One of the Major Reasons for Standardized Testing In Texas: Keeping out Black Students

Sep 24, 2008
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Satinavian said:
Obviously the school system needs change, not the testing.

Those test is to make sure that the people have the foundation needed to enter higher education. They are not meant to be a value judgement.

If the school system is not able to prepare the children for higher education, if it is not an expensive school, then the failure is there and it has to be repaired there.


What would even be the point of getting rid of the entrance exams ? Would the students that have been utterly failed by the school system have any chance whatsoever to get a university degree ? I mean, pretty much every science or engeneering degree starts with university level calculus in the first semester and build on that foundation later. If you don't understand that enough to use it after 4 months and without extra tutoring etc, you can basicaally pack your stuff and go home.
Which is why we have around 50% dropouts of science students in the first year. (And yes, most of that is because of calculus or other math topics) And that is with requirements that roughly equate to entry tests. We certainly don't want to have more students that can't make it.

We do however have other avenues that can lead to university, even for those that didn't finish school with the correct qualification. But that usually means later entry.


Ok, i have heard that the US universities treat their student more like "paying costumers" and really don't want to fail them. But i am not sure, how much of that is actually true.
Actually. No. Not really. Possibly where you come this is different, but but in America first and foremost Standardized Testing is used to Delegate funding. [https://www.theclassroom.com/standardized-test-scores-factor-much-money-school-receive-25534.html]

While schools don't have to administer annual achievement tests, they'll lose funding if they don't. Local school districts determine test content, but with the recent push toward meeting Common Core standards, states' tests are becoming more standardized. A school that consistently fails to meet Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP; measures the amount of academic growth per school) standards may not be able to access some grants and other forms of funding. After five years of failure to meet AYP standards, a school can be closed altogether.
Like I just showed with Kodak 41, if you consistently don't make the grade, you can first lose your funding making it impossible to try new methods of teaching or to make changes in staff. After that, if the test scores don't miraculously improve by themselves, the schools close.

Let's put it in another perspective. Let's talk about Chicago [https://interactive.wbez.org/generation-school-closings/].

In the time it has taken for a child to grow up in Chicago, city leaders have either closed or radically shaken up some 200 public schools - nearly a third of the entire district - a comprehensive new tally by WBEZ finds.

These decisions, defended as the best and only way to improve chronically low-performing schools or deal with serious under-enrollment, have meant 70,160 children - the vast majority of them black - have seen their schools closed or all staff in them fired.

That's more than all of the students and schools in Boston.

This is the first time numbers have been compiled for the nearly 17-year period - a generation of school closings.
Here's the thing. Those 70,160 will have to be educated at some point. And the strain of putting students into a program near by that just might have enough resources for what they have will have to cope. Kids will fall through the cracks because if these kids are coming from a failed school, there's a scary real chance that a good number of them will probably NOT be able to keep up with whatever curriculum this new school has.

The point is, most standardized tests are not a measure of how well a child has learned, but how well schools have done in teaching them. There are too many variables slated towards the school's culpability than the students. If the school fails to teach you quadratic equations, how to find the asymptotes of a function, Sigma Notation, the knowledge will not come to you at a test just because you have the capacity to do well in Math.

And personal story, I got 1290 out of 1600 on my SATs. That was low for me. Why? I had a nervous stomach back then. And it was loud. Super, super loud. And I was a teenager. I was embarrassed that everyone could hear my stomach gurgling, and after an hour and a half, I just wanted it over.

Eventually, I would speed through the section I was on, and did everything I could to keep the sound down. Pressing on my stomach, shifting in my chair, praying to something it would stop so I could just focus on my test.

Sure, it's a decent score. But I really, REALLY can't focus on that stupid exam because I was a teen and more important to me was what these strange kids who I'll never see again would think of me with my stomach being so loud.

Standardized Tests give you a snapshot of each child on that day. And on any day, you can have a multitude of things affect you that seem like the most important thing in the world that no one has ever dealt with before because you're 16 and you know nothing of the real world.

Now, let's remove just the fact that these children has had their lives completely up-ended by just the virtue of their birth. Add to the fact that there are many (some in these very forums) that use test scores and drop-outs and 'failure' in the academic achievements to say "Blacks don't care about Education" and use such ideas to further biases against them.

