On science's place in culture

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McMullen

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Hello,

This is my first thread. Some of you may recognize me from the comments sections of certain news articles where I tend to post walls O' text in response to some commenter's repetition of pop culture's view of scientists as evil geniuses plotting to destroy the world with black holes and zombie viruses and whatever. I thought that maybe I should take the initiative and explain why I feel so strongly about the subject, and explain where the frustration comes from that drives me to spend an hour or two every other day writing essays to people who probably don't care how well I state my arguments.

Ok, yes, I'll admit that being fucking insane and delusional is part of it. But there's more:

See, most of the criticism leveled at science and scientists comes from complete misconceptions about what science is. At the simplest level, science is a way of finding the truth, and understanding reality. The scientific method works by observing the world's behavior, coming up with an explanation for that behavior, and then testing that explanation to see if it holds up under scrutiny. If that explanation does hold up, it goes from being a hypothesis to being a theory, which is no small feat.

Any idea that can genuinely be called a theory has been questioned and tested by dozens if not hundreds of people, many of whom want nothing more than to find a way to disprove it. The presentation of a hypothesis to a meeting of scientists can sometimes be similar to a trial at court, but with up to a couple hundred prosecutors and sometimes as many as a handful of defense attorneys. The more prosecutors there are, the more likely it is that the world's best experts on the subject are among them. The prospects for an idea that is not absolutely rock-solid are grim. Some of the most important theories we have now had to go through this process and be denied many times before finding acceptance, because merely being correct isn't enough.

To hear Hollywood, the news media, the general public, and worst of all, politicians describe it though, there's no such thing as a hypothesis, and any crazy idea automatically becomes a theory just as soon as it forms in a scientist's head, no matter how unsound the idea is. The phrase "it's just a theory" is thrown about as a way to suggest that it's almost certainly wrong.

People often write off the work of scientists as the product of a couple hours, afternoons if they're feeling generous, of idle speculation. The reality is somewhat different.

The actual work of observation and data collection, and the grueling process of assembling and interpreting that data, is also a daunting task. Research projects often start at least a year in advance of the actual work. You have to figure out what your goal is, figure out what data would be useful, what methods can be used to acquire the data, whether those methods will give you good data or biased data, then you have to figure out the logistics. Travel, food, lodging, tools, facilities, bribes for corrupt customs officials (yes, this is a real thing that has to be accounted for), permits, visas and passports, assistants and porters, the list goes on. Once you've got all this figured out, you then realize that you've got nowhere near enough money to pull it off, so you have to take all your plans and logistics and present them to a grant foundation and convince them that you know what you're doing so they will give you the money. If you get this far, congratulations, you can start packing at this point.

I will leave it to this video to shorten the wall of text and give you an idea of how seriously the minute details are taken for the tiniest little thing that could be influencing the system being studied: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlyorcJ28UA

You then have to collect your data and not lose it (this can happen, and more often than you would think. I've personally experienced this when our rock samples got lost by the lab that was supposed to date them. Trust me, losing your memory card is heavenly next to that experience). When you get back home, you spend your free time sorting through the data, building graphs and spreadsheets, looking up formulas, finding relationships, making sure they really are relationships and not something that you only see because you want to see it, and then putting all of it together in a way that shows you did your homework, you didn't cheat, you didn't miss the point, and that your explanation really does make more sense than the 20 or so others you didn't think of or hadn't heard of, or didn't design your project to address.

It would also, by the way, be a good idea at some point during all this to make sure you haven't unwittingly spent the year/decade on a problem someone else somewhere has already solved.

If your work amounts to not much more than a confirmation of what's already known, then you publish your findings in a journal and go on to the next thing.

If your work is important or conflicts with others, you might want to present it at a meeting for your field. There's at least one every year and there's bound to be at least a couple dozen people working in the same field who are keenly interested in the topic you've chosen. If your work conflicts with someone else's, they'll probably be there too. Some proficiency with politics is recommended in that case. Also, everyone loves to pick apart any new ideas, so be prepared to defend yours. This is where that courtroom situation that I mentioned above arises.

There are variations depending on your field, but that's roughly how it goes.

