Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[Karathos]

Because it's only 2016 and we're still not used to competent female characters.

I was waiting for the inevitable "HEY GUYS IT'S THE CURRENT YEAR OKAY. THE -CURRENT YEAR-" as if that means something in a world where people are still being crucified and sold as slaves.

There's a very important distinction that needs to be made between a character being competent and stepping into Mary Sue territory. When characters immediately learn how to use completely foreign weapons and equipment without any prior knowledge being clear it's not competence, it's the first red flag on the way to a Mary Sue character.

Rey is very far from being one, and I expect the next movie to probably answer some of the reasons why she was able to do all she did. But with the information we currently have, the character of Rey is on a slippery slope.

 

[Beliyal]

Plus, they could've taken the time to explain her expertise with ships (especially re: the Falcon) just a little more, and with two basic points - 1) 'I've been crawling all over ships and vehicles since I was a kid', and 2) 'Who's been looking after/around the Falcon for the last X years, you or me? (silence) Right; gimme that spanner'

What? Your number 1 is in the movie. Literally the first sequence when Rey appears and we are introduced to the character, we see her crawling all over ships and vehicles as a scavenger. That's her job and has been for many years, as we see her familiar with it, her having a routine and equipment necessary to work this job and her being familiarized with the whole ordeal (where to sell, cleaning the equipment because she knows it might fetch a higher price, clearly looking for a specific piece for which she knows is useful and will sell).

It's also strongly implied that she is familiar with the Falcon by her commenting that it's "garbage" (how would she know it's garbage if she never explored or at least listened to people talking about the ship?) and by her knowing which unnecessary parts Unkar Plutt had installed in it. Aside from this being heavily implied in the movie itself and I had no troubles catching it, it is further confirmed in the novelization of the movie where it states that she has been inside the Falcon, mostly at night, to look around. Now, I don't think a movie should need extra information coming from other media, but as I said, this was pretty apparent to me from the context of the stuff presented in the movie itself. When I read the novelization, I wasn't particularly surprised, nor did I see this as new information.

(i.e., how/why she's so good with the Force so quickly, not to mention her 'skill' with a sword)

She's not that good with the Force. She mildly resisted during literal torture (which makes sense as her Force power is innate and clearly would activate in times of great stress and pain), managed a mind-trick after three tries on an already mind-compromised individual (a Stormtrooper was the easiest possible target; it has been previously established in the movie that they are trained through brainwashing, indoctrination and conditioning. Not exactly the most strong-willed subject. And it still took her three tries). She managed to summon a lightsaber that was previously established as "calling out for her." These are traits of a protagonist and definitely not traits of someone who's incredibly good with the Force. It's not different from when Luke had the Force for half an hour and then used it to destroy a Death Star without targeting while flying a ship he has never flown before. He did it because he's the protagonist with innate Force power and flying skills; both come from his heritage. Both Luke and Rey are good with the Force for the same reasons. It's almost as if Rey is supposed to mirror Luke directly.

Her skill with the sword is terrible. She had a mild skill with a martial weapon because she was trained with the staff, but that's about it. She held the saber wrong, flailed aimlessly, did literally nothing useful in the first part of the duel and was constantly pushed back. She prevailed only because Kylo reminded her of the Force and she let it guide her (khmLukekhm). And even then, she continued to flail, only with more ferocity and determination. Then she downed (not even fainted) a physically and emotionally exhausted opponent who was bleeding out from a wound made by a weapon that was previously established to OHKO anyone hit by it.

These things have been explained in the movie. I don't find it necessary to hammer them down for the viewer by having them be reiterated in episodes VIII and IX through boring exposition dialogues where two people stand in a room and have a meaningless conversation for half an hour. TFA is not perfect, but it did visual storytelling very well for all characters.

 

[Karathos]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

 

[Hoplon]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

Because literally in the scene before Ren pushes at her mind to try to get her to tell him what she saw. she experiences it, then tries it and fails the first two times.

 

[the_dramatica]

Litscrubs like to say mary sue means self insert, a common problem with fanfic. However, the common use of it means an "infallable" (usually only slightly smarter than all the other completely retarded characters), linear character that isn't interesting.

Pretty much 80% of all characters in all writing across all types of media fit into this, and that is why the word is thrown around. If you feared for anybodies life by the end of the new star wars or fast and furious you clearly can't find trends.

 

[jklinders]

Caveat, I'm a little guilty of throwing it around myself.

Basically a Mary Sue is any character written specifically as a self insert character for the author in the story. The term came out as a direct result of an especially shittily written fan fic featuring a character of that name who was a flawless self insert type trope in that story.

There is frequently no basis for the existence of this characters apparently inexhaustible abilities. There are frequently very few flaws either. Any flaws that they do have are frequently of the type that could be called endearing or cute. Also, a Sue character usually is immune from criticism in universe for actions that other characters stoned to death.

Basically any character that defies the internal logic of a story to give themselves teh spotlight can be called a sue, but it should not just be tossed around lightly.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

The litmus test above can be useful in helping understand the concept better.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

The problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it's subjective. Often times it's put on a character someone doesn't like (for example: Xion from the Kingdom Hearts seres, who, admittedly, might actually be an deconstruction of the concept.)

