On Multiplayer
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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5. Because people are shit.
When you play online with someone, you're not a human being to them. You're just another little mewling voice in the magic box of secrets. If you're not in the same actual room, poised to punch them in the face, only their entertainment matters. You might as well just be an AI bot that swears. Surely playing against an actual AI bot would be preferable. They might not speak and get stuck in corners a lot, but at least they'll never ragequit, and you can program them not to shoot you, and you don't have to pay broadband internet fees for the privilege.
I'm a believer of Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory: "Ordinary person + audience + anonymity = fuckwad." I would suggest a few alterations, though, such as removing the "+ anonymity" part. And the "+ audience" part. The default state of all human beings is fuckwad. The only reason they don't always act like fuckwads is because they're afraid of getting punched. So they're not just fuckwads, they're cowardly fuckwads.
Amen. I have 3 roommates and they all have XBOX 360's while I have my Golden Child, the Gamecube. All 3 own MW2 and its like my apartments full of Samuel L. Jackson impersonators. It's pathetic guys can't we be nice to people? I spit on multiplayer and XBOX live b/c its full of racist, immature, and cowardly douchebags. Little punk white boys calling black players the N-word and people just using the F-word every chance they get. "Hey, smash that f*ckin' box." "Don't shoot mother f*cker!" "Shut the f*ck up, mother f*cker!"
When you play online with someone, you're not a human being to them. You're just another little mewling voice in the magic box of secrets. If you're not in the same actual room, poised to punch them in the face, only their entertainment matters. You might as well just be an AI bot that swears. Surely playing against an actual AI bot would be preferable. They might not speak and get stuck in corners a lot, but at least they'll never ragequit, and you can program them not to shoot you, and you don't have to pay broadband internet fees for the privilege.
I'm a believer of Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory: "Ordinary person + audience + anonymity = fuckwad." I would suggest a few alterations, though, such as removing the "+ anonymity" part. And the "+ audience" part. The default state of all human beings is fuckwad. The only reason they don't always act like fuckwads is because they're afraid of getting punched. So they're not just fuckwads, they're cowardly fuckwads.
Amen. I have 3 roommates and they all have XBOX 360's while I have my Golden Child, the Gamecube. All 3 own MW2 and its like my apartments full of Samuel L. Jackson impersonators. It's pathetic guys can't we be nice to people? I spit on multiplayer and XBOX live b/c its full of racist, immature, and cowardly douchebags. Little punk white boys calling black players the N-word and people just using the F-word every chance they get. "Hey, smash that f*ckin' box." "Don't shoot mother f*cker!" "Shut the f*ck up, mother f*cker!"
Well, I see your points. And I can't help but agree with some of them, but ultimately you're just justifying something that nobody has either the power or the will to change. I don't play much multiplayer. I leave that to my little brother and his worryingly good K/D spread on TF2. I'll play a bit of L4D2 every now and then, But I've clocked much more time on torchlight, a game worth half as much and with half the fancy software behind it. But some people do enjoy getting the highscore in a round of slayer, and that's cool also.
Of Unreal tournament and Battlefield I don't know, but otherwise I have to disagree with you. Was multiplayer Borderlands' MAIN and PRIMARY selling point? No. It was "guns, guns and more guns". Was multiplayer TF2's major selling point? Yes, you could say that since the game was built strictly for multiplayer and features no single player mode at all. Was multiplayer L4D's major selling point? Yes, but it was only one of them. How I've come to understand the main selling point was "guns and zombies. What else d'ya need?"JeanLuc761 said:
And all ou who say TF2 is the best multiplayer game ever created: I totally agree with you. I've had to take a break from it since my eyes start getting bloodshot when I play it too much. It's amazing how by simply adding classes the game is much more varied.
Well, I was all set and ready to tear into his reasoning, disappointingly, it's rather convincing and well put together.