It gets worse for these children, is what I'm saying.

It isn't so much that you get rid of standardized tests forever and everything will be fine. But this current testing creates a gulf that will keep the impoverished down. It's as simple as that. While we're talking about conjecture and ramifications, in one city alone, 70,160 (mostly black) students are feeling the brunt of their educational system failing them all at once.

In just one city. There are tens of thousands of cities in America. I doubt Chicago is the only city like that.
 

Satinavian

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ObsidianJones said:
Actually. No. Not really. Possibly where you come this is different, but but in America first and foremost Standardized Testing is used to Delegate funding. [https://www.theclassroom.com/standardized-test-scores-factor-much-money-school-receive-25534.html]

While schools don't have to administer annual achievement tests, they'll lose funding if they don't. Local school districts determine test content, but with the recent push toward meeting Common Core standards, states' tests are becoming more standardized. A school that consistently fails to meet Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP; measures the amount of academic growth per school) standards may not be able to access some grants and other forms of funding. After five years of failure to meet AYP standards, a school can be closed altogether.
Like I just showed with Kodak 41, if you consistently don't make the grade, you can first lose your funding making it impossible to try new methods of teaching or to make changes in staff. After that, if the test scores don't miraculously improve by themselves, the schools close.
OK, now that is really messed up. You actually cut funding to schools where children struggle and have below average test results ?

How could that ever possibly have any other outcome than making the differences worse and creating good and bad schools even where they didn't exist before ? Aside from forcing the schools to teach specifically for the tests to cheat the system, which is surely a bad outcome as well.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Satinavian said:
You actually cut funding to schools where children struggle and have below average test results ?
Yup. That's just the tip of the iceberg, too.

School funding otherwise comes from local property taxes which are inherently regressive, thus wealthy and suburban districts have an overabundance of funding and are not reliant on state or federal grants, whereas poor, rural and urban, districts may be solely reliant on state and federal grants. So, any time state or federal funding is cut, wealthy districts are barely impacted if at all while poor schools are completely fucked. Under a regime of testing-based funding allocation, schools that are overachieving because they're already well-funded are receiving additional grants they don't actually need, while poorly-funded schools are forced to accept cuts they can't afford.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Eacaraxe said:
Satinavian said:
You actually cut funding to schools where children struggle and have below average test results ?
Yup. That's just the tip of the iceberg, too.

School funding otherwise comes from local property taxes which are inherently regressive, thus wealthy and suburban districts have an overabundance of funding and are not reliant on state or federal grants, whereas poor, rural and urban, districts may be solely reliant on state and federal grants. So, any time state or federal funding is cut, wealthy districts are barely impacted if at all while poor schools are completely fucked. Under a regime of testing-based funding allocation, schools that are overachieving because they're already well-funded are receiving additional grants they don't actually need, while poorly-funded schools are forced to accept cuts they can't afford.
Springboarding off of this point, not only is it as damaging as Eacaraxe says when Federal funding is cut, we need to talk about how it's unfairly allotted in the first place [https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-06-01/title-i-rich-school-districts-get-millions-in-federal-money-meant-for-poor-kids]

Like many of the laws passed during the height of the civil rights movement, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act sought to right decades of injustices largely rooted in unequal access to resources.

"As a son of a tenant farmer, I know that education is the only valid passport from poverty," said President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965, when he signed the law on the lawn in front of the one-room schoolhouse where he grew up in rural Texas.

"By passing this bill," he continued, "we bridge the gap between helplessness and hope for more than 5 million educationally deprived children."

Title I, the largest federal K-12 program, was how Johnson planned to do that. And since children from poor families often enter schools with a host of more-costly educational needs - from less exposure to reading and math to social, emotional and nutritional problems - it's important the limited federal dollars are funneled to those who need them most, he reasoned.

How is it then that a school district like Nottoway, with a child poverty rate of 30 percent, receives so much less in federal support than Fairfax, one of the wealthiest districts in the country?

The answer lies in a complicated and outdated formula that's used to distribute the Title I money - a formula that's resulted in a series of significant funding discrepancies that can shortchange school districts with high concentrations of poverty, and benefit larger districts and big urban areas instead of poorer, rural districts and small cities.