This is all to illustrate how wrong the popular conception of scientists as people "just sitting around making crazy shit up" really is. It should also be obvious at this point that the "Mad scientist in a castle" trope really doesn't have anything to do with reality at all.

For some reason, there is a giant disconnect between this and the public. From the way people I've overheard on the bus or in restaurants or on the street or, of course, on forums speak about it, you'd think that there's no honest work being done in the making of a hypothesis or theory. Best of all, the news will often take the work of thousands of scientists from hundreds of countries working for decades on all aspects of the problem, as is the case with the International Panel on Climate Change, and present it as being on an equal footing with the major conflicting argument, made by a handful or even one person who has a science degree and works for Exxon Mobil. To the public, all that work disappears and the argument is reduced to one group's word against another group's word.

I want you to imagine Commander Shepard having about 50 years after the end of the first Mass Effect game to travel the galaxy, even visit Dark Space and take samples, photos, and videos of the hibernating reapers, find fossils of the last 20 or so species that the Reapers destroyed, find every news story that the Protheans made about the Reapers in the time that they had, download all the data they collected on Ilos, rebuild Vigil and get it to talk again, find the derelict reaper and put it in a museum, then launch it back into space again because the visitors kept getting indoctrinated, and lead people on monthly tours to the collector base so they could see first hand what goes on there. I want you to imagine that Shepard did all this, and additionally released all this information free of charge to the extranet. I want you to imagine that Shepard was not the only one doing this, but that Shepard's work was aided and complemented by thousands of brilliant and talented minds from nearly every planet in Council Space, and that the Reaper threat was acknowledged by every serious archeological, technological and historical institution in the galaxy. And I want you to imagine that after all this, Ms. Al-Jilani snidely and disingenuously brought the Turian councilor on her show to tell everyone, with finger quotes, that claims about the reapers have been dismissed. I want you to imagine that well more than half the galaxy believed the bastard.

Further, they believe that Shepard spent those 50 years doing not much more than feeding fish and listening to the tunes on the cabin radio, perhaps engaging in full sodomy simulations occasionally, and speculating idly on what happened to the Protheans when bored. Further, many suspect that Shepard is secretly experimenting with Artificial Intelligence, the Geth, and Rachni, and is going to someday either unleash them on the galaxy or lose control of them. After all, Shepard is known to have both a Geth and an AI on board the Normandy, and to have associated with the Rachni Queen before. No one remembers or thanks Shepard for anything good accomplished in the first game, kids who want to be like Shepard someday are beat up at school, though every once in a while there's an extranet video of one of the bullies getting pwned by a would-be victim who happens to be a biotic adept, and when not being portrayed in holovids as the future destroyer of the universe, Shepard is portrayed as a socially inept dork who lives below the stairs in engineering.

Now, you may have some idea of the frustration that comes with being a scientist these days.

Why worry about it? My sister points out that I'm wasting my time, that I'm never going to change anyone's mind, there are too many ignorant, intellectually lazy people out there in the world (and it really is laziness; with the internet, learning about what you're talking about has never been easier, cheaper, or faster, but few people seem to take advantage of that before making wild hysterical claims about GM foods or black holes at the LHC or other nonsense). She is of the opinion that people are too ignorant to save themselves, and we'll all be wiped out by each other or some disaster eventually and then it won't matter any more. She feels it's better that way because if we never leave the Solar System, no one else will have to put up with us, and no other planets will have to be, to use her terminology, destroyed or infected by us. She agrees with Agent Smith's reasoning on human beings as a kind of virus.

My opinion is a bit more optimistic. I don't believe that the best likely outcome has to be our destruction. We don't have to destroy ourselves, and we don't have to stay here till we die. If we leave Earth, we don't have to exhibit what Smith called virus-like behavior. The limitations that we have are real, but we don't have to be bound by them. We can learn to embrace the unknown rather than fearing it, to weigh our decisions carefully rather than choosing arbitrarily or choosing based on what we wish were true rather than what is true.

We can, if we master the impulses that are still with us from the days when we were much farther down the food chain, overcome this tendency towards ignorance by default, find a balance between the energy we consume and the energy available, and not only reach the stars, but be the kind of society that would not endanger anyone else by doing so.

