On the Katana and it's wielder.

[Treblaine]

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.

When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Yeah, they were called cowboys. The significance of that phrase is they widely used firearms yet were getting owned fairly often by often Bow wielding Indians, and to the few who suggested they should use bows instead of guns... lead to this phrase becoming so popular.

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

Yeah, but never underestimate having the right swagger, if can win you fights without even firing a shot by convincing the enemy they are outmatched, that's the best way to win a fight.

Maybe that's why even the real life George S Patton always carried a Single Action army on his hip, pure intimidation and bravado. I doubt he'd ever actually use such a weapon over the M1 carbine he always had handy if ambushed by Germans, but it must do something for troop morale.

 

[LondonBeer]

The katana also can't pierce chainmail. I can just tell where this is going. It's probably less nerdy nerds who like the katana a whole bunch, not realizing it's the samurai code and not the weapon that's awesome (I guess? I don't really like either one all that much, to be honest). We're probably going to see a lot less katanas and more western swords in the coming years due to people who like katanas finding out they're overrated.

Show me a nerd who can wield a claymore!

I'd say it's probably because the katana is far easier to handle than a huge european sword due to lesser weight and smaller form. I agree that in direct combat against a european broadsword the katana would most likely be fucked.

So learning how to use a specialized slashing weapon is easier than learning how to use a big Scottish broadsword.

For some reason, I highly doubt you.

Katana is only specialised in the sense in that its impractical to do anything else other than slash.

'A big Scottish broadsword' ? Would that be the two-hander warswords or the renaissance periods baskethilted broadswords?

A warsword is incredibly hard to handle requiring unbelivable skill & agility. The footwork alone is akin to dancing. Ive seen wielders hit vegetable targets on the top of stakes & not hit the stakes. Ive seen them sweep a pike formation (for play, no pikes were wounded in the course of the programme (Although several fell off)). Comparing prancing around with a single purpose letter opener to using a blade twice the size and weight with same if not greater level of control and force is simply ludicrous.

The range of techniques alone are a different creature requiring all the technique and grace of the smaller form with the demands of the longer forms. The Japanese equivalent of the warswords the Naginata also requires more skill than that of the Katana.

You sound like the cult of the blade, a spear used properly requires far more skill than a blade. Simple physics dictates that. Youll work out why if you ever lift a weapon.

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

A really high quality Katana is a weapon with great tensile strength, a litheness unsurpassed by any other long bladed weapon, and absolutely deadly in the hands of a rigiorously trained and disciplined swordmaster. It is primarily a slashing weapon, meaning it has some major downsides in the widest variety of swordsmanship, but for the art and style it was designed to accompany it is simply the most effective means of succeeding in battle against the opponents they had come up against. When a Samurai dedicated his life to practicing Iadio and the various combat forms the Japanese developed (of which there are too many to reasonably mention here), and bound himself psychologically to the blade as his soul, the combination developed a very impressive fighting force.

Now while I cannot attest that the Katana is superior in every respect and compared to later folding techniques and forging from spanish steel they became better challenged, they are certainly impressive pieces of weaponary. For their size and weight they can cut through, and maintain edge integrity, weapons greater than themselves and possess the potential to manipulate the weaknesses in plate armour, and when they are not found, the strength and wicked keeness to do significant damage to the armour itself. They are genuinely impressive weapons and the characters that are given them are supposed to possess the same intense and life consuming training that the samurai themselves went through and then some. I doubt anyone would say it's the swords doing that they are awesome.

If one was to create a character with ANY other bladed weapon however, I have no doubt that if they imposed the same aura of discipline and control they do to the Katana weilding counterparts, they could be just as and more awesome, because plenty of other bladed weapons in this world from similar era's with perseverance and mastery were just as deadly.

Also lots of nerds a weeaboos.

 

[MrJKapowey]

I like the image of the katana, but if I was in a fight then I would want this...