"The places that are less poor are getting more money per poor kid," says Nora Gordon, an associate professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown University who recently conducted an analysis of the Title I program for The Hamilton Project. "This is what happens when you have four different formulas that are very opaque and interact in different ways. You can have a lot of things in the law that seem like a good idea, but the net result is not a progressive one."

In fact, the net result often means that in addition to the formula overlooking poor rural school districts, like Nottoway, it also shortchanges smaller high-poverty urban districts, like Flint, Michigan, which similarly faces challenges that affluent districts often don't, such as dated facilities and teacher shortages.

Discrepancies are also visible in the amount of Title I money districts receive per poor child.

Virginia's Mecklenburg County, for example, with a child poverty rate of 30 percent, receives $1,000 per poor student through Title I - the same amount as poor students in York County, where the child poverty rate is less than 6 percent.

To be sure, when policymakers crafted the current formula in 2001 as part of the No Child Left Behind Act, they did so intending to correct a formula that was directing even fewer dollars to concentrations of poor students than it does today - one that allowed Claiborne Parish in Louisiana, with a child poverty rate of 36 percent, to infamously use its Title I funds to build not one, but two Olympic-sized swimming pools for students.

But the formula has proven a sort of intractable beast - one that politicians and policymakers have had little success altering, despite its glaring shortcomings.

"In the context of deeply inadequate funding overall, formula changes are always seen as a zero sum game," says Michael Dannenberg, director of strategic initiatives for policy at Education Reform Now. "More money for one district or state is coming at the expense of needy children in someone else's district or state."

"Politically it's very hard," he says. "It's not impossible, but it's very hard."

Dannenberg would know. He first tried - and failed - to change the formula while working for former Sen. Clairborne Pell of Rhode Island. Years later, as a senior policy adviser for Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, Dannenberg was part of the push to update the formula as part of No Child Left Behind. That version is still used today.

"To be clear, the wealthiest school districts are getting more per Title I child than high poverty school districts," he says. "But the effort to improve targeting of Title I funding [to concentrations of poor students] was realized in part as a result of the No Child Left Behind Act. We had a degree of success, but not nearly as much as one would hope."
Because Politicians have children. And what school districts are they going to? The poor, undeveloped, under-staffed, and decaying school districts? Nope. They are going to the Wealthy School Districts. With the children of donors. That Federal Money will go to their children. And not only will that benefit that Politician's family, but their only career as they get more money for campaigning.

You want a quick solution? Force every Politician's child to have to go to school in the poorest district accessible to the Governor's Residence. You'll start seeing equal funding happen real quick.

But, hey, let's bring it full circle. Chicago Teachers are on their 17th day of Strike [https://www.npr.org/2019/10/16/770809022/chicago-teachers-will-go-on-strike-capping-years-of-social-justice-activism]. As I said previously, through a direct link of school closing after receivership, Thousands upon Thousands of Teachers are overworked and underpaid trying to take on the load of some of these displaced students.

In 2012, the union published a manifesto called the Schools Students Deserve that detailed the need for lower class sizes and more staff, such as librarians, social workers and counselors.

In the last two contract fights, the union brought up these issues, but they also had to concentrate on protecting their members whose jobs were being threatened by school closings and the opening of charter schools. The school district also had a budget deficit that made it difficult to argue for more resources.

This year, they saw an opening to try to win big on these social justice issues. The school district has more money after a change in the state's funding formula and Lightfoot has said she believes schools need additional resources. The union also feels compelled to push these demands after years of budget cuts that led to staff losses in schools.
This isn't a rogue statement. The United States have long felt the pain of a lack of funding and paying the least they can get away with to the most important people in this world: The Teachers. Because you do not get Doctors, Lawyers, Presidents, Engineers, and the rest without a Teacher.

With the amount of work and pressure Teachers have to do just with an underfunded class with unreal class sizes... these people have to get more jobs just to pay the rent [https://time.com/longform/teaching-in-america/].

