Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[BloatedGuppy]

But yeah, really good movie, and I plan to see it again, so it's not like I'm over here like "NYAAAAR ME HATE MOVIE" or anything. I just think the broad handling is a bit weak and banks rather heavily on the trilogy arc rather than the individual movie arc. Not how I would do it, but I don't think it RUINED anything.

I liked it. Probably my FAVORITE movie of the year, but not the BEST movie I saw (I'd likely give that to Ex Machina, although I haven't seen Revenant or Carol or Spotlight or Sicario yet). I thought it was super entertaining, and as an OT lover/prequel hater it seemed designed to pander to my preferences. It was definitively formulaic, but Star Wars was ALWAYS formulaic. That's what I find so baffling. Empire was skewered for being "too formulaic". "All the freshness is gone" bemoaned the critics. Return of the Jedi was also blasted. Tatooine AGAIN? Death Star AGAIN? What is this? Retread!

It's monomyth, archetypal escapist fantasy. I guess I never expected anything more from it than a well honed formula, delivered with enthusiasm and love. As Harrison Ford said in one of his interviews, it's a simple story, but it's also a very powerful story. Which explains why it's such a pop cultural touchstone, and so many of its imitators fell on their ass.

Seriously though. Blue Ghost Han for president.

I think it's clear you should request a User Name Change to Blue Ghost Han.

 

[happyninja42]

Man, was that the same guy?

It is definitively him, yeah. Any lingering doubt about it was removed when the script leaked.

That's basically what's happening with TFA. You have people who have had decades of getting a general feel of the Star Wars universe, that Jedi can intuit stuff, but getting GOOD at it takes time and practice.

snip

That's actually a very good point. Pointing it out reminds me of the first real lesson we as the audience learn about the Force from Obi-Wan. When he's talking to Luke while he's fighting the probe, and Luke asks. "You mean it controls your actions?"

To which Obi-Wan says "Partly, but it also obeys your commands." The bolded part is important, since it establishes from the very start "The Force let's people who can channel it, do stuff they normally wouldn't be able to do."

 

[Areloch]

But yeah, really good movie, and I plan to see it again, so it's not like I'm over here like "NYAAAAR ME HATE MOVIE" or anything. I just think the broad handling is a bit weak and banks rather heavily on the trilogy arc rather than the individual movie arc. Not how I would do it, but I don't think it RUINED anything.

I liked it. Probably my FAVORITE movie of the year, but not the BEST movie I saw (I'd likely give that to Ex Machina, although I haven't seen Revenant or Carol or Spotlight or Sicario yet). I thought it was super entertaining, and as an OT lover/prequel hater it seemed designed to pander to my preferences. It was definitively formulaic, but Star Wars was ALWAYS formulaic. That's what I find so baffling. Empire was skewered for being "too formulaic". "All the freshness is gone" bemoaned the critics. Return of the Jedi was also blasted. Tatooine AGAIN? Death Star AGAIN? What is this? Retread!

It's monomyth, archetypal escapist fantasy. I guess I never expected anything more from it than a well honed formula, delivered with enthusiasm and love. As Harrison Ford said in one of his interviews, it's a simple story, but it's also a very powerful story. Which explains why it's such a pop cultural touchstone, and so many of its imitators fell on their ass.

Well, how many people that are annoyed with how TFA has progressed were there watching the original trilogy when it came out? Could just be a case of history repeating itself there.
(And for the record, I DO find it silly that they keep building superweapon stations. Guys, it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second. Why would the THIRD time work? At least they covered the exhaust ports this time)

Seriously though. Blue Ghost Han for president.

I think it's clear you should request a User Name Change to Blue Ghost Han.

Haha. I am no where NEAR worthy of such a glorious title.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And for the record, I DO find it silly that they keep building superweapon stations. Guys, it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second. Why would the THIRD time work? At least they covered the exhaust ports this time.

Those superweapons are EXTRAORDINARILY effective. Six planets destroyed! Six! People talk about the GDP cost of the weapons, what about the GDP cost of the PLANETS? They one shot the bulk of the Republic Fleet and gutted their entire center of government.

The crazy thing is why they're not building MORE Death Stars.

Narratively, yes, it's a little lazy, but they made them too good to not build.

 

[kitsunefather]

The main issue is, like irony, it is an easy to use term that most people don't acutely understand but can apply as a form of shorthand to describe a general impression; in this case displeasure.