This change is hampered by the spreading of ignorance and hysteria, especially about the research currently being done to both increase our understanding of the universe and to ensure that we live long enough to be able to use that knowledge. The continued demonization of science and scientists in pop culture doesn't help either. TV tropes lists "Science is Bad" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceIsBad) as an actual trope, and the hyperlinked text reading "Science is Good" goes instead to the Averted Tropes page.

I feel that it is important to try to dispel these myths and misconceptions. I'll admit I'm not very tactful when doing so, but I don't think it's appropriate to pretend that harmful opinions are worthy of respect. One positive thing I try to do in every post I make is to remind people that scientists have not, in fact, destroyed the world yet, despite having done so thousands of times in fiction. There have been no Frankensteins, zombie apocalypses, or man-made black holes in the real world. On the other hand, there is a long list of real horrors that, because of scientists, you will have an easier time with or not even face at all. The eradication of smallpox and the fact that today we can feed a number of people that would have been unthinkable a hundred years ago are substantial victories.

My own field of interest, volcanology, has saved tens of thousands of people in the last 20 years from being burned alive, buried, or poisoned to death, and it is such a minority science that there are only a handful of schools in the US that offer graduate programs in it (and the last time someone tried to not decrease funding for it, they got called out on national TV for cheap political points). Historically, one of the biggest obstacles to saving lives in volcanic disasters is the fact that people don't always believe the scientists, occasionally regard them with suspicion and hostility, and sometimes even accuse them of causing the eruptions in the first place. Of course, if a forecast turns out to be a false positive, they get death threats from angry business owners.

There's just no gratitude in this line of work. Frustration is a fairly common feeling whenever I observe the interaction between science and mainstream culture, but I am still hopeful that, barring a takeover of the education system by the creationists, we can continue onward and upward, and grow past this unfortunate backwards thinking like we have grown past so many other unfortunate cultural quirks.

For the moment, I'm not sure I can do much more than try to dispel misconceptions about this institution, one hysteric at a time.
 

DefunctTheory

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Mar 30, 2010
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First thread advice...

Don't wall it.

As for the topic... I skimmed it as best I could, and now my eyes hurt.

Science is not misunderstood. Like all things, it has been twisted to suit a purpose, and people hate that science, the purist of the pure, let it happen.

For the most part, people LOVE scientist. They love science. So I don't know what your getting at.

...ugh, my fucking eyes hurt.
 

Kpt._Rob

Travelling Mushishi
Apr 22, 2009
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Point #1) Here at the Escapist, chances are that for the most part you're preaching to the choir.

Point #2) People who are lacking enough in intelligence to misunderstand what science is, aren't likely to be swayed by even the most well worded argument.

Point #3) Even if you're talking to intelligent people, it helps to be concise. If I'm going to read a lot, it's going to be about something that I want to know more about, if you want your post to catch my attention it'd better be either a) short and to the point, or b) so mind blowingly interesting to read that if I were a junkie I wouldn't even bother to grab my next fix before I finished reading it because I was so enthralled in what it said. Best bet, go for option a.
 

McMullen

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Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
 

flagship

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As I scientist I'm deeply offended by your accusations that we Scientists aren't interested in destroying the world with Black holes, killer robots and zombies.
 

Dr. Whiggs

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McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
I recognize you from my fifth grade teacher's last name.

She was cute.

Are you?

I doubt it.
 

DefunctTheory

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Mar 30, 2010
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McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy

That's the most obvious answer.

And then, of course, there's the pharmaceutical industry (Oh, yes, scientist are participating).

We could go on, but I'm just trying to make a point.

It's not that scientist are twisting our ears or lying to us on their own accord (Though they could be for all I know), but they've allowed themselves to be bought out and used.

Not very noble, for a profession that preaches absolute truth.
 

McMullen

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Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
I recognize you from my fifth grade teacher's last name.

She was cute.

Are you?

I doubt it.
LOL! Nope. That's not my real name, I'm not your teacher, and you probably wouldn't find me cute either.
 

Chefodeath

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Dec 31, 2009
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You seem to be making a bigger problem out of this then it is OP, and your wall of text really struck me with an air of you talking down to us. Oh well, one text wall deserves another I suppose.