Hope Brown can make $60 donating plasma from her blood cells twice in one week, and a little more if she sells some of her clothes at a consignment store. It's usually just enough to cover an electric bill or a car payment. This financial juggling is now a part of her everyday life - something she never expected almost two decades ago when she earned a master's degree in secondary education and became a high school history teacher. Brown often works from 5 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her school in Versailles, Ky., then goes to a second job manning the metal detectors and wrangling rowdy guests at Lexington's Rupp Arena to supplement her $55,000 annual salary. With her husband, she also runs a historical tour company for extra money.

"I truly love teaching," says the 52-year-old. "But we are not paid for the work that we do."

That has become the rallying cry of many of America's public-school teachers, who have staged walkouts and marches on six state capitols this year. From Arizona to Oklahoma, in states blue, red and purple, teachers have risen up to demand increases in salaries, benefits and funding for public education. Their outrage has struck a chord, reviving a national debate over the role and value of teachers and the future of public education.

For many teachers, this year's uprising is decades in the making. The country's roughly 3.2 million full-time public-school teachers (kindergarten through high school) are experiencing some of the worst wage stagnation of any profession, earning less on average, in inflation-?adjusted dollars, than they did in 1990, according to Department of Education (DOE) data.

Meanwhile, the pay gap between teachers and other comparably educated professionals is now the largest on record. In 1994, public-school teachers in the U.S. earned 1.8% less per week than comparable workers, according to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a left-leaning think tank. By last year, they made 18.7% less. The situation is particularly grim in states such as Oklahoma, where teachers' inflation-adjusted salaries actually decreased by about $8,000 in the last decade, to an average of $45,245 in 2016, according to DOE data. In Arizona, teachers' average inflation-adjusted annual wages are down $5,000.

The decline in education funding is not limited to salaries. Twenty-nine states were still spending less per student in 2015, adjusted for inflation, than they did before the Great Recession, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, leaving many public schools dilapidated, overcrowded and reliant on outdated textbooks and threadbare supplies.

To many teachers, these trends are a result of a decades-long and bipartisan war on public education, born of frustration with teachers' unions, a desire to standardize curricula and a professed commitment to fiscal austerity. This has led to a widespread expansion of charter schools, which are publicly funded but privately operated, and actions such as a move in the Wisconsin legislature in 2011 to strip teachers' pensions and roll back collective bargaining rights. This year, Colorado lawmakers voted to raise teachers? retirement age and cut benefits.
Essentially, all of these things are tied to two things. The Politicians and the Voter.

The Voter wants to hear good things. And they remember that Children are our future, and that education is the best way forward. Now, while you can't sit down and hear everything about little Devon's life and how his educational journey has led him to find out what's the best thing for him... you can make him a Percentage. Let's say he was a 78 last year. But this year, he's a 83.

My word. The Politicians draconian plans are working! There was an increase of 5 points! That's HUGE! All these points are going up! Stay the course! No more money put into the equation, we have ourselves a winner!

Devon was moved from higher level math to a lower level this year. That C minus he was rocking in Pre-Calculus because he couldn't get the help he needed became a B+ because he's in a remedial math.

But that literally doesn't matter, because all we see is the upwards momentum. Numbers went up. Happy days.

We are not raising educated students. We are raising Test Takers. We are not investing in their future, we're telling those foolhardy enough to be educators to go out into the parking lot, gather some rocks, and somehow figure out a way to use that to make our next batch of Adults who will have to shoulder the responsibility of running this country.

Then we give them an arbitrary guideline via standardized testing. And though a lack of funding to supply these students with necessary resources, enough teachers, and help if they need it... hell, if you don't get us the scores we want, we have to punish you with an even bigger lack of funding and expect you to do better. If not, hey, you must have not wanted it enough so there goes your school.

People in the future will study this and call America Barbaric for how they treated their students. And my only problem with that is that it will take the future for people to finally see that sentiment to be absolutely correct.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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ObsidianJones said:
Dreiko said:
Standardized testing exists in racially homogeneous nations just as much as it does in a melting pot like America. I can't help but see it as an excuse to say that it's something that people came up with in any notable part so that they can get to discriminate.


Testing is mainly important in countries with strong social welfare systems, where you get public universities like Tokyo U. being the best schools in the country, and so you get a ton of students participate in the testing to get access to high quality free education.