Spoiler: prepare for mild epicness

[http://img7.imageshack.us/i/longswordg.jpg/]

 

[Mr.PlanetEater]

Because a lot of nerds enjoy either Ninjas, Anime, or at least something from Japan so naturally we're going to see a lot of Katana love. As to why it appears in a lot of movies is simple, most American and British directors feel the Katana is an exotic weapon as it's one that a lot of Europeans weren't familiar with. It's the same thing with other oriental blades like the Philippine blades or Chinese blades.

That and it looks really damn good, but I still prefer either a Spanish style Rapier, a Claymore, or a Viking Longsword because honestly Viking > Ninja when it comes to badassness.

 

[WOPR]

Show me a nerd who can wield a claymore!

I'd say it's probably because the katana is far easier to handle than a huge european sword due to lesser weight and smaller form. I agree that in direct combat against a european broadsword the katana would most likely be fucked.

...Me?

*cough* sorry that's not fair
I'm a nerd with nerd friends that love combating eachother (boffer/airsoft)

I shouldn't say I can "wield" a claymore because I've never tried; but I can pick one up and carry it.

I will say though I prefer katanas and balisongs

but my perfect type of sword; I don't know what it's called but it's a blade that's sharp on both sides, supposedly light-weight, and has a handle like a night-stick (Capcom's character Strider wields one, but I still don't know it's name)

EDIT: I say Boffer/Airsoft because we want to combat, not kill eachother
we also have nerf but that's for those stupid battles where half of us have nerf guns and half have boffers and the half with the guns have to come into the house we set up for them and it's kinda assassin-like... Fun game, too bad I couldn't think of a name other then "Counter-Strike" at the time *sighs*

 

[whitewolf35]

Yes the katana tends to be exaggerated at times, but it is still likely the greatest sword societies have ever produced. Japan had access to some of the greatest quality of steel at the time, the most powerful being damascus steel. The samurai were so faithful and dedicated to the weapons that they spent several hours a day practicing specific cuts to become great defenders of the feudal lords they served. The sword is extremely well balanced with heavier steel at the tip and lighter steel near the handle not to mention the steel was folded several thousand times to make an edge so sharp that it could slice through multiple human bodies at once.
It is also superior to western swords because it could cut so easily. Western designs like the broadsword (if blocked) would cause the metal to rattle with vibrations and often throw the user off-balance while the katana was designed to absorb any blows so the samurai could counter-attack with great ease.
There are many other factors including the blood groove which made the sword cleaning during and after battle and I don't know how much people are familiar with the quick draw technique but let me just say this: quick drawing became such a fanatic move for the samurai that it received it's own art.

 

[Asmundr]

I personally like the katana but am a fan of western made swords (Broadswords for me ^^). The katana is just so overused in flashy movies and games that its gained a reputation as being powerful and elegant weapon.

A Rapier is also elegant as is a Claymore or any other weapon that is finely made and properly wielded.

 

[Nailz]

This has been explained on many documentary, It its very strong and is one of the most sharp and effective swords ever made, as for the samurai, as seen on the deadliest warrior was only topped by the spartan in pretty much because they could not get past that awesome huge shield.You see alot of anime and shows with samurai doing their own thing witch is kind of an insult because the name means to serve, they were to protect royalty and very important people, and to become a samurai was to be born into it. In a way its an insult to the real samurai.

I have read some comments saying Japanese steel is very weak and that is very incorrect, it is one of the strongest steels in the world. thing is, when they were making sword they noticed something.... hard steel is to brittle and would shatter easy but was very sharp, while the soft steel didnt break but was very dull so they combined them. So you know when you see that wavy pattern on a katana's blade edge thats the hard metal connecting with the soft, also the combination is also what gives it its curve, when cooled down the blade curves.

my personal favorite swords is tied between a broad sword and a katata.

Thank you for saying this.
The Japanese steel used to make katana is of an unparalleled quality even today, every single fool who called it weak is simply demonstrating why they should not involve themselves in this conversation. The forging process is unique and fascinating, involves a level of skill which most weapons being crafted do not.

Also OT:
The book of five rings.
Miyamoto Musashi.
That is all.

 

[Manchubot]

People always seem to love the swords, and in games always role with swords where is the mace love?

