Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[BloatedGuppy]

I might very well be wrong and it might be a delusion on my part, but whilst the force can be inconsistent the relation of emotion to power always made logical sense to me and seemed to be supported by most SW material I consumed. If you feel this is nonsense, then fair enough, this might be me being a star wars nerd nerding out and making sense out of nonsense.

Well, in fairness of full disclosure, I have not consumed much EU material, and since the vast majority of it is now rendered non-canonical, I no longer feel much impetus to do so. I have said that I have a lot of sympathy for EU lovers who are confronted by what is, to them, essentially a re-write of a chronology they'd invested time and energy in. That's a disappointment I'm quite familiar with (cough, Game of Thrones, cough). But that milk is spilled, and we still have six films to give us canon. And those films are all over the place with their presentation of the force, how it's used, how much training things require, what that training even IS, etc, etc, etc. There's room for a huge number of interpretations. Which speaks to the muddy ambiguity of "the force" to begin with. None of which is to knock Star Wars, I love Star Wars. But I don't love it because it's a masterwork of intricate plotting and sophisticated thematic beats. I love it because it's simple, primal, archetypal storytelling.

I'm relieved to hear that! I guess maybe my own perceptions might have been colored by what I read on the net. I came into the film with very little knowledge (I even still thought Finn was the main character) and then checked out what was the general opinion of the net after that, only to find a lot of "drama" around Rey for whatever reason. And even on the escapist in TFA related threads, the most debate/drama seems to be around Rey and nothing else. Which annoys me because I feel there's plenty of things in TFA to ***** about.

There's stuff to ***** about, certainly, as there is with almost everything. No one profits by the shutting down of criticism. Yeah there's a lot of drama around Rey, but she and Kylo are the principals, so there was always going to be drama around them. And the internet being what it is, some of that drama has coalesced around very predictable and unsavory lines. That I acknowledge that is not an implicit accusation, it's more of a reflex rebuttal to arguments like "No one is criticizing her because she's a girl".

And by the by, Rey wasn't even my favorite character. I liked her and Finn about equally. Kylo Ren was by a country mile my favorite character. I think he's quite possibly the best...or at least most complex...character the Star Wars film franchise has enjoyed to date.

 

[C14N]

You hear it a lot lately because people who don't know what it means use it for the character of Rey from Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

In reality, a Mary Sue is a character who is perfect at the start of the story, perfect in the middle and perfect at the end. They make no mistakes. Nobody gets the upper hand on them. Everybody not just likes them, but respects and greatly admires them. If they say something, it's both morally and factually right all the time. They are the best at everything they do. They don't just "win", they were never even close to losing.

What's also important though, is that they are a proxy for the author. The perfect character must be an obvious idealised version of the author themselves rather than their own character. If the author loves video games, the Mary Sue they right will love video games. If the author is a libertarian, the Mary Sue will be a libertarian (*cough* John Galt).

A Mary Sue is such an abominably bad character that you will almost never see one in a mainstream film or book. It would be hard to even have one in any film as film is a collaborative medium and the main character reflects the work of more than just one person. If you want to look at Rey from TFA, who is the ideal person she represents? Is it actress Daisy Ridley? Is it director JJ Abrams? Is it his fellow writers Michael Arndt and Lawrence Kasdan? It's more likely you would see it in an amateur screenplay or a teenager's English-class short-story or most likely in fanfiction where somebody might literally put themselves in the story to be the best friend/lover of a character they like.

 

[happyninja42]

You hear it a lot lately because people who don't know what it means use it for the character of Rey from Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

In reality, a Mary Sue is a character who is perfect at the start of the story, perfect in the middle and perfect at the end. They make no mistakes. Nobody gets the upper hand on them. Everybody not just likes them, but respects and greatly admires them. If they say something, it's both morally and factually right all the time. They are the best at everything they do. They don't just "win", they were never even close to losing.