I can see them using it in part because of its racial outcomes and them taking those outcomes into consideration, sure, but to just throw away a practice that is both fair and recognized worldwide because it can be weaponized against some people is to diminish our species as a whole.
Without insult, that is simply hyperbole.

The nation didn't suddenly have better Engineers out of the gate because of Standardized testing. Nor Doctors or Lawyers. Standardized Testing hasn't brought out anything unique to it's implementation. It's now simply tradition. I had to go through it when I was younger, now so do my kids.

Lastly, and probably most importantly... You're God Damned Right we should get rid of a practice that IS CONSTANTLY being weaponized against a particular Demographic Without Fail. If you want your best and your brightest leading, you have to realize they come from all walks of life. If you set a gate that favors one side of the population, you are leaving potential leaders and game changers on the table.

That is horribly damaging to consider allowing, especially when stated as "but to just throw away a practice that is both fair and recognized worldwide because it can be weaponized against some people is to diminish our species as a whole."

You can not have something 'fair' that is being weaponized against a segment of a population. Which is proved by the very government who monitor the educational conditions of the populous who must take those tests.

You understand that, right?
Sure you can. Basketball is fair and that fairness results in dominance of one particular group. You can't simply say something is unfair because some people do better than others by a whole lot. In academics the key is that you get the best at something, whether they're all one race or not is wholly irrelevant. To just assume with no evidence that we in fact are not getting the best and the brightest, just because of a lack of diversity, despite this system being successfully used to do just that in racially homogeneous nations all over the world, is to imply that the system is faulty for no good reason.


Notice, it's true that based on your background you may have a harder time matching someone who comes from privilege, but you know what? That fact doesn't actually make you one smidgen of a better brain surgeon. Also, it's something entirely class-based. It just seems to be race-based because there's a larger proportion of lower class black people in America whereas Asians who dominate in higher education also are one of the richest groups.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Dreiko said:
Sure you can. Basketball is fair and that fairness results in dominance of one particular group. You can't simply say something is unfair because some people do better than others by a whole lot. In academics the key is that you get the best at something, whether they're all one race or not is wholly irrelevant. To just assume with no evidence that we in fact are not getting the best and the brightest, just because of a lack of diversity, despite this system being successfully used to do just that in racially homogeneous nations all over the world, is to imply that the system is faulty for no good reason.


Notice, it's true that based on your background you may have a harder time matching someone who comes from privilege, but you know what? That fact doesn't actually make you one smidgen of a better brain surgeon. Also, it's something entirely class-based. It just seems to be race-based because there's a larger proportion of lower class black people in America whereas Asians who dominate in higher education also are one of the richest groups.
You know why your Basketball Analogy doesn't work?

Because the rules are fair in a bubble. But if I take my 6'2 frame (nowhere tall enough for Professional Basketball) and put me with a class of 4rd graders? I'm dominating. The team that I'm on is dominating. I'm going to win.

There's a reason weight classes are a thing in Boxing. Boxing is Boxing. Nothing below the belt, you can only make contact with your opponent with your knuckles against their body, come out swinging. But at 6'2", 220, going against a 5'5" 140 welterweight is unbalanced.

And more to the point, say you have a reality tv show. You take two teams of complete novices. You tell them they have to Build a two story Victorian House with all the modern amenities in 4 months. Team A gets to ask architects, engineers, and electricians, gets actual building materials, access to the internet with up to date plans, and state of the art tools... and Team B gets a few old textbooks, 3 shop teachers, an Axe with limited access to trees in the surrounding area, 4 hammers and some nails.

Every 2 weeks, Both teams have to demonstrate their abilities and have it judged by a panel in terms aesthetics and overall build quality. If they do well, they get more resources. If they do poorly, they get it taken away.

Which one of these teams will honestly win?

I'm not saying something is unfair because some other people can't do it. I'm saying something is unfair because from Birth, a good amount of the population doesn't have the capability to know if they can or can't do something because those opportunities are not even afforded to them. I can't do well beyond Algebra is math beyond Algebra isn't taught to me. But I'm still going to be brought in and tested on my ability to do beyond Algebra regardless because that's the system we're born in.

The idea is mind-boggling to suggest we can carry other findings from one type of entity and assume it should work just as well for another. That's akin to me stating that a western therapist would work just as well in America as he or she would work in Japan, when the West focuses more about Individual Well Being and Japan focuses more on the Well-being of the Community and the Individual's part in maintaining that.