A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is not "overpowered", except by narrative convenience. They are often creations of wish-fulfillment, who accomplish their goals in the story without any effort or hardship on their own part. Many times, but not all, they are author-insert characters, which is where the term gained the most traction via fan-fiction.

Stories where the support and background characters do all, or close to all, of the work to drive the narrative. Another is one where the character overcomes adversity simply by virtue of their existence, rather than any real effort.

In the case of Rey in the Force Awakens, I've heard Mary Sue bandied about, and I disagree.

Spoiler

She suffered setbacks, struggled with the enemy, was supported by a team effort and ultimately overcame a weakened foe in a rush of ability that was very subtly presaged throughout the story. As to her sudden rush of ability with the lightsaber at the end, it is made clear repeatedly in the build-up to that moment that she connects with and knows how to use machines without any experience (able to fix the MF better than Han, for instance, and knowing what modifications had been done to it).

Essentially, if the idea of characters being called Mary Sue bothers you, I'd suggest getting used to it. As I say earlier, the term has become like "irony", in that it is not being used in the spirit in which it exists. It essentially now, most often, means that someone is unhappy with the way a character is constructed (or as an easy undefinable cheap shot at a work).

 

[Areloch]

And for the record, I DO find it silly that they keep building superweapon stations. Guys, it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second. Why would the THIRD time work? At least they covered the exhaust ports this time.

Those superweapons are EXTRAORDINARILY effective. Six planets destroyed! Six! People talk about the GDP cost of the weapons, what about the GDP cost of the PLANETS? They one shot the bulk of the Republic Fleet and gutted their entire center of government.

The crazy thing is why they're not building MORE Death Stars.

Narratively, yes, it's a little lazy, but they made them too good to not build.

It's more of a personel issue.

Why would anyone work on a giant superweapon space station/planet if the rebels keep consistently exploding them? And the fact that you lose hundreds of millions or billions of staff each time one explodes, means that you're rapidly going to eat through anyone sympathetic enough to actually work on one.

I mean, if you kidnap and brainwash them, then there's that, but eventually you'll run out of people in general. Maybe that's the first order's real goal? Be literally the only people left alive in the galaxy? Cause if so, they're on course for it, haha.

 

[happyninja42]

And for the record, I DO find it silly that they keep building superweapon stations. Guys, it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second. Why would the THIRD time work? At least they covered the exhaust ports this time.

Those superweapons are EXTRAORDINARILY effective. Six planets destroyed! Six! People talk about the GDP cost of the weapons, what about the GDP cost of the PLANETS? They one shot the bulk of the Republic Fleet and gutted their entire center of government.

The crazy thing is why they're not building MORE Death Stars.

Narratively, yes, it's a little lazy, but they made them too good to not build.

Heheh, man, that starkiller base. I really had to turn off my nitpick mode when that came up in the story. Too many "Wait a minute, if they are doing that with a star, then how is....*insert laundry list of actual scientific things that would happen that didn't*" But I was able to hold it back and just say "Meh, it looks cool, even if it's entirely unrealistic. Who cares." xD But it was a close fight when I first saw it!

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I tend to think that the Mary Sue, as a concept, has been latched on by individuals with toxic points of view.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue in the sense that her abilities don't make sense or are severely outstretched, and neither is, say, Furiosa. Both are capable characters who just so happen to be women. Unfortunately, some "critics" tend to equate any capably-written woman to aggressive third-wave feminism - as if any female character who's demonstrably capable had "I DON'T NEED NO MAN!" written as their subtext.

It's true that Jessica Jones doesn't need a man outright, for instance. She's got super strength, for one, and sharp deductive capabilities that got her something like a steady job. She is, however, a human being with emotional needs who may end up needing someone else for emotional support. Whether that "someone else" is male or female is irrelevant - what matters is that she's a nuanced character.

Redpillers or certain so-called "feminists" are looking at characterization in a skewed manner. We're finally reaching an era in which narrative or cinematographic protagonists can be as nuanced as real persons are without risking moral outrage, and some people are still fixated on finding bugaboos in everything the silver screen puts out.

All of that, however, doesn't exclude the fact that some films are clumsy about certain issues, and that sensitivity is something that needs to be worked on. Nobody is born with flawless empathy.

 

[Zero=Interrupt]

Because it's only 2016 and we're still not used to competent female characters.

