...on valid criticism.

[Arsen]

So, Escapers... I have a question to give thee.

First, a little background: As of now, I am currently working on a short story. It is planned (roughly) to be anywhere from seventy to possibly one hundred pages long. It involves fantasy mixed with that older style of horror and evocative setting of writing characterized by the Faulkner, Wilde, Milton, and numerous other selected favorites of mine.

Anyway, I handed my unfinished, nine page starter of a short story to five people, whom I know personally. Here are the results:

1. Person A. Very good. I like it. You're getting better each time you do this. Much improvement.
2. Person B. I LIKE IT! Your wording of (said sentence) is something I LOVE.
3. Person C. Hmmm.... I like it.
4. Person D. Very evocative, but I had no clue what was going on.

And the fifth, was the scathing review from a former friend of mine. He is quite possibly one of the most overly critical, paintaking, demanding people I have ever met when it comes to the world of literature. Let me put it this way. He's one of those types who will maraud on and on about how intellectual Garth Ennis is, but fail to see the beauty in the surrounding world through adjective, description, scenery and so forth.

Him: "You lack subtlety"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Him: "You just do..."

No explanation. In googling what the possibility of this could mean without any granted explanation, I learned what he had meant to say but utterly failed to mention. I didn't make it mysterious enough.

So with that being said, how greatly would you consider the criticism of the fifth person? Remember, he is quite hard to impress with anything, is overly critical, and likes few things in life.

Do tell Escapists, do tell.

 

[BlueberryMUNCH]

It's hard to make a judgement because we have nothing to go by in regards to your story. Thing is, nothing is perfect and you should take on every bit of criticism you can. Having people tell you how good something is will not improve you; people telling you what's not so good will.

I dunno man, I'd have a long talk with him about it to see what he'd change and what he'd do, and if you agree it's better, then sort it out. If you just think he's just talking bs, ignore it and move on. The way I see it is that you can never be too over-critical.

 

[Jonluw]

You should try with a larger sample to see if your story lacking subtlety is something several people recognize, or if it's just the bullshit opinion of one guy who has peculiar tastes.

Oh, and friends aren't really the best to ask for constructive criticism. Try some strangers.
Person 1's response does not seem reliable at all, seeing how they are comparing your writing to earlier works and seem to be too personally involved.
"This is better than what you've written before" is a pretty useless comment; particularly for a bystander like me who doesn't know whether what you've written earlier is shit or not.

It is very possible that person 5 is completely wrong, but his response is still the most important one in your sample.
Positive responses aren't worth spending much time considering, but when you receive a negative response, that's worth worrying over and actually take the time to examine whether there is any truth to it.

 

[daveman247]

Sounds to me like you have already judged the worth of his opinion :/

You could have asked him how to improve it.

As jonluw said. Your friends may just be liking it because they are your friends. And the other guy may be disliking it because he doesnt like you.

You need to find some more neutral people - emotional wise

 

[Arsen]

Would the mona lisa be as famous if everyone knew why she smiled?
You should make some questions go unanswered to let the audience fill in the blanks instead.

You are also really biased seeing as he is a "former friend" and continually criticise every aspect of him.

I...didn't mean to say former friend. He still is a former friend of mine. I think I was about to type a sentence up in the terms of "the former" in regards to what I previously wrote. Argh you OCD, argh you.

 

[Arsen]

Argh. Fuck it.

I wasn't originally going to post this, because I am slightly wary of criticism from random internet people, but what the hell: Judge me. As a matter of fact, "tear me a new asshole" with this.

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

The fifth guy compared me to Terry Goodkind. Said "He writes epic things to be epic, but they are not. He comes across as convoluted."

He did however, state "I want to put on a football Jersey and push him into the mud.." which gave me a good laugh for a few minutes.

 

[Arsen]

I dont know lacking subtlety could be a valid criticism. Maybe you were too hand holding, maybe you kept reminding people of facts. Could be any number of things.

Maybe look at your work and try and see these kinds of things to see if theres any sense from him.

Or not, im not bothered either way.

That's the thing: I have no ability to perceive outside of my own mental opinion. I need this kind of criticism, because I am lost without it. It also adds a sense of reassurance I so desperately need.

 

[Arsen]

Argh. Fuck it.

I wasn't originally going to post this, because I am slightly wary of criticism from random internet people, but what the hell: Judge me. As a matter of fact, "tear me a new asshole" with this.

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

The fifth guy compared me to Terry Goodkind. Said "He writes epic things to be epic, but they are not. He comes across as convoluted."

He did however, state "I want to put on a football Jersey and push him into the mud.." which gave me a good laugh for a few minutes.

That's a shit load of description for 1 type of being, I'm glad you aren't writing a Tolkien novel.

Anyway, it's hard to analyse the piece seeing as it could be anywhere in the book and it depends how immersed into the book the reader is.

Another thing: I love being told what something looks like. I detest not having the image dictated to me.

 

[repeating integers]

Another thing: I love being told what something looks like. I detest not having the image dictated to me.