Another aspect you forgot is :

If they do something wrong, it's actually not wrong, but only appeared wrong at the time, due to missing information, or circumstances that haven't manifested yet in the plot. But by the end of it all, the Sue's actions end up being the correct one, because circumstances shift to make it the correct action.

As to the statement that a Sue is the standin for the writer, this is true, but the term has evolved a bit more to include characters who simply reflect the traits you mentioned. They don't absolutely have to be a literal standin for the author to be a Mary Sue.

 

[springheeljack]

It is just a stupid term sucked in by the internet and regurgitated over and over till it has lost its meaning like most popular terms. It is kind of insulting that it is always used on female characters most of the time unfairly. So many people use that term on Rey that you would thing that all the people who use it come from some weird hive mind. It is just the same tired argument over and over again

Hive-minder checking in. Honestly, she left me feeling pretty cold. She genuinely was perfect to the point of being a bit annoying/boring. Those were my feelings. You get to share internal conflict as well as the films better comedy moments with Finn(the other new hero character which I would still say was underdeveloped, though not to the point of stopping me from enjoying the film), which help give his character... Character.

Maybe you can tell me what I missed. If you were to sell me on the character, how would you explain her? What is her personality like? What are her affectations?




Really? I didn't feel that way about her at all I found her incredibly likable as a character and I thought that there was a lot of depth to her
Okay here is how I would explain her character
She has severe abandonment issues. She has had a hard life on Jakku where she has had to scrounge up a meager existence by hunting for scrap for many years. She has also done this on her own as it looks like she doesn't live with anybody else so consequently it has hardened her outlook on life. Her outlook changes through the course of the movie as she finally leaves Jakku in the wide world. Her manner brightens around Finn and especially around Han Solo because I think she seems him as a sort of father figure. Still even though she is enjoying herself on her journey she still feels obligated to return to Jakku in the vain hope that her family will eventually return for her. Through the course of the movie she has to come to terms with the fact that her destiny will be settled elsewhere. She is a dynamic character whose desires and motivations change throughout the movie. She is not some perfect character that has no growth at all. She is a protagonist who is gifted with many of the same traits that protagonists normally have such as Harry Potter or Odysseus. Oh and of course she is attractive this is a movie after all Hollywood actors are usually considered to be beautiful people. You can say that every main character in Star Wars Awakens are attractive people.

 

[Frankster]

Well, in fairness of full disclosure, I have not consumed much EU material, and since the vast majority of it is now rendered non-canonical, I no longer feel much impetus to do so. I have said that I have a lot of sympathy for EU lovers who are confronted by what is, to them, essentially a re-write of a chronology they'd invested time and energy in. That's a disappointment I'm quite familiar with (cough, Game of Thrones, cough). But that milk is spilled, and we still have six films to give us canon.

Aw man you're reopening a deep wound there xP *hides away an entire shelf full of star wars EU books and comics*
Yeah it's probably for the best in the end you didn't invest too much time in it, and I think I speak for most EU fans when I say it all got horribly bloated and jumped the shark 10 times over but there are parts of it I'm gonna miss dearly and hope disney doesn't forget about totally:

The only bright side is due to being rendered non-cannon, old EU stuff is now super cheap, actually bought a bunch of EU comic omnibus collections (500+pages) on ipad for the price of a single issue of the newer star wars comics. They help dry my tears.

Otherwise Ren was actually also my favorite character once I accepted he isn't Vader 2.0 (and it's probably for the best), between him and phasma it was easy for me to root for the bad guys in the film. Phasma was relegated to second place because she just wasn't in enough scenes, hopefully that will change in next. What won me over for Ren was the deadpan way he delivered some of his lines, I dont know if it was intended to be funny but it made me lol at least. Compared to the good guys it really did seem like Ren was the more interesting character, and I say that as someone who enjoyed Finn's antics (though not his backstory).

She has had a hard life on Jakku where she has had to scrounge up a meager existence by hunting for scrap for many years. She has also done this on her own as it looks like she doesn't live with anybody else so consequently it has hardened her outlook on life.