And lastly, all I've been saying is that this is a poverty situation. And that it just so happens that a disproportionate amount of minorities happen to be in poverty. There are racial components, but it doesn't always have to be as bombastic as "All people with higher melanin counts must suffer". It can easily be "They aren't us, so I don't have as much sympathy".
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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ObsidianJones said:
Dreiko said:
Sure you can. Basketball is fair and that fairness results in dominance of one particular group. You can't simply say something is unfair because some people do better than others by a whole lot. In academics the key is that you get the best at something, whether they're all one race or not is wholly irrelevant. To just assume with no evidence that we in fact are not getting the best and the brightest, just because of a lack of diversity, despite this system being successfully used to do just that in racially homogeneous nations all over the world, is to imply that the system is faulty for no good reason.


Notice, it's true that based on your background you may have a harder time matching someone who comes from privilege, but you know what? That fact doesn't actually make you one smidgen of a better brain surgeon. Also, it's something entirely class-based. It just seems to be race-based because there's a larger proportion of lower class black people in America whereas Asians who dominate in higher education also are one of the richest groups.
You know why your Basketball Analogy doesn't work?

Because the rules are fair in a bubble. But if I take my 6'2 frame (nowhere tall enough for Professional Basketball) and put me with a class of 4rd graders? I'm dominating. The team that I'm on is dominating. I'm going to win.

There's a reason weight classes are a thing in Boxing. Boxing is Boxing. Nothing below the belt, you can only make contact with your opponent with your knuckles against their body, come out swinging. But at 6'2", 220, going against a 5'5" 140 welterweight is unbalanced.

And more to the point, say you have a reality tv show. You take two teams of complete novices. You tell them they have to Build a two story Victorian House with all the modern amenities in 4 months. Team A gets to ask architects, engineers, and electricians, gets actual building materials, access to the internet with up to date plans, and state of the art tools... and Team B gets a few old textbooks, 3 shop teachers, an Axe with limited access to trees in the surrounding area, 4 hammers and some nails.

Every 2 weeks, Both teams have to demonstrate their abilities and have it judged by a panel in terms aesthetics and overall build quality. If they do well, they get more resources. If they do poorly, they get it taken away.

Which one of these teams will honestly win?

I'm not saying something is unfair because some other people can't do it. I'm saying something is unfair because from Birth, a good amount of the population doesn't have the capability to know if they can or can't do something because those opportunities are not even afforded to them. I can't do well beyond Algebra is math beyond Algebra isn't taught to me. But I'm still going to be brought in and tested on my ability to do beyond Algebra regardless because that's the system we're born in.

The idea is mind-boggling to suggest we can carry other findings from one type of entity and assume it should work just as well for another. That's akin to me stating that a western therapist would work just as well in America as he or she would work in Japan, when the West focuses more about Individual Well Being and Japan focuses more on the Well-being of the Community and the Individual's part in maintaining that.

And lastly, all I've been saying is that this is a poverty situation. And that it just so happens that a disproportionate amount of minorities happen to be in poverty. There are racial components, but it doesn't always have to be as bombastic as "All people with higher melanin counts must suffer". It can easily be "They aren't us, so I don't have as much sympathy".

Having the capability to gauge whether or not you can do something is part of what goes into defining whether or not you can or can't do it. It's not fair but if you're not born with a high enough IQ for example, you can never do a bunch of jobs that require high IQ. There's this part of chance that's always in play and being born with a photographic memory or a perfect pitch hearing is just as unfair to every other person who'd be competing with you but who was born just a normal average person...but when you're looking at who the best person for a job is you won't really care about any of this and you'll jump to the person who was born lucky because your life may literally depend on it.



Your example with playing a game against the gradeschoolers doesn't fit because you're focusing on whether or not the two competing sides are fairly paired. That is NOT what the testing is focusing on. The testing is focusing on the absolute top performance, irrespective of the parameters that go into achieving this. Bring up weight classes in this context is to imply that there's a eugenics-style racial advantage at play that we need to regulate with special rules.