'Tis the opposite of me, I always glaze over descriptions of what people/things look like beyond the basics and end up forming my own image of them in my head. When writing I usually tone down on description and let the reader use his imagination to fill in a lot of blanks.

Edited

 

[Arsen]

Another thing: I love being told what something looks like. I detest not having the image dictated to me.

'Tis the opposite of me, I always glaze over descriptions of what people/things look like beyond the basics and end up forming my own image of them in my head. When writing I usually tone down on description and let the reader use his imagination to fill in a lot of blanks.

Edited

Interestingly enough, I was watching a writer's workshop session where Brandon Sanderson was giving lessons. He said he loved Tolkien, loved his work, his mythology, his creations...but detested his writing style. I found it both intriguing and hilarious for a man to say this. I actually couldn't pick up the Mistborn series because I was bored with how his writing felt so basic and non-descriptive.

I think at the end of the day...the key is to combine imagery with brevity while still conveying the sense of things you wish to say.

 

[Arsen]

Argh. Fuck it.

I wasn't originally going to post this, because I am slightly wary of criticism from random internet people, but what the hell: Judge me. As a matter of fact, "tear me a new asshole" with this.

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

The fifth guy compared me to Terry Goodkind. Said "He writes epic things to be epic, but they are not. He comes across as convoluted."

He did however, state "I want to put on a football Jersey and push him into the mud.." which gave me a good laugh for a few minutes.

That's a shit load of description for 1 type of being, I'm glad you aren't writing a Tolkien novel.

Anyway, it's hard to analyse the piece seeing as it could be anywhere in the book and it depends how immersed into the book the reader is.

Another thing: I love being told what something looks like. I detest not having the image dictated to me.

That's fantastic but if you are writing a 70 page book and you use this much description for 1 element then I doubt much happens.

If your readership gets bored then all that work is for naught.

If you really look at it your book doesn't impress your friends.

Friend 1: Simply comparing it to older attempts.
Friend 2: Likes it
Friend 3: Not blown away, is apathetic
Friend 4: Doesn't even know what happened, no doubt due to over description resulting in them getting lost.
Friend 5: Didn't like it

That's only 1 confirmed like and even that sounds condescending.

Nah. I didn't give enough details for the things they have said in each portion. It was four likes, and one major dislike. Nothing "GREAT" but nothing bad.

 

[Logiclul]

Argh. Fuck it.

I wasn't originally going to post this, because I am slightly wary of criticism from random internet people, but what the hell: Judge me. As a matter of fact, "tear me a new asshole" with this.

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

The fifth guy compared me to Terry Goodkind. Said "He writes epic things to be epic, but they are not. He comes across as convoluted."

He did however, state "I want to put on a football Jersey and push him into the mud.." which gave me a good laugh for a few minutes.

So lets see..

Over-description takes away from the piece. I don't care what you like, if you're writing for other people (and you obviously are or you wouldn't be asking for opinions) then what YOU like isn't always what you should write.

Sentences are awkwardly cut off and shortened. The sentence lengths for a paragraph of description make no sense; if you're trying to paint an image in my head, don't make me start a new thought every eight words. One long, BALANCED, sentence should clean up a lot of that mess.

Quite a few awkward sentences which you need to remove/fix because they really have no place on their own in this paragraph. This likely comes from you reading the paragraph to yourself in some reading voice that you like. But if you want me to get any of that, then you need to set the scene better, because fragments like "And their eyes, oh their eyes" are amateurish at best.

And yeah, that linebreak is ridiculous.

Your friend saying you aren't subtle enough was also correct. You are describing every detail, leaving nothing to the readers' imagination. Stop hounding your fifth friend and take some notes.

 

[Arsen]

Argh. Fuck it.

I wasn't originally going to post this, because I am slightly wary of criticism from random internet people, but what the hell: Judge me. As a matter of fact, "tear me a new asshole" with this.

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

The fifth guy compared me to Terry Goodkind. Said "He writes epic things to be epic, but they are not. He comes across as convoluted."

He did however, state "I want to put on a football Jersey and push him into the mud.." which gave me a good laugh for a few minutes.

So lets see..

Over-description takes away from the piece. I don't care what you like, if you're writing for other people (and you obviously are or you wouldn't be asking for opinions) then what YOU like isn't always what you should write.

Sentences are awkwardly cut off and shortened. The sentence lengths for a paragraph of description make no sense; if you're trying to paint an image in my head, don't make me start a new thought every eight words. One long, BALANCED, sentence should clean up a lot of that mess.

Quite a few awkward sentences which you need to remove/fix because they really have no place on their own in this paragraph. This likely comes from you reading the paragraph to yourself in some reading voice that you like. But if you want me to get any of that, then you need to set the scene better, because fragments like "And their eyes, oh their eyes" are amateurish at best.

And yeah, that linebreak is ridiculous.

Your friend saying you aren't subtle enough was also correct. You are describing every detail, leaving nothing to the readers' imagination. Stop hounding your fifth friend and take some notes.

THIS is what I need, want, and desire. Then again, this is the rough first draft where I try more or less to jot the ideas down. It isn't necessarily made to be presentable. Good criticisms such as this help. They really do. Thank you, random internet deity you.