I just want to chip in here because this part is exactly where I first started having cognitive dissonance issues with Rey. She seems to start being portrayed the way you describe then she suddenly gets super protective of a random droid she never met?

Unless I missed something (I only saw film once so it's possible), this came off as super contrived to me.
Why was she pestering that other scavenger for the droid he acquired? Was she bullying him to take the droid for herself since its a dog eat dog world on Jakku? Ok I can buy that...Wait why isn't her first reflex to want to sell it ASAP (with $ in her eyes of course)? I really do feel like some scenes were cut here or something, it just didn't flow naturally from "scavenger looking out for herself" to "selfless friend of random droids worth and resistance sympathizer".

Which is why I'm a bit o0 when you say her manner brightens around Finn and Han, for me it seemed to have happened the moment she met that droid and I just didn't understand why, the droid didn't even spoil anything about the resistance yet and she was already on board with the plot.
Compare it to how it happened with Luke (which this is all meant to parallel I feel), and the pace comes of as super weird, Luke didn't want to sign up for the rebellion from the get go, heck one of the first scenes we get is him getting frustrated at not being allowed to join the (imperial) academy and another establishing his longing for a life of adventure, then he repairs the droids as part of his chores, stumbles onto a message, gets enamored with princess Leia and gets curious about her message (at this point the rebellion is still not mentioned, to Luke this is just a random cute chick asking for help), decides to bring droid to Ben Kenobi, etc.. It takes his family being butchered and losing his home to force Luke into a crisis.

Just my 2 cents', if someone saw something I missed I'm certainly willing to hear it.

 

[JimB]

Why was she pestering that other scavenger for the droid he acquired?

Because the droid objected to being acquired. He was being stolen, and thieves must not be allowed to keep their prizes; particularly after her boss stole half her wages from her earlier that morning. She couldn't get back at her boss, but she could get revenge on that Jawa as a proxy.

 

[Leoofmoon]

I think Ray is just overpowered. I don't think shes a Mary sue yet the face she was able to take down a trained Jedi/Sith and she could uses her force powers without any training is a bit OP but in the terms of having a nice ending its was ok because I know Empire strikes back part 2 is coming and Ray is gonna get beaten HARD.

 

[Thyunda]

I actually don't see Mary-Sue being used a lot as a term apart from in the cases of Rey and Geralt. Rey gets it because she's a strong Force-sensitive who grew up on Jedi legends, who evidently spent her entire life on Jakku, surrounded by dangerous and unscrupulous criminals. Somehow, people are shocked and surprised that this upbringing leads to somebody having faith in the Force and being good at fighting. We also already know Force-users are unnaturally good at piloting things. Small Anakin, for example. Luke, for a less divisive example. Han Solo is probably sensitive himself - I also think, though I have no proof of this, that the Millennium Falcon is customised for less safety features and more direct control from the user, which is my only explanation as to how a ship that ungainly can perform the maneuvers it does. This would obviously be the reason a Force-user can make it dance with no piloting experience. Unrealistic, maybe, but certainly part of the established canon. And come on, how many times has it been said that the Force is about letting go and having faith in it? That's basically the Jedi method - their training is dedicated to learning to have that control over themselves and their emotions. Anakin, Luke and Rey made up for their lack of training with raw power - Kylo Ren utterly failed against that raw power because he was struggling to tap into his own. He was raised a Jedi, and is still in the process of being corrupted. Unfortunately, he's far too middle-class to understand real suffering so he has very little rage to draw on and that makes him weak. Still strong enough to take a hit from a weapon that literally takes stormtroopers off their feet and put up a fight, though. Trained Jedi or no, a lightsaber is dangerous. A blind swing has the potential to cut right through somebody's body with no resistance whatsoever.