 

[MrAkuma201]

The Katana what can I say its a great weapon with lots of different ways too use it. Masters of this weapon can take more then 10 to 15 year too master some of the fighting styles and on top of that they are awesome XD

 

[VelvetHorror]

This:

 

[Atmos Duality]

Indeed. To explain the process would be like asking someone to fold a peice of paper over and over till they couldn't fold it anymore. Then asking them to rip it.
The slight radius of the blade makes it ideal as a slashing weapon, but little else.

Now, the two most valuable weapons that any Martial Artist will tell you to learn are the simplist. A staff and a knife. Both are far more versatile and can be used offensivel and defensively. Sorry, I've seem to gone off-topic.

Reach, leverage, and speed.
It's amazing what one can do with a staff.

Katanas were well-made because Japan had precious little usable iron to work with (ironic, considering the geological location of their island), but they were NOT wonder-swords.
The forms based around them are elegant and the form of the weapon is visually appealing (as is its "ease of use" to nerds everywhere), but in the end it's just a lateral edge.

Among good bladed weaponry, I still respect Toledo Steel far more. They had the advantage of being able to trade for Switzerland's high grade iron (among the best in the world) and it shows.

 

[Random berk]

Seems to me that although the katana is a better offensive weapon due to its cutting power, it takes a tremendously skilled swordsman to unlock its full potential. If I wanted to learn how to fight with a sword, I'd want it to be a single handed weapon that could be used to quickly slash, stab and parry while leaving my left hand free to use a shield, or a knife, or even a pistol. Something like a sabre, jian or cutlass.

 

[linkvegeta]

This has been explained on many documentary, It its very strong and is one of the most sharp and effective swords ever made, as for the samurai, as seen on the deadliest warrior was only topped by the spartan in pretty much because they could not get past that awesome huge shield.You see alot of anime and shows with samurai doing their own thing witch is kind of an insult because the name means to serve, they were to protect royalty and very important people, and to become a samurai was to be born into it. In a way its an insult to the real samurai.

I have read some comments saying Japanese steel is very weak and that is very incorrect, it is one of the strongest steels in the world. thing is, when they were making sword they noticed something.... hard steel is to brittle and would shatter easy but was very sharp, while the soft steel didnt break but was very dull so they combined them. So you know when you see that wavy pattern on a katana's blade edge thats the hard metal connecting with the soft, also the combination is also what gives it its curve, when cooled down the blade curves.

my personal favorite swords is tied between a broad sword and a katata.

Thank you for saying this.
The Japanese steel used to make katana is of an unparalleled quality even today, every single fool who called it weak is simply demonstrating why they should not involve themselves in this conversation. The forging process is unique and fascinating, involves a level of skill which most weapons being crafted do not.

Also OT:
The book of five rings.
Miyamoto Musashi.
That is all.

Yeah they work their butts off, i saw how they get the ore, they have to work in a hot room for about 48 hours straight with no sleep. That is pretty intense, then it takes months to make an average quality katana. Then they test it out to see how good it it, it is kinda interesting, they get something that would mimic or (use prisoners back in the day) a human body, then they would strike to see how many bodies it would cut in one swing, i think the average is 2 to 3 bodies then it would be called a 3 body sword, or whatever depending on how many it cut.

So yeah it is a really interesting process. Glad someone else knows their stuff.

 

[Peteron]

I think that is just because katana are used in most anime, seeing as they are Asian. Thus, these nerds will naturally lean towards them. I am more of a claymore person, but that is just me.

 

[LondonBeer]

Which begs the question :-

We know that chainmail is all but impervious to a cutting edge,(butchers & fish mongers still use chainmail mitts) requiring great force to break the linkages, how resilient would Samurai armour have been given it was designed to stop a cutting curved edge not a flat edge with a thrusting potential?

Would the lamellar absorb the forces or fracture?

The advantage of chain mail is its flexibility (which is why it is still used today) but the problem is how it's only really good against glancing blows or blades with little force behind them. Fine if you are a butcher and you aren't dealing with actual attacks, just the chance that a blade might slip and drag over your hand.