The standardized testing isn't there to gauge anything beyond how good the houses that the reality show people built are because someone will in fact actually have to live in them and they can't be living in a crappy house that'll fall on them and kill them. At that point we don't really care about why the house will kill the residents any more.

No matter how unfairly or undeservedly he got his skill there, people will still always pick the doctor who has never killed a patient when given the opportunity. People won't risk their life to give a chance to the doctor who has killed every third patient just because he may have had circumstances preventing him from becoming that good of a doctor in his past.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Dreiko said:
Having the capability to gauge whether or not you can do something is part of what goes into defining whether or not you can or can't do it. It's not fair but if you're not born with a high enough IQ for example, you can never do a bunch of jobs that require high IQ. There's this part of chance that's always in play and being born with a photographic memory or a perfect pitch hearing is just as unfair to every other person who'd be competing with you but who was born just a normal average person...but when you're looking at who the best person for a job is you won't really care about any of this and you'll jump to the person who was born lucky because your life may literally depend on it.

Your example with playing a game against the gradeschoolers doesn't fit because you're focusing on whether or not the two competing sides are fairly paired. That is NOT what the testing is focusing on. The testing is focusing on the absolute top performance, irrespective of the parameters that go into achieving this. Bring up weight classes in this context is to imply that there's a eugenics-style racial advantage at play that we need to regulate with special rules.

The standardized testing isn't there to gauge anything beyond how good the houses that the reality show people built are because someone will in fact actually have to live in them and they can't be living in a crappy house that'll fall on them and kill them. At that point we don't really care about why the house will kill the residents any more.

No matter how unfairly or undeservedly he got his skill there, people will still always pick the doctor who has never killed a patient when given the opportunity. People won't risk their life to give a chance to the doctor who has killed every third patient just because he may have had circumstances preventing him from becoming that good of a doctor in his past.
We're circling back and forth. I'll say my thing. You'll say your thing. And then we'll end it like Gentlemen.

IQ is an innate quality that people are born with. Poverty is a condition that can be helped, but instead is being exploited in the worst way. Where funding that was slated for these underprivileged people is actively being siphoned to benefit the wealthiest of us. I've already mentioned and linked to many sources that states that Standardized Testing is a measured used by many state governments to divert funding. If you don't want to accept that, it's your life and your prerogative.

But that doesn't change the countless schools that were denied funding due to test scores, or were closed due to poor test scores. That's not measuring excellence. Because if it was, it would remain a penalty to just the individual child who took the test. But in reality, the penalty goes to the school entire. Making it a measurement of what funding and resources that will be allocated.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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ObsidianJones said:
Springboarding off of this point, not only is it as damaging as Eacaraxe says when Federal funding is cut, we need to talk about how it's unfairly allotted in the first place [https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-06-01/title-i-rich-school-districts-get-millions-in-federal-money-meant-for-poor-kids]

[...]

People in the future will study this and call America Barbaric for how they treated their students. And my only problem with that is that it will take the future for people to finally see that sentiment to be absolutely correct.
Yup. I've shared my story about my stint working as a standardized test grader here in the past and I'm not particularly apt to share it again, but suffice to say that was a damned soul-crushing job because you see for yourself exactly how bleak the country's educational system is in a way not easily obfuscated by damned lies and statistics.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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ObsidianJones said:
Dreiko said:
Having the capability to gauge whether or not you can do something is part of what goes into defining whether or not you can or can't do it. It's not fair but if you're not born with a high enough IQ for example, you can never do a bunch of jobs that require high IQ. There's this part of chance that's always in play and being born with a photographic memory or a perfect pitch hearing is just as unfair to every other person who'd be competing with you but who was born just a normal average person...but when you're looking at who the best person for a job is you won't really care about any of this and you'll jump to the person who was born lucky because your life may literally depend on it.

Your example with playing a game against the gradeschoolers doesn't fit because you're focusing on whether or not the two competing sides are fairly paired. That is NOT what the testing is focusing on. The testing is focusing on the absolute top performance, irrespective of the parameters that go into achieving this. Bring up weight classes in this context is to imply that there's a eugenics-style racial advantage at play that we need to regulate with special rules.