Geralt suffers a bit more of a nuanced criticism, because in any other fiction he would be a Mary-Sue. Being a master with a sword, with the ladies and with magic is...well it's pretty Mary-Sue. Unless you're in the Witcher-verse. Witchers are great with swords - supernaturally good. Didn't stop Kaer Morhen being reduced to a ruin by angry peasants, of course, and the only reason Vesemir, Eskel, Lambert and Geralt survived was because they weren't around at the time. On top of that, Geralt's joint-second for 'best swordsman' of those survivors. Vesemir taught them, and is the superior swordsman. Eskel and Geralt are roughly equals, and Lambert's younger and not as useful. Possibly due to the whole, "Witcher saved my abusive father and took me as payment," backstory.
As for the magic - to the 'normal' people in this world, yeah, Geralt's a master-of-all-trades wizard. Course, to the actual wizards, Geralt has literally no protection whatsoever. Yennefer drops him from the sky into a lake to end an argument. There is literally nothing stopping a sorcerer from dropping him onto a rock.
And then there's the women. Which, if you discount the first game as totes non-canon, which I do, are relatively limited to Shani and a couple of sorceresses - and sorceresses enjoy witchers for a couple of reasons. Shani's motives are entirely unknown, and that scene (in the books - I haven't reached that scene in Hearts of Stone yet) is largely comedic. But the sorceresses are immortal and infertile, and largely bored shitless with conventional sex. Witchers have a pleasant tingle in their touch for magic-sensitives, from all the genetic modification which gives them their powers in the first place. Yennefer's emotional attraction to the emotionally-inhibited (not necessarily emotionless) Geralt is a complex beast that is both in parts pragmatic manipulation and spontaneous affection. Triss, on the other hand, sees the heroic Geralt who believes in doing what's right, and arguably has a much more naive perception of the mutant killing-machine.
Keira Metz was just being opportunistic and enjoying the ride while she was there.

So, basically, first-game Geralt: Total Mary-Sue. Narratively, I hated that game. Second-game Geralt - no idea. Couldn't get past Flotsam because I lost interest in the difficult mechanics. Third-game-and-therefore-novel Geralt - Totally not a Mary-Sue.

As you can probably tell, I'd been meaning to say this for a while but never got an opportunity, so I'm late to the party but I'm doing it all the same.

 

[Frankster]

Because the droid objected to being acquired. He was being stolen, and thieves must not be allowed to keep their prizes; particularly after her boss stole half her wages from her earlier that morning. She couldn't get back at her boss, but she could get revenge on that Jawa as a proxy.

Really?
...
Ok if this is the official explanation then I guess I have no choice but to roll with it.

But I now feel doubly vindicated in my belief not only was the pacing and flow of the scenes weird(well not just this scene, the entire film really) if this was the intention meant to be conveyed, but Rey is also kind of a dousche.

Imagine you're a hard working scavenger on Jakku, you stumble onto a lone droid by itself, you ain't gonna ask too many questions (oh you've got a master? ok where is this master? oh how convenient...Yeah come with me droidy, you're my paycheck for this month), then you have this self righteous prat come along and take away your finding, all because she got screwed a bit so therefore she is justified in screwing others. That poor Jawa.

Anyways so much for Jakku hardening her views on life, Rey was already prone to the highest acts of goodie two shoe-isms even before meeting with Finn if this is true. It's pretty firmly established droids are considered non entities in the star wars setting, and it should go doubly true on a planet of scavengers.

Also whilst we at it, since I've seen people mention it and I missed it during my own viewing. How did she afford her simulator training for her later piloting skills? One thing I thought the film had firmly established was she was dirt poor and struggling to even get the essentials?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Really?
...
Ok if this is the official explanation then I guess I have no choice but to roll with it.