EDIT: In retrospect, the one fault in his explanation (As many have pointed out), is that a game must stand alone on it's campaign. This is a bit short sighted as the whole purpose of a game is to provide maximum entertainment, for most people, this will me a strong multiplayer.
EDIT: In retrospect, the one fault in his explanation (As many have pointed out), is that a game must stand alone on it's campaign. This is a bit short sighted as the whole purpose of a game is to provide maximum entertainment, for most people, this will me a strong multiplayer.
Well, Yahtzee definitely had valid points for not wanting to play multiplayer.
The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory argument was one I certainly expected and can understand. It's less prevalent on the PC, but even there it's visible in spades. I hadn't considered the Australia connectivity issues, but I can certainly understand, considering that The Escapist's TF2 servers are in the UK and I'm in Canada. I also agree that a game which has a single player mode should be judged on that mode (if they don't want to put the effort into the single player, then it shouldn't even be there).
But I will vehemently insist that a game like Modern Warfare 2 should have it's multiplayer judged. Though the single player game is there, and also needs to be reviewed, the multiplayer is really the focus of the game and certainly accounts for its longevity. In many ways, the single player is just a big tutorial for the multiplayer game.
That's not to say Yahtzee needs to review it. After all, despite doing reviews, Yahtzee is largely a comedian and entertainer. If you want a thorough, unbiased review, look elsewhere.
But I do think it would be worth your while, Yahtzee, to try out the multiplayer. Sure, you'll have to deal with assholes, but if you use the typical level of asshole as a baseline, you can at least judge how much fun the multiplayer can be despite assholes, or for people who are used to assholes. In fact, a big argument with the whole "no dedicated servers" debacle is the players' ability to deal with assholes. It would certainly be worthwhile to see how this holds up in MW2, especially compared to the original CoD4:MW.
The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory argument was one I certainly expected and can understand. It's less prevalent on the PC, but even there it's visible in spades. I hadn't considered the Australia connectivity issues, but I can certainly understand, considering that The Escapist's TF2 servers are in the UK and I'm in Canada. I also agree that a game which has a single player mode should be judged on that mode (if they don't want to put the effort into the single player, then it shouldn't even be there).
But I will vehemently insist that a game like Modern Warfare 2 should have it's multiplayer judged. Though the single player game is there, and also needs to be reviewed, the multiplayer is really the focus of the game and certainly accounts for its longevity. In many ways, the single player is just a big tutorial for the multiplayer game.
That's not to say Yahtzee needs to review it. After all, despite doing reviews, Yahtzee is largely a comedian and entertainer. If you want a thorough, unbiased review, look elsewhere.
But I do think it would be worth your while, Yahtzee, to try out the multiplayer. Sure, you'll have to deal with assholes, but if you use the typical level of asshole as a baseline, you can at least judge how much fun the multiplayer can be despite assholes, or for people who are used to assholes. In fact, a big argument with the whole "no dedicated servers" debacle is the players' ability to deal with assholes. It would certainly be worthwhile to see how this holds up in MW2, especially compared to the original CoD4:MW.
Rofl. Some people don't like multiplayer. I happen to be one. Obviously, each of our own experiences will to a great extent shape our opinions-- of anything, not just of videogaming.
Yes, I've met some really cool people online, including people I now count among my dearest friends. However, my own experiences are more commonly this [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/11/7/]. It sounds as if Yahtzee's experiences are/were similar. Feel free to disagree with his stance, but you can't really invalidate it just because your anectodal evidence disagrees with his.
Read the article and use it to understand why Yahtzee chooses not to consider multiplayer when judging a game. That was the whole purpose, after all. If you're reading it as some kind of authoritative statement about videogames (and society, evidently) instead of just one man's hyperbolic thoughts on them, well then, as they say: You're Doing It Wrong.
Yes, I've met some really cool people online, including people I now count among my dearest friends. However, my own experiences are more commonly this [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/11/7/]. It sounds as if Yahtzee's experiences are/were similar. Feel free to disagree with his stance, but you can't really invalidate it just because your anectodal evidence disagrees with his.