In fanfiction terms, it's the author's pet creation who takes all the glory and ruins canon. I admit I've been guilty of this in the past when I was young and inexperienced. It's also what keeps me from making stories now, as I'm paranoid my characters will be labeled as Sues... though would it be "better" if it was more subjective than obvious?

I mean, look at Bella Swan, she's so much a Mary Sue it's not even funny...

 

[maninahat]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

Because literally in the scene before Ren pushes at her mind to try to get her to tell him what she saw. she experiences it, then tries it and fails the first two times.

And apparently no one finds it weird when we see Luke Skywalker intuiting and learning to do completely new force tricks on the fly (knowing exactly when to make a million to one shot, pulling a lightsaber across a cave, Leia being able to feel her stuck, wounded brother etc). The fact that characters can do magic as long as they plug in to the space mana is well a established yet deliberately vague concept, repeated across the movies. Why are people finding that odd now?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

The thing that confused/annoyed me about the Force persuasion scene was the fact she knew how to do it to begin with. Just because you know how to hit keys on a piano doesn't mean you spontaneously play Mozart.

Because literally in the scene before Ren pushes at her mind to try to get her to tell him what she saw. she experiences it, then tries it and fails the first two times.

And apparently no one finds it weird when we see Luke Skywalker intuiting and learning to do completely new force tricks on the fly (knowing exactly when to make a million to one shot, pulling a lightsaber across a cave, Leia being able to feel her stuck, wounded brother etc). The fact that characters can do magic as long as they plug in to the space mana is well a established yet deliberately vague concept, repeated across the movies. Why are people finding that odd now?

Luke makes a shot all of the other pilots were expected to be able to make and struggled to Force Pull his lightsaber when it was literally an arm's length away (in his second movie). All this after being jumped by a sandperson and shoved to the ground/bullied at Mos Eisley among other gaffes and talked down to by Han.

Rey Force pulls Luke's lightsaber from like 20 feet away while it's being Force pulled by an at least semi-trained Sith apprentice after using the Mind Trick Luke wouldn't use until his third film, resisting Force mind rape, and bo-staffing the fuck out of three sandpeople and piloting the fuck out of the Millennium Falcon and earning Han Solo's admiration from jump.

Luke was not unflappable and cool in A New Hope. Han had way more swagger and charisma plus a cool ship. Leia was braver and the Rebel leader. Obi-Wan was wiser. Luke doesn't even use his lightsaber in combat until the end of Empire Strikes Back and loses that fight.

That's the difference: ANH Luke's TFA analog isn't Rey; it's Finn. Rey is a mix of Han, Leia, and RotJ Luke.

 

[Parasondox]

Now we have "Mary Sue". I tried looking up the meaning towards this term and I haven't really found a straightforward answer.

You are either a liar or downright incompetent.
Because the very first link google gives you is the Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

The third option. A lying, incompetent pill popper, high on meds at the time. Yes, I plead guilty. Point I was making was when looking further, many people have their own personal meaning towards the term. It inks to the same true meaning but often over stretched. I just wanted some light fun with a side of winter, Fawkes.

 

[JimB]

At best it was muddying the waters by association.

I disagree. thaluikain was quite clear in establishing that there are limits to the number of people making sexist complaints, so if anyone can't perceive that he's not calling you personally (general you, not specific you) a sexist, then I put that at the feet of a failure of reading comprehension, not thaluikain being non-specific.

He has no rebuttal for the non-sexist criticisms, but makes sure to point out a lot of it is coming from MRA-types.

How the term "Mary Sue" gets used is what the conversation is about. The way MRAs use it is relevant to the discussion. Defending a character who frankly doesn't need defense isn't really part of it.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

It's never been just female, Mary Sue is a unisex title for any character who is basically perfect. Try thinking before you comment.

I actually can't think of a single character who got widespread accusations of being a mary sue who wasn't female. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are House and Batman, and those have only come up in "Look at these male Mary-Sue characters that don't get called out for it" discussions

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I've only really been seeing it used for Rey in the new Starwars film (And NEVER against any male protagonist for some reason), and a lot of it is a dumb bandwagon jumping. I'm seeing a lot try to implicate her as one for a lot of reasons most people ignore for the sake of being able to hate Rey.

I mean it's not like the Star Wars page doesn't describe her as a "gifted mechanic, pilot and warrior" by the time the movie starts?
Oh wait, it does.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/rey
And it's about as Spoiler free as it gets.
"Before the Awakening" explains some of this stuff in more detail, like how she's such a talented pilot. As if her Rebel Pilot fandom wasn't any sort of a clue, either.

Spoiler: as to her fight,

http://imgur.com/gallery/7EhqwbF
is a fun way of explaining a fair chunk. It's something almost no one brings up when looking at why Kylo lost, and honestly, I've seen more than a few people say "Oh, I forgot about that" after it's brought up.
Kylo basically gave her a tutorial on how to use the Force. It might have awakened something from her past as well.
The strong visions that included Obiwan, and Yoda that freaked her out so badly she fled, and got captured didn't kinda hint at anything? The fact it came from the Light Saber of Luke Skywalker who picked up the force extremely quickly either? Can't wait for the inevitable reveals in future movies as to why she's talented?