Arrows glide straight through chain-mail. Chain mail had to be of milder steel/iron just to stitch it together, while a sword could be steel. Plate armour is only slightly heavier and will completely protect against all but the most powerful arrows and most forceful melee weapons.

To absorb the force you need a hard ridged plate that will spread the force from a razor edge over a wide 10x6 inch square. Soft body armour will never protect you from high power rifle rounds as even if the fabric was utterly indestructible the bullet would just force the fabric in through the bullet hole. Even if the chain mail held up, a good swing with a samurai sword may very well cut underneath the mail from the force alone!

No its still effective, it doesnt stop force though, only the cutting edge. Plate & mail are a combination you couldnt wear plate only without leaving your joints & groin exposed.

The first good swing would bust out a few rings. The problem there is two fold. In Scotland the Wapinschaw was a yearly requirement of fighting men not at arms to demonstrate both skill and wargear. Amidst competition, the men would each display a war spear shod in iron, 12 arrows & a jack. A padded jacket usually an inch thick of columated linen stuffed with straw, down, paper, velvet (The last two were for kings ) was a neccesity to war.

Under that mail is a padded jacket that not only absorbs the blow but negates any edge that does make it into the surface. So padded jack for the win.

Secondly mail as we use it & as armies fielded it to peasant soldiers was un-rivetted. Rivetted mail is considerably harder to break than its poor mans cousin & 6 in 1 pattern mail even more so. 6 in 1 was regarded as good as rivetted mail & replaced it due to the ease of replacing rings sans rivets. 6 in 1 rivetted was very rare indeed due to cost time & the weight involved.

Even then a small cut from a blade meant to cut you in half, and a weaker hit from a broader stroke compared to the flat smaller impact area of a long blade usually heavier & faster would still suffer. Again the sword of the west is more fit for the purpose.

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.


When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Yeah, they were called cowboys. The significance of that phrase is they widely used firearms yet were getting owned fairly often by often Bow wielding Indians, and to the few who suggested they should use bows instead of guns... lead to this phrase becoming so popular.

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

Yeah, but never underestimate having the right swagger, if can win you fights without even firing a shot by convincing the enemy they are outmatched, that's the best way to win a fight.

Maybe that's why even the real life George S Patton always carried a Single Action army on his hip, pure intimidation and bravado. I doubt he'd ever actually use such a weapon over the M1 carbine he always had handy if ambushed by Germans, but it must do something for troop morale.

Does this mean in 300 years were gonna get weeabo half-wits talking about how Pattons .45 could shoot through Tiger tanks .

 

[Nick Angelici]

Katanas are very difficult to make and take a long time, this process refines the blade making it one of the sharpest swords ever. maybe thats why?

 

[Jazzyjazz2323]

Which begs the question :-

We know that chainmail is all but impervious to a cutting edge,(butchers & fish mongers still use chainmail mitts) requiring great force to break the linkages, how resilient would Samurai armour have been given it was designed to stop a cutting curved edge not a flat edge with a thrusting potential?

Would the lamellar absorb the forces or fracture?

The advantage of chain mail is its flexibility (which is why it is still used today) but the problem is how it's only really good against glancing blows or blades with little force behind them. Fine if you are a butcher and you aren't dealing with actual attacks, just the chance that a blade might slip and drag over your hand.

Arrows glide straight through chain-mail. Chain mail had to be of milder steel/iron just to stitch it together, while a sword could be steel. Plate armour is only slightly heavier and will completely protect against all but the most powerful arrows and most forceful melee weapons.

To absorb the force you need a hard ridged plate that will spread the force from a razor edge over a wide 10x6 inch square. Soft body armour will never protect you from high power rifle rounds as even if the fabric was utterly indestructible the bullet would just force the fabric in through the bullet hole. Even if the chain mail held up, a good swing with a samurai sword may very well cut underneath the mail from the force alone!

No its still effective, it doesnt stop force though, only the cutting edge. Plate & mail are a combination you couldnt wear plate only without leaving your joints & groin exposed.

The first good swing would bust out a few rings. The problem there is two fold. In Scotland the Wapinschaw was a yearly requirement of fighting men not at arms to demonstrate both skill and wargear. Amidst competition, the men would each display a war spear shod in iron, 12 arrows & a jack. A padded jacket usually an inch thick of columated linen stuffed with straw, down, paper, velvet (The last two were for kings ) was a neccesity to war.