Read the article and use it to understand why Yahtzee chooses not to consider multiplayer when judging a game. That was the whole purpose, after all. If you're reading it as some kind of authoritative statement about videogames (and society, evidently) instead of just one man's hyperbolic thoughts on them, well then, as they say: You're Doing It Wrong.
I agree with everything but the part about people being shit, for the most part the guys and girls (who are secretly guys) who act like douchebags are just having a little mean spirited fun, there is a very small minority that can be genuinely called sociopaths, but, that's true of every population.
"If the multiplayer ever becomes the main selling point, then something's gone wrong."
Wasn't this Team Fortress 2? Although yes, it came with Half Life and Portal, but TF2 is a whole game in itself, so it can't really be 'that extra bonus tacked on'.
Wasn't this Team Fortress 2? Although yes, it came with Half Life and Portal, but TF2 is a whole game in itself, so it can't really be 'that extra bonus tacked on'.
Some valid points but not all. It makes sense to have a game which is multiplayer only. Nobody forces you to play such a game if you like single player. MMOs in general are designed for the play-with-many-fuckwads ( aka WoW... World of fuckWads ) principle. They fail at single player since their design doesn't work. But that's for games which are only one or the other: SP or MP. If you are both then SP has to come first, no questions asked. Otherwise MP only is fine if this is the goal.
Hey, being a fuckwad isn't even so bad.
Once you get rid of the cowurdly part, you'll actually have fun getting punched.
And I didin't play the multiplayer. After all that Michael Bayery that SP put me through, I think I had just about enuff.
Once you get rid of the cowurdly part, you'll actually have fun getting punched.
And I didin't play the multiplayer. After all that Michael Bayery that SP put me through, I think I had just about enuff.
For the record I am defending MW2 indirectly, though I will use it as my prime example for why I like online multiplayer since you used it as an example of why you dislike online multiplayer. I do not own a copy of MW2, I have played it and found the multiplayer to be "Compelling" (to quote the robots at IGN) and generally damn good fun.
Also I know that your reviews are pure satire, but since these Extra Punctuation articles are generally more serious in nature I will humor you with a serious response. In doing so, I will touch on points that you yourself raised in your article. And thus without further ado, here is my post?
To be honest I don't really agree with much of what you say Yahtzee, I really enjoy online multiplayer mostly because I'm good at the multiplayer games that I choose to play. Even if I am new to a game and get "flattened" if the experience is good enough and the controls are tight I'll stick it out for several more rounds. Most of the time it gets better, sure you don't know all the maps to start out with but neither does anyone else who comes to the game for the first time.
Also I don't agree with people who place all human beings in the "fuckwad" category offhand. I contend that you are letting your own past negative experiences cloud your otherwise wise judgement. Call me a naive optimist but I believe that some people act kind and loving because they are kind and loving people. Sure there are plenty of ?fuckwads? out there but you don't have to look hard to find some really exceptional people.
I agree with the fact that the single player campaign of MW2 was lacking but,
I disagree with the notion that every game should have a good single player experience and not just jump head first into the multiplayer. There have been some very good games that have extraordinary multiplayer components while having a subpar single player (battlefield, starwars battlefront, unreal tournament, quakewars, etc) I would argue that the multiplayer aspect of MW2 was the reason so many people bought the game, it is also the reason why this game has become so popular.
Multiplayer may not be the most important aspect of a game, but it is a huge reason why I (and many others) will buy a game rather than rent it.
Sincerely
Some ?Fuckwad?
Also I know that your reviews are pure satire, but since these Extra Punctuation articles are generally more serious in nature I will humor you with a serious response. In doing so, I will touch on points that you yourself raised in your article. And thus without further ado, here is my post?
To be honest I don't really agree with much of what you say Yahtzee, I really enjoy online multiplayer mostly because I'm good at the multiplayer games that I choose to play. Even if I am new to a game and get "flattened" if the experience is good enough and the controls are tight I'll stick it out for several more rounds. Most of the time it gets better, sure you don't know all the maps to start out with but neither does anyone else who comes to the game for the first time.