I think its always an inaccurate portrayl of the spirit of science to say that the popular conception of the mad scientist is inaccurate. The spirit of science, I think, its true beauty is that its not really concerned with what's good or bad or right or wrong, but simply with what is. I think the backbone of the mad scientist portrayl is a being who is removed from society and the concerns of more grounded minds by his sheer obsession to know regardless of the outcome. While I doubt there are many scientists who would take it to the extreme of creating some disaster just to find something out, I think that the scientist qua scientist most definately would, and you have to admit that he is at least part of you.

Honestly though, how bad is it if popular culture thinks more or less of you? Popular culture is retarded. The people who matter, well they're the ones who understand it, the ones who are on your peer review board. The masses might be afraid at the up and coming, but they understand that science has produced all the lovely technology that makes them so comfortable, and will be amiable enough to allow it to continue and produce more comforts. You might bring up that popular misconception sometimes leads to a hamper being put on science's march, but frankly, I think the population is justified in the use of this hamper.

Science has not been completely innocent as you suggest. I believe that what Michael Crichton said in Jurrasic Park is true to an extent, that scientists tend to do things because they can and are short sighted for future consequences. You mention the advancements in medicine that led to the eradication of small pox but forget that its antibiotics who are breeding a strain of drug resistent super bugs up for a second wind and ready to kick humanity's ass. You mention that science has made possible the ability to produce food to feed the world population many times over, but forget that this has caused said population to swell and become DEPENDENT on all that food, that should that level of food production become unmaintainable, we are going to see MASS starvation and death. Science is great, but science is not God. Its not above regulation. Frankly, that regulation helps keep you grounded I think.

So to finish up, I really just think you're blowing things out of proportion. No one's persecuting science, and your misconception in popular culture is mostly harmless, if not a bit healthy, and more than a little fun.
 

Dr. Whiggs

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Jan 12, 2008
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McMullen said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
I recognize you from my fifth grade teacher's last name.

She was cute.

Are you?

I doubt it.
LOL! Nope. That's not my real name, I'm not your teacher, and you probably wouldn't find me cute either.
If you're tall and thin then I think we could work something out.
 

DefunctTheory

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Mar 30, 2010
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Dr. Whiggs said:
InterAirplay said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
InterAirplay said:
I've now got roughly £1,300 worth of computer parts winging their way towards me now, across a nation in which some people live in abject poverty, unemployment is rising, the economy is in the shitter, and a lot of the components of the parts are mined from countries in which the populace live in squalor.
Give it to me to assuage your goofy ass conscience, Captain Killjoy.
Depends, are you a starving child from an impoverished former soviet satellite state?
Oh I'm anything you want me to be, sugar daddy.
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
I recognize you from my fifth grade teacher's last name.

She was cute.

Are you?

I doubt it.
LOL! Nope. That's not my real name, I'm not your teacher, and you probably wouldn't find me cute either.
If you're tall and thin then I think we could work something out.
Are you going to flirt with everyone tonight?
 

Dags90

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Oct 27, 2009
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AccursedTheory said:
that preaches absolute truth.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Except for that sentence I just typed...that one gets a pass. But only that one!...

There are serious problems in scientific research, like publication bias and the sociopolitical nature of funding.

I dislike popular conceptions of science as something mainly interested in solving problems. It's great if you can find ways to apply the knowledge, but at its core science is about knowledge and predictability. That last one usually isn't given enough emphasis either. A fair share of drugs on the market, especially psychiatric ones, have unknown mechanisms. We don't know how they work, but we can predict a certain degree of positive result over placebo.
 

Dr. Whiggs

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AccursedTheory said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
InterAirplay said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
InterAirplay said:
I've now got roughly £1,300 worth of computer parts winging their way towards me now, across a nation in which some people live in abject poverty, unemployment is rising, the economy is in the shitter, and a lot of the components of the parts are mined from countries in which the populace live in squalor.
Give it to me to assuage your goofy ass conscience, Captain Killjoy.
Depends, are you a starving child from an impoverished former soviet satellite state?
Oh I'm anything you want me to be, sugar daddy.
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
I recognize you from my fifth grade teacher's last name.

She was cute.

Are you?