That's not really how I read it, although Rey does clearly have a "do the right thing" streak running through her, as all Star Wars protagonists do. Rey's primary characterization beat is LONELINESS. It's exemplified in her actions, particularly her rapid gravitation to and attachment to anyone who shows her the slightest bit of warmth. She was abandoned on a hostile world with an unpleasant caretaker as a tiny child. She has a geas like compulsion to wait for a mysterious "family" she barely seems to remember. They also gave you a linger shot of her looking at the old woman doing the same task as her, contrasted with a longing glance at a ship leaving the planet, which very quickly and easily establishes both a yearning for adventure and a fear of growing old and dying without anything ever changing for her. Hence, the resistance is exciting, Finn is exciting, Han is exciting. BB8...she speaks Droid. She intervened on his behalf because it was the right thing to do, and then grudgingly let him hang around because she wanted company. When offered rations for him, her first instinct is to take them, but like Luke she views Droids as sentient and worthwhile individuals, and can't bring herself to functionally sell him into slavery.

Also whilst we at it, since I've seen people mention it and I missed it during my own viewing. How did she afford her simulator training for her later piloting skills? One thing I thought the film had firmly established was she was dirt poor and struggling to even get the essentials?

That's in the prequel novel.

Spoiler

During one of her scavenging trips, she came across a flight simulator program, that she installed on a computer that she built from parts that she found. With nothing else to do for most of the time, she kept practicing relentlessly on the simulator, until she ultimately became an expert at various situations on different kinds of ships.

She learned so much that there was little the program could throw her way that would challenge her now. She?d gotten to the point where she would, quite deliberately, do everything she could think of to make things hard on herself, just to see if she could get out of it. Full-throttle atmospheric reentry with repulsor-engine failure? No sweat. Multiple hull breach deep-space engine flameout? A walk in the park.

 

[happyninja42]

Please no. If burning the EU does only one good thing, it's hopefully to have destroyed the Thrawn story. *shudders* God that was a terrible piece of writing, and it deserves to never see the light of cinema.

*pretentious voice, actually Stewie Griffen would be appropriate here* "I've studied their aaaart, thus I know how they will operate in a battle. MMMM, yesssss, I'm so perfect and wonderful, all bow before my brillllllliant military mind. All you Luddites are beneath my perfect execution of every battle. Mmm, yesssss."

That's in the prequel novel.

Spoiler

During one of her scavenging trips, she came across a flight simulator program, that she installed on a computer that she built from parts that she found. With nothing else to do for most of the time, she kept practicing relentlessly on the simulator, until she ultimately became an expert at various situations on different kinds of ships.

She learned so much that there was little the program could throw her way that would challenge her now. She?d gotten to the point where she would, quite deliberately, do everything she could think of to make things hard on herself, just to see if she could get out of it. Full-throttle atmospheric reentry with repulsor-engine failure? No sweat. Multiple hull breach deep-space engine flameout? A walk in the park.

Interesting. I would've liked for them to at least take a few moments to show that in the movie. I personally don't like it if I have to outsource my knowledge in order for a bit of entertainment to make sense. I mean, that time she's sitting there, with the flight helmet on, just...sitting there, which was a good scene to establish her loneliness. But they could've given us a scene of her as a gamer, flying through the simulator. Maybe when she hears BB8 or something. Just an example of "this is how she passes her time, and how she's got some idea on how to fly". It's a minor thing, and my original answer of "she's using the Force to figure it out on the fly" worked fine for me on first viewing. But if they took the time to actually establish her skill set, they should've taken the time to establish that in the movie itself.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Interesting. I would've liked for them to at least take a few moments to show that in the movie. I personally don't like it if I have to outsource my knowledge in order for a bit of entertainment to make sense. I mean, that time she's sitting there, with the flight helmet on, just...sitting there, which was a good scene to establish her loneliness. But they could've given us a scene of her as a gamer, flying through the simulator. Maybe when she hears BB8 or something. Just an example of "this is how she passes her time, and how she's got some idea on how to fly". It's a minor thing, and my original answer of "she's using the Force to figure it out on the fly" worked fine for me on first viewing. But if they took the time to actually establish her skill set, they should've taken the time to establish that in the movie itself.

Oh totally. The film could have done with about 15 minutes extra of establishing shots and quiet, character building moments. Probably could've cut the Cthulu Monster sequence to make room and not lost anything.