Also I don't agree with people who place all human beings in the "fuckwad" category offhand. I contend that you are letting your own past negative experiences cloud your otherwise wise judgement. Call me a naive optimist but I believe that some people act kind and loving because they are kind and loving people. Sure there are plenty of ?fuckwads? out there but you don't have to look hard to find some really exceptional people.
I agree with the fact that the single player campaign of MW2 was lacking but,
I disagree with the notion that every game should have a good single player experience and not just jump head first into the multiplayer. There have been some very good games that have extraordinary multiplayer components while having a subpar single player (battlefield, starwars battlefront, unreal tournament, quakewars, etc) I would argue that the multiplayer aspect of MW2 was the reason so many people bought the game, it is also the reason why this game has become so popular.
Multiplayer may not be the most important aspect of a game, but it is a huge reason why I (and many others) will buy a game rather than rent it.
Sincerely
Some ?Fuckwad?
Truth be told I could live without online multiplayer. However, offline multiplayer is undervalued I find (because I have real friends in real life, honest). And in MW2 the offline multiplayer is fantastic.
Exactly the points I always bring up when asked to go multiplayer. I plain hate it and want games to have an end.
I understand Yahtzee views on multiplayer. I can't really disagree with most of it. But he keeps saying "No one really cares more about multiplayer than single player." when it is clearly not true. As far as I'm concerned MW2's campaign was just so marketing could have some pretty visuals to air. What Yahtzee should be saying is "No one I know/respect cares about multiplayer." People are surprised when the person they vote for isn't elected because "Everyone they know" voted for the other guy.
1. Because I live in a faraway kingdom of fantasy.
Yahtzee lives in Australia and Australia has shit for internet. It stands to reason that most forms of online multiplayer would have a much less consistently enjoyable experience. Elsewhere however, the pros of online play very much outweigh the cons. Outside Yahtzee's experience, multiplayer is an essential aspect to gaming that cannot be overlooked before judging a game.
2. Because of time restrictions.
Once again, a situational argument. Of course he doesn't have time for multiplayer, but a vast majority (yes, MAJORITY) does. Of course I am speaking purely from my own experience. But, I am certain my experience applies to more of the gaming community than Yahtzee's. This is also a flawed argument because "Everyone I know" prefers multiplayer to single player.
I should point out that I am a primarily single player guy. Like Yahtzee, I don't particularly enjoy starting out and getting wasted by 50 kids better than I am. But when I do get a game with multiplayer, I never back down. Every time I push through the learning curve until I am one of those 50 kids it has always, always been worth it. Getting beaten the first few games is part of the territory. It's just a challenge to overcome.
3. Because there's nothing more to see.
I stoically disagree. Any campaign has a finite experience. Multiplayer has an infinite one. Nothing ever happens the same way twice. WoW shouldn't be used in this argument since other people aren't necessarily essential to the experience. Yahtzee got to level 58 by killing bots, not people.
4. Because the single player must stand up by itself
Yes, and so must the multiplayer. There is no rule that says multiplayer must be a bells-and-wistles component. If a game has shit for single player but a Godly multiplayer then I'm going to play that multiplayer. I see nothing wrong with the single player being secondary to the experience. Yahtzee has to by default but he needs to stop clinging to the idea that focusing on multiplayer is bad game design. A good single player with bad multiplayer is bad design as well. But, if I am able to get a meaningful experience out of either then the game was worth the money. Yahtzee, by fault of living in Austalia and having no time for multiplayer is only able to enjoy half of a game. If he were able to enjoy both sides than the odds of the game being enjoyable go up.