I doubt it.
LOL! Nope. That's not my real name, I'm not your teacher, and you probably wouldn't find me cute either.
If you're tall and thin then I think we could work something out.
Are you going to flirt with everyone tonight?
Oh honey I didn't mean to leave you out. You're military right? I love a man in uniform.



Specifically this uniform.
 

DefunctTheory

Not So Defunct Now
Mar 30, 2010
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Dr. Whiggs said:
AccursedTheory said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
InterAirplay said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
InterAirplay said:
I've now got roughly £1,300 worth of computer parts winging their way towards me now, across a nation in which some people live in abject poverty, unemployment is rising, the economy is in the shitter, and a lot of the components of the parts are mined from countries in which the populace live in squalor.
Give it to me to assuage your goofy ass conscience, Captain Killjoy.
Depends, are you a starving child from an impoverished former soviet satellite state?
Oh I'm anything you want me to be, sugar daddy.
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Dr. Whiggs said:
McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
I recognize you from my fifth grade teacher's last name.

She was cute.

Are you?

I doubt it.
LOL! Nope. That's not my real name, I'm not your teacher, and you probably wouldn't find me cute either.
If you're tall and thin then I think we could work something out.
Are you going to flirt with everyone tonight?
Oh honey I didn't mean to leave you out. You're military right? I love a man in uniform.



Specifically this uniform.
Oh God help me...

Thank goodness they wont let me carry a rifle anymore...
 

Dr. Whiggs

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AccursedTheory said:
Oh God help me...

Thank goodness they wont let me carry a rifle anymore...
You don't carry a rifle anymore? Did you lose it in the war? Can they staple one back on?
 

McMullen

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Mar 9, 2010
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AccursedTheory said:
McMullen said:
Sorry, I didn't think that it would be that different from a news article or review, aside from the lack of screenshots. Wonder if I should add some...

Twisted to suit a purpose? What do you mean by that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy

That's the most obvious answer.

And then, of course, there's the pharmaceutical industry (Oh, yes, scientist are participating).

We could go on, but I'm just trying to make a point.

It's not that scientist are twisting our ears or lying to us on their own accord (Though they could be for all I know), but they've allowed themselves to be bought out and used.

Not very noble, for a profession that preaches absolute truth.
We seem to have different interpretations of that wikipedia article. I think the first two paragraphs of the article sum up the situation fairly well. The public has been led to believe there is a controversy, whereas in the scientific community, there's not much more of a controversy over climate change then there is over whether the earth is round. The controversy is political and economical, not scientific. The evidence is overwhelming, it's just that the media, industry, and politicians try to pretend it isn't so they don't have to do anything about it. I made this point in the original post.

The scientists I've heard talking about the pharmaceutical industry have harsher words for it than they do for climate change deniers or creationists. That was concerning the manner in which the industry is preventing the drugs from being as widely distributed as they should be for copyright reasons, allowing epidemics in third world countries to needlessly spread to more people. Is that what you're referring to, or is it the practice of marketing drugs for frivolous ailments?

Either way, you're painting with a bit too wide a brush. Those decisions are not made by scientists. Do you blame the testers at Activision for the company's behavior?
 

Benjamin Moore

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Nov 29, 2010
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I read your wall of text and I thank you for it.
While fiction is fiction and is used to frame some point or another, there is a tendency in this world for people to see the surface of a problem and consider themselves experts.
The irony is, the more you learn about something, the more you realise you don't know yet.

Jorge Cham addressed both sides in this one comic strip:
[a href=http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=374]PhD: Grad School makes you Dumber part 3[/a]
(previous parts:
[a href=http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=372]PhD: Grad School makes you Dumber part 1[/a]
[a href=http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=373]PhD: Grad School makes you Dumber part 2[/a])
 

Dark Knifer

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I get your point, but I don't think it's a big deal as much as you believe it to be. If people are 'twisting' the science then real scientist can stand up and say 'No, that's wrong' at least, that's what should happen on paper, could be wrong...
 

McMullen

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Mar 9, 2010
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Chefodeath said:
You seem to be making a bigger problem out of this then it is OP, and your wall of text really struck me with an air of you talking down to us. Oh well, one text wall deserves another I suppose.