 

[Frankster]

guppy snippy

I much prefer your interpretation then. The loneliness part is one of the few tangible impressions I got from Rey's time on Jakku and it's the one theme I felt was consistent throughout the film and the sole aspect of her character I never questioned, so never found her befriending Finn or Han weird for that reason.

I'm still not a fan of randomly intervening to save droids even with that reason though. Why isn't her house full of random droids she either saved/found or put back together? Or actually maybe it was but the scene went by too fast..Hum I dunno anymore.

As for the simulator bit, so it's in supplemental material that's barely, if at all (I certainly missed it if it was there) referenced in the film? Well can't blame people for feeling her sudden piloting skills are somewhat hax then.
As someone who was buying into her tough life as poor scavenger background this was the second part that took me out of it, nothing I had seen foreshadowed that she could pilot something, being a force user in itself wouldn't have taught her how to fly or pilot something she never used before and from what we saw, had no basis of comparison. Heck due to not being shown driving a land vehicle and walking around everywhere I was honestly under the impression she didn't know how to even drive, let alone fly.

Now I'm being reminded of two shamus young articles (I think it was from him anyway). Might even have been the same article.
One was an article that went on about how a universe is somewhat poorly constructed if you have to go look into supplementary material so that things in the film or game or w/e make sense to you.
The other# (or the same) was how if you have enough moments where a character seems to be acting weird or illogical, then you start experiencing more and more cognitive dissonance due to looking at the character with more scrutiny, until your suspension of disbelief starts to unravel completely and the character ends up standing out like a sore thumb.

Right now I'm feeling like both those articles apply to me in regard to Rey.

Oh totally. The film could have done with about 15 minutes extra of establishing shots and quiet, character building moments. Probably could've cut the Cthulu Monster sequence to make room and not lost anything.

+100000
I said elsewhere I feel like scenes were missing, and at the very least Jakku could have benefited from more scenes establishing Rey so people like me wouldn't need to be informed in random internet threads about things that should have been made clearer in the film.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As for the simulator bit, so it's in supplemental material that's barely, if at all (I certainly missed it if it was there) referenced in the film? Well can't blame people for feeling her sudden piloting skills are somewhat hax then.

Well, technically it was the official novelization. The film crammed quite a bit of (IMO) essential stage building material into the novelization and trimmed it for the film to get the running time down. Perils of a film trying to do too much. ANH got to tell a much leaner story, with a much smaller cast, yet had a similar run time.

As someone who was buying into her tough life as poor scavenger background this was the second part that took me out of it, nothing I had seen foreshadowed that she could pilot something, being a force user in itself wouldn't have taught her how to fly or pilot something she never used before and from what we saw, had no basis of comparison. Heck due to not being shown driving a land vehicle and walking around everywhere I was honestly under the impression she didn't know how to.

She tells you, though. In the film. "I'm a pilot" and "I've flown before, just not off world". That's really as much establishment as we should need. Poe Dameron tells us he's a crackerjack pilot and that "I can fly anything", even (apparently) a new model Tie Fighter he's apparently never been inside before. We just accept it on faith. With Rey, we demand to see her credentials. It was the same with Luke. Oh I used to bullseye womp rats. Not really the same thing, Luke, but okay, we're going to go with it. The proper response to Rey saying "I'm a pilot" is "Huh, interesting, I wonder where she learned" and not necessarily "Bullshit, what a wretched character and poorly constructed universe!".

The other# (or the same) was how if you have enough moments where a character seems to be acting weird or illogical, then you start experiencing more and more cognitive dissonance due to looking at the character with more scrutiny, until your suspension of disbelief starts to unravel completely and the character ends up standing out like a sore thumb.

Right now I'm feeling like both those articles apply to me in regard to Rey.