Anime and Manga have had them for years, thanks ever so much. Nausicaa puts Rey to shame, and she did it all with a pet squirrel. For that matter, go watch a Katherine Hepburn movie some time.

My problem with TFA was the weak writing that was endemic throughout the whole thing (first and foremost that it rehashed the Ep. 4 script which was unnecessary) Part of that weak writing was giving Rey some Force-related abilities that even Darth Vader needed extensive training to use. Leia from Ep 4 was superior writing because they didn't beat us over the head by giving her magic powers, they made her a smartass go-getter, which was great all by itself. Add to that the hype machine and, well, Rey kinda gets the short end of the stick for all sides. If there hadn't been so much fail at the get-go, people wouldn't have left feeling unsatisfied. The problem is that nowadays, a lot of the this empowerment stuff is in your face because people have agendas (yes they do, be honest with yourselves), and it doesn't need to be.

There were well written, competent female characters back when movies were black & white and coffee was a nickel. The difference is back then they didn't need to masculinize female characters and feminize the males, they just wrote the characters well. Rey didn't need to be the man and lead poor Finn around by the nose to be competent, she just had to be competent.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

It's more of a personel issue.

Why would anyone work on a giant superweapon space station/planet if the rebels keep consistently exploding them? And the fact that you lose hundreds of millions or billions of staff each time one explodes, means that you're rapidly going to eat through anyone sympathetic enough to actually work on one.

I mean, if you kidnap and brainwash them, then there's that, but eventually you'll run out of people in general. Maybe that's the first order's real goal? Be literally the only people left alive in the galaxy? Cause if so, they're on course for it, haha.

Just a nit pick, supposedly things like the Death Star only have around 10,000 or so staff to a maximum of maybe a hundred thousand... In a galaxy that contains Trillions of humans, that's not a notable loss of life on the larger scale.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Just a nit pick, supposedly things like the Death Star only have around 10,000 or so staff to a maximum of maybe a hundred thousand... In a galaxy that contains Trillions of humans, that's not a notable loss of life on the larger scale.

The Death Star had ~2 million on board, some 1.2 million of which were Storm Troopers. Equivalent to the staffing of about 50 Star Destroyers.

Yes, I looked it up. What. What of it. You got something to say, about me being a huge nerd?

Why would anyone work on a giant superweapon space station/planet if the rebels keep consistently exploding them?

Because they're ideological fanatics who believe wholly in the righteousness of their cause? Why do people suicide bomb? Why did the Third Reich have so much support?

Be literally the only people left alive in the galaxy? Cause if so, they're on course for it, haha.

Eh. It's a big galaxy. I have the Edge of the Empire tabletop RPG at home, and the galaxy map has hundreds and hundreds of worlds. They could gut the Core Worlds/cripple the Republic and still have plenty left to reign over.

Too many "Wait a minute, if they are doing that with a star, then how is....*insert laundry list of actual scientific things that would happen that didn't*" But I was able to hold it back and just say "Meh, it looks cool, even if it's entirely unrealistic. Who cares." xD But it was a close fight when I first saw it!

This is why no one wants to go see a space fantasy movie with Neil Degrasse Tyson. Our rational brains need to take a short vacation to survive past the opening minutes of the original film. The one that always gets me is how the ships are always lined up in naval battle formation, all perfectly visible to the naked human eye. It's ludicrous. But fun.

 

[Areloch]

It's more of a personel issue.

Why would anyone work on a giant superweapon space station/planet if the rebels keep consistently exploding them? And the fact that you lose hundreds of millions or billions of staff each time one explodes, means that you're rapidly going to eat through anyone sympathetic enough to actually work on one.

I mean, if you kidnap and brainwash them, then there's that, but eventually you'll run out of people in general. Maybe that's the first order's real goal? Be literally the only people left alive in the galaxy? Cause if so, they're on course for it, haha.

Just a nit pick, supposedly things like the Death Star only have around 10,000 or so staff to a maximum of maybe a hundred thousand... In a galaxy that contains Trillions of humans, that's not a notable loss of life on the larger scale.

Huh, that seems remarkably low. I guess they automate the ever-loving crap out of everything then, because a modern Aircraft carrier has in the ballpark of 5k crew and those are SLIGHTLY smaller than the Death Star.

 

[wizzy555]

Remember the death stars weren't actually designed to be used. They were designed as a symbol to fear. Palpatine had almost complete control of the republic and wanted to get rid of the senate, but he feared rebellion without a diplomatic base, so the death star was there to prevent wide scale rebellion.