Under that mail is a padded jacket that not only absorbs the blow but negates any edge that does make it into the surface. So padded jack for the win.

Secondly mail as we use it & as armies fielded it to peasant soldiers was un-rivetted. Rivetted mail is considerably harder to break than its poor mans cousin & 6 in 1 pattern mail even more so. 6 in 1 was regarded as good as rivetted mail & replaced it due to the ease of replacing rings sans rivets. 6 in 1 rivetted was very rare indeed due to cost time & the weight involved.

Even then a small cut from a blade meant to cut you in half, and a weaker hit from a broader stroke compared to the flat smaller impact area of a long blade usually heavier & faster would still suffer. Again the sword of the west is more fit for the purpose.

You cite cutting power as a factor & then say the curves distract you. The curves dictate the blades ability to cut effectively.

It's not the existence nor absence of a curve itself, it's the aesthetics of the curve, the type of curves. I just find it looks too wavy and naturalistic. Katana just looks like it's from the future, even though the design is hundreds of years old. It looks like a refined killing machine for a person who has trained their mind body and their very soul to kill effortlessly.

I have no idea which intrinsically cuts better but have you ever the phrase "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian"? At the time the western world really became familiar with Japanese weapons the samurai were the most pre-eminent sword fighters in the world, that (artistically speaking) infuses the weapon with a reputation. It's as much the swordsman that comes with the Katana that makes it so sought after.

A western style cavalry sabre - to me - leaves the impression of a guy with a huge moustache yelling CHHHAAAAAARGGE while impotently waving the sabre over their head.


When someone twirls a Colt Single Action Army revolver you get the impression of speed, and effortless accuracy... might not be the case but those that have wielded it before in fiction and non-fiction have left that reputation.

Consider the Japanese samurai films like Yojimbo and the Seven Samurai that have imbued the sword with a great potency. And when we are talking about art, there is that wider cultural impression that counts with not only the audience but the characters within the work. In Pulp Fiction when Butch is selecting weapons to face down some armed rapists nothing seems to instil more confidence in him than a samurai sword, more so than even a chainsaw.

The man that said "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" has clearly never faced the Persians or for that matter the English

Yeah, they were called cowboys. The significance of that phrase is they widely used firearms yet were getting owned fairly often by often Bow wielding Indians, and to the few who suggested they should use bows instead of guns... lead to this phrase becoming so popular.

Ahh fair enough aesthetically its more pleasing to you. I dont know I find the medieval swords symetry and 'bareness' more appealing, it can be given ornateness but it works just as well bare. The Katana's kind of a one shot, one look, bland wee beasty to my eyes.

Yes the Colt gives the impression of speed & accuracy but that is all, in reality fan firing was pretty inaccurate to all but the best shooters at close range. I like my toys to perform
exactly like they do on the tin

Yeah, but never underestimate having the right swagger, if can win you fights without even firing a shot by convincing the enemy they are outmatched, that's the best way to win a fight.

Maybe that's why even the real life George S Patton always carried a Single Action army on his hip, pure intimidation and bravado. I doubt he'd ever actually use such a weapon over the M1 carbine he always had handy if ambushed by Germans, but it must do something for troop morale.

Does this mean in 300 years were gonna get weeabo half-wits talking about how Pattons .45 could shoot through Tiger tanks .

Oh god no...

 

[technoted]

In trained hands the Katana was easily one of the most lethal weapons, able to cut through a body in one quick swipe, however that was in the hands of a very trained warrior. However if you gave it to half the people who worship it, they would probably break the sword after 3 or 4 swings, the precision required to get an effective blow with that sword is unbelievable.

However the sword itself is rather overated, it doesn't even scratch chainmail which is the armour they were using in Europe at the time, the blade constantly needs to be sharpened and breaks rather easily compared to other swords.

Personally give me something like a battle axe or a broadsword, that way even when the blade dulls I still have something capable of easily dispatching another person.