would be a good parent.
So yeah, there's my story. What a load off my chest.

For a counterpoint, I can understand why some people resort to violence. I assume it's just how they were raised. I learned that a stoic silence deals with my foes, and half of my graduating class actually believed I was a mute. If resorting to going Little Mac on someone works for you, It's reasonable to believe that it can keep working. Doesn't mean everyone else will see eye-to-eye though.
Man that was a lot of words. I think this was my longest post to date on this forum

 

[Something Amyss]

I question the ethics of anyone who thinks it's a horrible thing to not swing your fists around.

Especially if it's because you won't punch someone for calling you gay.

Also, teaching your kid to `fight back` against bullying physically may sound like a good idea but all you are doing is reinforcing that it's okay to hit someone who is doing something you do not like, which is just not a good life lesson.

Not only is it perpetuating the concept of violence as a solution, but it's not necessarily effective. I've seen a lot of cases where all it led to was escalation. Hell, I've seen firearms brought to schools because things escalated to such a degree.

I'm not sure there's anything to the notion that standing up to a bully will stop them. It may in some cases, but otherwise, it just seems to be a meme. Similarly, I see a lot of crap from parents on my Facebook wall talking about how they're enrolling their kids in self defense courses, and these were the people that didn't work for in high school.

I always want to post something like "hey, remember that time your Tae Kwon Do stopped you from getting your teeth kicked in? No? Neither do I!" but it seems too dickish to make the point eloquently.

 

[Gary Thompson]

I don't like to fight people, not because I cling to some moral high ground or anything.

It's just, I've gotten my ass kicked before, it's quite embarrassing.
Also you could get killed fighting, I'd rather run or talk my way out of it.

 

[Candidus]

I use violence proactively when I'm threatened with violence or when men make transparent hierarchy-establishing jokes ("blah blah blah, or I'll kick your head in LOL j/k"). I used violence in junior school and secondary school after several years of consistent bullying from the same groups.

It worked for me, and if I had children I'd certainly encourage them to fight with the same ethic.

If you subscribe to victim-damaging zero-tolerance principles, if you're a subscriber to aberrant la-la-land pacifism (ie. If you think it works in the real world), then that's your business.

Edit: As age has become relevant to the discussion for some, I'm 28.

 

[Nathaniel Grey]

This is a very interesting discussion and I want to comment on a few things. First, many have pointed out that this type of situation is very schoolyard in nature. Fair enough. I was merely using it as an analogy. Not one to be taken and then applied to your own experiences. The key point to note is this: During our lives, adult or child, we will come into contact with people who will refuse to be both logical and reasonable. At that point all possible verbal communication will shut down. If one refuses to be logical and reasonable how can a conversation carry on? It can't. Which at that point you have two choices. Fight or don't fight. In adult world WE DO THE SAME EXACT THING. We are just great at masking our evil. We use passive aggression as our tool. We don't call people things like "asshole, dickhead", unless stuff gets exceptionally heated. I would need an entire new post in order to go into passive aggression so I won't. Second, many have given examples of how a fight made things better and worse. We, for the most part, are all aware of the pros and cons of fighting. Prime result being that you lose. That is not what I'm addressing. What I note is that in EVERYONE's situation the bullying, argument, whatever you wanna' call it, was resolved on the spot. In most cases just indicating that the conversation is going into fight territory is enough to halt a bad situation. Everyone loves to watch a good fight, no one likes to be in one. Third, and most important, is that I'm not advocating violence ALL THE TIME. This is a philosophical discussion and in philosophy there are no constants. Using words like "All" can be considered generalizations. There will be situations when (personal opinion) fighting is necessary, and when words are better. What got me to open this discussion was that many have said that non-violence (except in self-defense) is better. I simply can't fathom that thought process which is exactly whey I'm interested in it. Continue.