Destroying planets is economically terrible, that goes double if you have to hollow out a planet AND destroy a star to destroy other planets.

 

[Areloch]

Just a nit pick, supposedly things like the Death Star only have around 10,000 or so staff to a maximum of maybe a hundred thousand... In a galaxy that contains Trillions of humans, that's not a notable loss of life on the larger scale.

The Death Star had ~2 million on board, some 1.2 million of which were Storm Troopers. Equivalent to the staffing of about 50 Star Destroyers.

Yes, I looked it up. What. What of it. You got something to say, about me being a huge nerd?

Why would anyone work on a giant superweapon space station/planet if the rebels keep consistently exploding them?

Because they're ideological fanatics who believe wholly in the righteousness of their cause? Why do people suicide bomb? Why did the Third Reich have so much support?

Or the pay is really good. Also the benefits. "Join up and get this baller white armor and free blaster! Also food!".

Be literally the only people left alive in the galaxy? Cause if so, they're on course for it, haha.

Eh. It's a big galaxy. I have the Edge of the Empire tabletop RPG at home, and the galaxy map has hundreds and hundreds of worlds. They could gut the Core Worlds/cripple the Republic and still have plenty left to reign over.

Fair enough. I've been out of the Star Wars loop long enough I can't remember how many planets were considered habitable and/or inhabited. So they've got a few dozen more iterations of death stars to build before they'll purge the galaxy then if they only take out 1-6 planets a go

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Just a nit pick, supposedly things like the Death Star only have around 10,000 or so staff to a maximum of maybe a hundred thousand... In a galaxy that contains Trillions of humans, that's not a notable loss of life on the larger scale.

The Death Star had ~2 million on board, some 1.2 million of which were Storm Troopers. Equivalent to the staffing of about 50 Star Destroyers.

Yes, I looked it up. What. What of it. You got something to say, about me being a huge nerd?

Really, because I just looked both up on Wookieepeia and that's not exactly accurate by canon standards, The DS-1 Death Star [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star] had a crew of 342,953 Imperial Navy and Army, along with 25,984 Stormtroopers. The Death Star II [starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II] had a crew of 637,835 Imperial Navy and Army, but seeing that it was under construction at the time, probably about half or more of that was the construction crew. Especially seeing as they were in a hurry to finish the thing.

It's more of a personel issue.

Why would anyone work on a giant superweapon space station/planet if the rebels keep consistently exploding them? And the fact that you lose hundreds of millions or billions of staff each time one explodes, means that you're rapidly going to eat through anyone sympathetic enough to actually work on one.

I mean, if you kidnap and brainwash them, then there's that, but eventually you'll run out of people in general. Maybe that's the first order's real goal? Be literally the only people left alive in the galaxy? Cause if so, they're on course for it, haha.

Just a nit pick, supposedly things like the Death Star only have around 10,000 or so staff to a maximum of maybe a hundred thousand... In a galaxy that contains Trillions of humans, that's not a notable loss of life on the larger scale.

Huh, that seems remarkably low. I guess they automate the ever-loving crap out of everything then, because a modern Aircraft carrier has in the ballpark of 5k crew and those are SLIGHTLY smaller than the Death Star.

As above I seem to have miscalculated. Still they're big, but you'd want to mitigate the man-power usage to maintain a mobile battle station like that, or run the risk of running short on available military personnel.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Really, because I just looked both up on Wookieepeia and that's not exactly accurate by canon standards, The DS-1 Death Star [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star] had a crew of 342,953 Imperial Navy and Army, along with 25,984 Stormtroopers. The Death Star II [starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II] had a crew of 637,835 Imperial Navy and Army, but seeing that it was under construction at the time, probably about half or more of that was the construction crew. Especially seeing as they were in a hurry to finish the thing.

Ah, I had checked the 2nd Death Star. Still, this is what Wookiepedia had (apparently, I got the Wookiepedia info from a second hand source) given: Crew (485,560), Gunners (152,275), Troops (1,295,950), Infantry (127,570), Technical personnel (75,860), Pilots (334,432). Is that no longer accurate?