I think its always an inaccurate portrayl of the spirit of science to say that the popular conception of the mad scientist is inaccurate. The spirit of science, I think, its true beauty is that its not really concerned with what's good or bad or right or wrong, but simply with what is. I think the backbone of the mad scientist portrayl is a being who is removed from society and the concerns of more grounded minds by his sheer obsession to know regardless of the outcome. While I doubt there are many scientists who would take it to the extreme of creating some disaster just to find something out, I think that the scientist qua scientist most definately would, and you have to admit that he is at least part of you.

Honestly though, how bad is it if popular culture thinks more or less of you? Popular culture is retarded. The people who matter, well they're the ones who understand it, the ones who are on your peer review board. The masses might be afraid at the up and coming, but they understand that science has produced all the lovely technology that makes them so comfortable, and will be amiable enough to allow it to continue and produce more comforts. You might bring up that popular misconception sometimes leads to a hamper being put on science's march, but frankly, I think the population is justified in the use of this hamper.

Science has not been completely innocent as you suggest. I believe that what Michael Crichton said in Jurrasic Park is true to an extent, that scientists tend to do things because they can and are short sighted for future consequences. You mention the advancements in medicine that led to the eradication of small pox but forget that its antibiotics who are breeding a strain of drug resistent super bugs up for a second wind and ready to kick humanity's ass. You mention that science has made possible the ability to produce food to feed the world population many times over, but forget that this has caused said population to swell and become DEPENDENT on all that food, that should that level of food production become unmaintainable, we are going to see MASS starvation and death. Science is great, but science is not God. Its not above regulation. Frankly, that regulation helps keep you grounded I think.

So to finish up, I really just think you're blowing things out of proportion. No one's persecuting science, and your misconception in popular culture is mostly harmless, if not a bit healthy, and more than a little fun.
The fact that Sarah Palin can get nominated for Vice President and still have the support she does illustrates very well how much the lowest common denominator matters. I think you have better faith in our politician's knowledge than they deserve. Does a series of tubes sound familiar? What about the fact that the percentage of Congress that believes the science behind Climate Change is substantially lower than the percentage of the scientific community? There is no intellectual requirement to get elected, beyond what satisfies the public, which is why public opinion matters. In this country, the belief that the earth is 6,000 years old does not disqualify you for public office, and in fact can actually improve your chances in many states.

Don't assume that I put science for science's sake over the interests of people, or that that is acceptable in the scientific community. There is a very strong stigma against that. Irresponsible behavior is a very good way to permanently destroy one's credibility, support network, and chances for getting funding. Again drawing on my field, there's a volcanologist in Arizona who still has a bad name because his macho attitude and disregard for safety got nine people killed on a research expedition in South America in the early 90s. It's looked upon as one of the low points in the history of the field.

I am not sure why you think antibiotics are a bad idea simply because they become less effective over time. It seems to me that a brief period of efficacy is better than none at all. I think I heard recently that there's a chance that a new antibiotic will be available soon that can't be resisted anyway. I agree that there is a downside to increased food production, and the amount of starvation prevented may ultimately be less than the starvation caused when that upward trend crashes. However, that crash will be certain and will come sooner if people don't wake up to the fact that GM foods and cloning are our way out of it and get over their irrational fear of growing extra arms upon eating modified foods. It's uninformed nonsense and it's going to make a bad situation worse because it's causing delays in this important technology. If we can maintain the current availability of food, which we will need GM foods to do, then we might be able to avoid uncontrolled growth and the food crash.

If you don't think anyone's persecuting science, then I think you need to visit the southern US. "Intellectual" is actually a dirty word there. No joke.
 

Dags90

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Oct 27, 2009
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McMullen said:
I am not sure why you think antibiotics are a bad idea simply because they become less effective over time. It seems to me that a brief period of efficacy is better than none at all.
Super bugs have more to do with improper usage than anything. Norway has pretty much eradicated super bugs as a public health concern through stricter controls on antibiotics and generous sick leave. One of the biggest reasons for things like drug resistant TB in the U.S. are people who don't finish their medication. Particularly the poor, the transient and the addicted.

There are problems with GM foods and cloned foods. Bananas are a good example. The bananas we eat today are all made by cloning and were selectively bred. They're also what could be grown after fungal infections decimated the entirety of the previous dominant cultivar, who were all vulnerable because they were all clones.