5. Because people are shit.
I don't disagree. But if Yahtzee thinks multiplayer is just like killing AIs who curse at him than he has vastly missed the point. Sure playing online cannot compare to having the person sitting right next to you, ripe for pummeling. But, physically present or not, outsmarting, out maneuvering, and out shooting another human being is infinitely more rewarding than knocking off another NPC. Take meeting a boss in single player for example. With enough repetition, you'll know that boss' attacks and weaknesses inside-out backwards. That's because they will. not. ever. change. There is some comfort in that. You can be a pussy and stay in your comfort zone, or go and and face a living, thinking piece of shit human that takes actual brains to defeat.
So what if you can't punch them? Beat them in the game and embarrass them. If you can't do that, then you're free to not play. But don't go ignoring the fact that you are only able to experience half a game before you judge it.
I could go see a chick-flick and complain that it didn't have any action. That's not because it was a bad movie. It's because I just enjoy action flicks. The same principle applies here.
1. Because I live in a faraway kingdom of fantasy.
Yahtzee lives in Australia and Australia has shit for internet. It stands to reason that most forms of online multiplayer would have a much less consistently enjoyable experience. Elsewhere however, the pros of online play very much outweigh the cons. Outside Yahtzee's experience, multiplayer is an essential aspect to gaming that cannot be overlooked before judging a game.
2. Because of time restrictions.
Once again, a situational argument. Of course he doesn't have time for multiplayer, but a vast majority (yes, MAJORITY) does. Of course I am speaking purely from my own experience. But, I am certain my experience applies to more of the gaming community than Yahtzee's. This is also a flawed argument because "Everyone I know" prefers multiplayer to single player.
I should point out that I am a primarily single player guy. Like Yahtzee, I don't particularly enjoy starting out and getting wasted by 50 kids better than I am. But when I do get a game with multiplayer, I never back down. Every time I push through the learning curve until I am one of those 50 kids it has always, always been worth it. Getting beaten the first few games is part of the territory. It's just a challenge to overcome.
3. Because there's nothing more to see.
I stoically disagree. Any campaign has a finite experience. Multiplayer has an infinite one. Nothing ever happens the same way twice. WoW shouldn't be used in this argument since other people aren't necessarily essential to the experience. Yahtzee got to level 58 by killing bots, not people.
4. Because the single player must stand up by itself
Yes, and so must the multiplayer. There is no rule that says multiplayer must be a bells-and-wistles component. If a game has shit for single player but a Godly multiplayer then I'm going to play that multiplayer. I see nothing wrong with the single player being secondary to the experience. Yahtzee has to by default but he needs to stop clinging to the idea that focusing on multiplayer is bad game design. A good single player with bad multiplayer is bad design as well. But, if I am able to get a meaningful experience out of either then the game was worth the money. Yahtzee, by fault of living in Austalia and having no time for multiplayer is only able to enjoy half of a game. If he were able to enjoy both sides than the odds of the game being enjoyable go up.
5. Because people are shit.
I don't disagree. But if Yahtzee thinks multiplayer is just like killing AIs who curse at him than he has vastly missed the point. Sure playing online cannot compare to having the person sitting right next to you, ripe for pummeling. But, physically present or not, outsmarting, out maneuvering, and out shooting another human being is infinitely more rewarding than knocking off another NPC. Take meeting a boss in single player for example. With enough repetition, you'll know that boss' attacks and weaknesses inside-out backwards. That's because they will. not. ever. change. There is some comfort in that. You can be a pussy and stay in your comfort zone, or go and and face a living, thinking piece of shit human that takes actual brains to defeat.
So what if you can't punch them? Beat them in the game and embarrass them. If you can't do that, then you're free to not play. But don't go ignoring the fact that you are only able to experience half a game before you judge it.
I could go see a chick-flick and complain that it didn't have any action. That's not because it was a bad movie. It's because I just enjoy action flicks. The same principle applies here.
Completely off subject, but I love how I can read the first page yet the second page is blocked by my school filters. Anyway, I don't really care for online multiplayer most of the time either. "It's all about the multiplayer", to me, translates as an excuse for the single player being absolute shit.