 

[elvor0]

A Mary Sue is an unbelievable perfect and successful (in universe) female character. This has been extended to any female character that's not utterly useless by certain types who have an odd idea on how successful women can/should be.

Don't do that. That's not having a discussion or adding to the debate, it's just you passively aggressively setting yourself up to paint anyone you disagree with as sexist.

No, it's not. The underlined text very clearly indicates that not everyone who makes this complaint does so for sexist motivations. Anyone who feels that thaluikain has called him a sexist in this post when thlauikain said no such thing is someone who needs to examine his own conscience, because he seems to have difficulty telling the difference between thaluikain's voice and Jiminy Cricket's.

You did read what he said yes? Just because he didnt use the exact word "sexist" doesn't mean he's not implying it. I'm also not under the impression that he's referring to me, I'm criticizing his stance, because of the nebulous nature of "some types" and it fustrates me when people utilize the sexist/racist/ist stance on subjects that are not so black and white, because unless the person flat out says something that is undeniably "ist", indicating that because they feel a character needs toning down, it implys they they have "odd ideas on how successful women can/should be", isn't fair.

 

[Spider RedNight]

As per everyone else, it's being thrown around because people think it can sum up why they don't like the character they're accusing. Sometimes it checks out, though [See. Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way]

That being said, I can see why Rey would get the "Mary Sue" name thrown but honestly, I didn't even think about it during the movie - I just thought it was badass to see a lead chick wielding a lightsaber and fighting (albeit poorly). And I do agree that Katniss fits better than Rey.

 

[Erttheking]

An interesting thing I realized about Mary sues is that they usually appear more often on continuation of shows, Avatar and Star Wars for example, I think that american writers tend to try to "oversell" female characters to be as good as the male heroes (if not more) but end up losing the "character" in the progress.

Why is it every time you talk about stuff like this you come back to America? And why is it you talk about America like Americans lean towards one type of female character when we tend to have a bit more variety than that? I mean you tend to get a lot of variety in a country where you can fit countries inside of states like Texas.

 

[Pseudonym]

If I ever need a painter, I won't ask you. Throwing paint around is a bad way to paint.

In any case, it's a popular insult nowadays. Not much to say about it, I think.

 

[wizzy555]

Luke makes a shot all of the other pilots were expected to be able to make and struggled to Force Pull his lightsaber when it was literally an arm's length away (in his second movie). All this after being jumped by a sandperson and shoved to the ground/bullied at Mos Eisley among other gaffes and talked down to by Han.

Rey Force pulls Luke's lightsaber from like 20 feet away while it's being Force pulled by an at least semi-trained Sith apprentice after using the Mind Trick Luke wouldn't use until his third film, resisting Force mind rape, and bo-staffing the fuck out of three sandpeople and piloting the fuck out of the Millennium Falcon and earning Han Solo's admiration from jump.

Luke was not unflappable and cool in A New Hope. Han had way more swagger and charisma plus a cool ship. Leia was braver and the Rebel leader. Obi-Wan was wiser. Luke doesn't even use his lightsaber in combat until the end of Empire Strikes Back and loses that fight.

That's the difference: ANH Luke's TFA analog isn't Rey; it's Finn. Rey is a mix of Han, Leia, and RotJ Luke.

I think there's three possible saves that can transpire:

1) Rey has had training she just can't remember/we haven't heard about
2) She is a super-powered force chosen one
3) Luke was never a particularly good jedi to begin with and that was just fan head-cannon.

or

we just accept this as it would be boring to see another jedi training arch.

 

[Asita]

It's never been just female, Mary Sue is a unisex title for any character who is basically perfect. Try thinking before you comment.

I actually can't think of a single character who got widespread accusations of being a mary sue who wasn't female. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are House and Batman, and those have only come up in "Look at these male Mary-Sue characters that don't get called out for it" discussions

Oh come on, you've never seen "The Room"? Or "Grown Ups"? Or "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry?"


...okay I can see why you might have not wanted to watch those things <.<, but it greatly reduces your ability to think of these sorts of things if you don't expose yourself to horrible movies.

Oh wait, thought of another one; "Silent Night: Deadly Night 2" <.<

...And neither of you mention Wesley Crusher? He is one of the less ambiguous canonical examples in fiction, due in no small part from Eugene Wesley Roddenberry himself openly admitting that Wesley was an idealized version of his younger self.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

...And neither of you mention Wesley Crusher? He is one of the less ambiguous canonical examples in fiction, due in no small part from Eugene Wesley Roddenberry himself openly admitting that Wesley was an idealized version of his younger self.

I'll grant you he is a solid example, but TNG ended in 1994, some 21-22 years ago depending on how you wanna count. Some people posting here weren't even born, or were too young to realize what was going on.
A robot chicken joke later, and he's still not all that fresh in our minds.