The standardized testing isn't there to gauge anything beyond how good the houses that the reality show people built are because someone will in fact actually have to live in them and they can't be living in a crappy house that'll fall on them and kill them. At that point we don't really care about why the house will kill the residents any more.

No matter how unfairly or undeservedly he got his skill there, people will still always pick the doctor who has never killed a patient when given the opportunity. People won't risk their life to give a chance to the doctor who has killed every third patient just because he may have had circumstances preventing him from becoming that good of a doctor in his past.
We're circling back and forth. I'll say my thing. You'll say your thing. And then we'll end it like Gentlemen.

IQ is an innate quality that people are born with. Poverty is a condition that can be helped, but instead is being exploited in the worst way. Where funding that was slated for these underprivileged people is actively being siphoned to benefit the wealthiest of us. I've already mentioned and linked to many sources that states that Standardized Testing is a measured used by many state governments to divert funding. If you don't want to accept that, it's your life and your prerogative.

But that doesn't change the countless schools that were denied funding due to test scores, or were closed due to poor test scores. That's not measuring excellence. Because if it was, it would remain a penalty to just the individual child who took the test. But in reality, the penalty goes to the school entire. Making it a measurement of what funding and resources that will be allocated.

Just to be clear, my position on funding is that even without it being diverted for any reason it's still too little anyways and I support a massive increase of funding. I believe if you do that you will also eliminate the need to divert any funding since everyone will have enough and they won't need to try to siphon.

But yeah, if you wanna focus on that, focusing on public funding and where our taxes go to is the thing to go for. You don't really need to make it into a racial issue to have it be an issue. In fact, I support basically every socialist policy you can think of outside of the explicitly racial ones because half the time it feels like people are more concerned with achieving miserable equity than prosperous variance that'll uplift everyone.
 

Thaluikhain

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Dreiko said:
I believe if you do that you will also eliminate the need to divert any funding since everyone will have enough and they won't need to try to siphon.
Need perhaps, but won't stop people wanting and trying because of that.

Dreiko said:
But yeah, if you wanna focus on that, focusing on public funding and where our taxes go to is the thing to go for. You don't really need to make it into a racial issue to have it be an issue. In fact, I support basically every socialist policy you can think of outside of the explicitly racial ones because half the time it feels like people are more concerned with achieving miserable equity than prosperous variance that'll uplift everyone.
There's certainly problems with the US education system (and everywhere else) that aren't due to racism that are long due fixing, yes, but if nobody fixes the ones that are due to racism they tend not to get fixed.
 

Agema

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ObsidianJones said:
IQ is an innate quality that people are born with.
No, IQ is a test measurement: performance in that test it can be improved by things like education and practice, or altered by personal circumstance.

Intelligence is at least substantially something people are born with... but intelligence is complex. What even really is it? It's not just computing power, it represents perhaps attention, memory and concentration as well. And what sort of intelligence? Why are some intelligent people hugely creative, but not others, and what about different intelligence in different forms?

We also know that intelligence is affected by circumstance. Sleep badly? That's you less intelligent for the day. Stressed, depressed? You'll be less intelligent whilst you are. We also know that intelligence can be developed. Poor nutrition is likely to stunt mental development as well as physical. Particularly for children, there's a developmental angle - kids will end up smarter if they are intellectually stimulated. (As rodents perform better on cognitive tests if raised in cages with toys and things to play with.)

Poverty certainly costs. If measured by IQ, it's a fair chunk of points probably permanently off IQ from lack of developmental opportunities stunting growth during childhood, and a fair chunk chronically suppressed (if theoretically recoverable) from stress, anxieties, illness, distractions and difficulties of a life of constant struggle.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Agema said:
No, IQ is a test measurement: performance in that test it can be improved by things like education and practice, or altered by personal circumstance...
To take that one step further, it's largely an arbitrary value assigned based upon performance in one of several narrowly-constructed aptitude tests for spatial reasoning, short-term memory, analytical thinking, and mathematical reasoning. It's an effective tool for predicting performance in STEM fields and STEM-related activities...but that's more or less the beginning and end of it. One of the biggest forsaken (extreme emphasis on forsaken) opportunities for conversation in the wake of the James Damore fiasco, were the limitations of IQ testing and the cultural biases which IQ testing both are based upon and perpetuate.