Edit - Also, I can understand the piece about the "awkward sentence structure". I suffer from a heavy bout of OCD which more or less makes my mind jumpy. There are many things I need to do in order to broaden out the images and make a more presentable style to the reader. Once again: What I see and what is actually being seen are two different details entirely...

AKA: I have absolutely no clue how I come off to others. I am deaf, dumb, and blind to such things. Makes for some awkward moments in life, I tell you.

 

[Arsen]

I would like to personally thank everyone in this thread. You guys are awesome. I value the kindest words to the most soul-shattering scoldings. Keep 'em coming...

 

[Logiclul]

I would like to personally thank everyone in this thread. You guys are awesome. I value the kindest words to the most soul-shattering scoldings. Keep 'em coming...

Well.. thank you I suppose. I shouldn't have been as condescending as I think I sounded in my critiquing post, I just got an edge from you being mean about your fifth friend who I didn't know. So my apologies for losing my calamity go out to you.

At any rate it shows you can handle criticism which is essential if you wish to be a writer.

 

[requisitename]

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

It's awfully wordy and parts of it aren't clear, even though you've gone to great lengths to describe everything. While I understand wanting to share your vision of things, a lot of what you've written could be said much more simply without losing anything.

For instance:

"They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes."

could be:

"They appeared to him briefly before fading again." Or something along those lines. Unless what you mean is more like he could see into their time as opposed to them appearing in his - you don't make that clear.. in which case, something like, "They were windows to another time, gone as quickly as they appeared." Or something. I dunno. I'm not a fiction writer!

When I'm faced with something wordy, I tend to get bored and glaze over most of it, focusing on what I deem most important. (I do this a lot with Stephen King. I enjoy his themes, but he gets far too bogged down in details for my taste.) Most people who read fiction do so to use their own imaginations.. as was said above, your descriptions are taking other people's imaginations out of the picture.

Also, it doesn't flow very well. Parts of what you've posted are very stilted, with simple, single sentences when compound or complex sentences stringing two or more of them together might be more appropriate. Remember that every period (and comma) creates a pause.

It isn't bad, though, it just needs work.

 

[Arsen]

As he walked down the roadways, the apparitions beckoned him. Many had challenged him in straying from his path. Many taunted him with their smiles, their slashes faces opened from wounds of war. Disemboweled corpses peered. Grimacing, open scars ran like rivers across their ethereal forms. And their eyes, oh their eyes. Hate filled pupils dared him ever onwards in mockery and contempt. Some outstretched their fingers upon their weapons, daring him to force their actions in this matter. Many of them had the ghastly tools of the elder centuries still lodged within their corpses. They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes. He believed it was to make him wonder and feel the disdain of it all. Their eyes, filled with the lust and want of blood, should have filled him dread.
Yet, they did not.

It's awfully wordy and parts of it aren't clear, even though you've gone to great lengths to describe everything. While I understand wanting to share your vision of things, a lot of what you've written could be said much more simply without losing anything.

For instance:

"They would appear in brief periods of time before vacating from the scenes."

could be:

"They appeared to him briefly before fading again." Or something along those lines. Unless what you mean is more like he could see into their time as opposed to them appearing in his - you don't make that clear.. in which case, something like, "They were windows to another time, gone as quickly as they appeared." Or something. I dunno. I'm not a fiction writer!

When I'm faced with something wordy, I tend to get bored and glaze over most of it, focusing on what I deem most important. (I do this a lot with Stephen King. I enjoy his themes, but he gets far too bogged down in details for my taste.) Most people who read fiction do so to use their own imaginations.. as was said above, your descriptions are taking other people's imaginations out of the picture.

Also, it doesn't flow very well. Parts of what you've posted are very stilted, with simple, single sentences when compound or complex sentences stringing two or more of them together might be more appropriate. Remember that every period (and comma) creates a pause.

It isn't bad, though, it just needs work.

King does have moments like that, though I feel his overall tag as being a guy who describes too much is exaggerated. Sometimes he does it right, sometimes it feels like a wasted effort. Then again...Wizard and Glass is one of my favorite novels of all time. Can't say anything bad about that one.

 

[Jolly Co-operator]

Hold on to every piece of criticism you can. Just file them away in the back of your mind, and show the story to more people. If the criticism only comes up once, you're probably fine. If that same criticism is dished out by multiple people, then you may want to consider addressing it. Every criticism, regardless of validity, has potential to be useful to a writer. It all depends on whether you decide to build a wall with it or just beat yourself over the head with it. (I'm not that great at coming up with metaphors, but you get the idea, I hope ;P )

 

[Bravo 21]

Personally, I wouldn't worry to much about person Five's opinion. Also can we see the story when it is finished? What you posted so far has intrigued me, and I like it. Keep up the good work.

 

[FalloutJack]

-Damn Editors!-

Always beware of the person who declares you lack subtlety while they themselves are failing to demonstrate it. Further being unable to articulate this blunt review in a sensible manner sends up even-brighter warning flags. Feel free to disregard Person #5.