Not that I uh (cough) know what Wookiepedia is (cough, study ceiling). I'm far too cool for that.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Really, because I just looked both up on Wookieepeia and that's not exactly accurate by canon standards, The DS-1 Death Star [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star] had a crew of 342,953 Imperial Navy and Army, along with 25,984 Stormtroopers. The Death Star II [starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II] had a crew of 637,835 Imperial Navy and Army, but seeing that it was under construction at the time, probably about half or more of that was the construction crew. Especially seeing as they were in a hurry to finish the thing.

Ah, I had checked the 2nd Death Star. Still, this is what Wookiepedia had (apparently, I got the Wookiepedia info from a second hand source) given: Crew (485,560), Gunners (152,275), Troops (1,295,950), Infantry (127,570), Technical personnel (75,860), Pilots (334,432). Is that no longer accurate?

Not that I uh (cough) know what Wookiepedia is (cough, study ceiling). I'm far too cool for that.

A lot of pages have a canon and EU version. The EU version lists personnel in the millions while the canon version has the numbers Kyuubi posted. The canon numbers come from a book printed for the release of TFA.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Basically since Yahtzee made an extra punctuation episode referencing the term in regards to Geralt from The Witcher everyone has slowly started to use it to describe characters they don't like. All the while ignoring what he actually had to say in that episode or what the original definition of the term was.

 

[Ikasury]

typically, ANY main character in ANYTHING falls under the trope Mary/Gary sue simply because via the demands of plot they:

are the center of attention
have no flaws/flaws are barely brought up
limited character development/seem perfect
beat EVERYONE at EVERYTHING
can brush off being punched by galaxies or equivalent thing
are some archtypical 'chosen one'
everyone, even the badguys, end up liking/falling for them on some level
everyone conveniently knows them
the universe generally revolves around them
they save the day/solve the problem/have tea and crumpets with the entire cast
have a dark/mysterous/tragic/whatever past
convenience explains away atypical powers

by a literary stand point there is next to no difference between a Mary/Gary Sue and your average main character, attempts to make main characters NOT M/Gs by GIVING them over flaws that would make them ugly/scared/insane/etc. and therefore someone NO ONE would want to willing be around... yet they are, are Peggy Sues (Ie: Wolvarine)

the issues is main characters are generally boring, camera's on wheels that allow the audience to experience whatever world, because of this flaw they HAVE to do all or most of the above namely for plot to progress so we can 'see more'... 'good' main characters are ones where these things aren't so obvious with a mix of other innocuous things that make them unique and they act flawed and in 'human' ways... sadly most movies, especially bit 'dramas' like Star Wars aren't going to have this as its a movie and generally the MC must be 'perfect' just to get through the damn plot in less than 2hrs...

characters who typically receive the title of Mary/Gary sue are OCs (original characters) in fan works that for no explicable reason TAKE OVER EVERYTHING and force known characters to act in ways against their norm to accomodate this...

for best examples of Mary/Gary Sues:
-ANY SHOUNEN PROTAGONIST - most notable: Goku, Ichigo, Eren, Naruto, etc. etc.
-ANY SHOUJOU PROTAGONIST - though generally to a less degree as their major flaws come in lack of confidence being 'girls' and 'friendship' fixes everything - Sakura, Usagi, Madoka, etc. etc.
-Comic Books -period- most notable: Superman/Wonderwoman
-Literature - any hero that follows the heroes journey - so everyone...
-Movies -as derived from books 'mostly' follow this- most notable: Neo

simple answer: they're in some way perfect and that's annoying = Mary/Gary Sue = Most Main Characters in general

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Really, because I just looked both up on Wookieepeia and that's not exactly accurate by canon standards, The DS-1 Death Star [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star] had a crew of 342,953 Imperial Navy and Army, along with 25,984 Stormtroopers. The Death Star II [starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_II] had a crew of 637,835 Imperial Navy and Army, but seeing that it was under construction at the time, probably about half or more of that was the construction crew. Especially seeing as they were in a hurry to finish the thing.

Ah, I had checked the 2nd Death Star. Still, this is what Wookiepedia had (apparently, I got the Wookiepedia info from a second hand source) given: Crew (485,560), Gunners (152,275), Troops (1,295,950), Infantry (127,570), Technical personnel (75,860), Pilots (334,432). Is that no longer accurate?

Not that I uh (cough) know what Wookiepedia is (cough, study ceiling). I'm far too cool for that.

Sure you are, and so am I...

But the numbers you're talking are from a EU/Legends source and as @crimson5pheonix the numbers I posted are from a canon source book released in the lead up to TFA. So the larger number is a officially invalid anymore.