I find Rey to be a very classically constructed, archetypal character. I don't find there to be much of anything "weird" or "illogical" about her. She has very traditional protagonist beats, very clear (if, at this point, simple) characterizations and motivations, was acted and scripted consistently, etc, etc. The primary wall of complaints hurled at her is "She's too powerful" and/or "She's demonstrating too much mastery of Force Power 7.2b, which, if we consult our chart, says...". None of that actually speaks to characterization, it's in-universe nitpicking. A universe stuffed to the gills with god-like Emperors, space ships that fight like naval vessels, moon sized super weapons, a panoply of aliens all breathing the same atmospheres unassisted, space magic, and more. "Rey seems to be a slightly more competent pilot than her simple explanation might have allowed for...my suspension of disbelief is OUT THE WINDOW". You can understand, I hope, why I've been having such a hard time swallowing some of the criticism.

 

[Entaris]

Mary Sue/Gary Stu are just essentially all but perfect characters with no particular negative flaws, and are able to do just about anything inexplicably without having any demonstrable potential for the thing they are doing to the degree or manner they are doing it.

A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is also in some sense supposedly how the writer wants to see themselves so it is believed the more perfect the character is the more likely that is how the writer wants to be.

Mary Sue/Gary Stu is not necessarily a bad thing however, because it requires characters around them/adversaries to have more notable flaws which can lead to interesting character development.

 

[happyninja42]

Interesting. I would've liked for them to at least take a few moments to show that in the movie. I personally don't like it if I have to outsource my knowledge in order for a bit of entertainment to make sense. I mean, that time she's sitting there, with the flight helmet on, just...sitting there, which was a good scene to establish her loneliness. But they could've given us a scene of her as a gamer, flying through the simulator. Maybe when she hears BB8 or something. Just an example of "this is how she passes her time, and how she's got some idea on how to fly". It's a minor thing, and my original answer of "she's using the Force to figure it out on the fly" worked fine for me on first viewing. But if they took the time to actually establish her skill set, they should've taken the time to establish that in the movie itself.

Oh totally. The film could have done with about 15 minutes extra of establishing shots and quiet, character building moments. Probably could've cut the Cthulu Monster sequence to make room and not lost anything.

Yeah, I think just about everyone, lovers and haters of the movie alike, agree that the tentacle monster scene was a lot of filler. Though it did give us a scene to establish that "Yes, this is indeed still Han Solo, the scoundrel and con artist you remember." Which was honestly a really fun scene. They could've done that without the follow up 3 minute tentacle chase, but hey, *shrugs*. If they could've given me that "Han tries to charm the 2 bounty hunter groups" scene somewhere else, and used that time to flesh out Rey a bit, that would be great. But overall...eh, I'm ok with it. It was funny, if a bit filler.

As someone who was buying into her tough life as poor scavenger background this was the second part that took me out of it, nothing I had seen foreshadowed that she could pilot something, being a force user in itself wouldn't have taught her how to fly or pilot something she never used before and from what we saw, had no basis of comparison. Heck due to not being shown driving a land vehicle and walking around everywhere I was honestly under the impression she didn't know how to.

She tells you, though. In the film. "I'm a pilot" and "I've flown before, just not off world". That's really as much establishment as we should need. Poe Dameron tells us he's a crackerjack pilot and that "I can fly anything", even (apparently) a new model Tie Fighter he's apparently never been inside before. We just accept it on faith. With Rey, we demand to see her credentials. It was the same with Luke. Oh I used to bullseye womp rats. Not really the same thing, Luke, but okay, we're going to go with it. The proper response to Rey saying "I'm a pilot" is "Huh, interesting, I wonder where she learned" and not necessarily "Bullshit, what a wretched character and poorly constructed universe!".

*snerks* This response amuses me. xD And an excellent point. Nobody seems to be bitching about Po Dameron's piloting skills, and where he learned them. Though, to be a bit of a devil's advocate, he wasn't isolated for the majority of his life on a desert world with nothing but burned out husks of starships. So it's a bit easier to assume he took some piloting lessons somewhere. Also, he flew there in an X-Wing, which would mean he had piloting before, or else how did he get there. xD But yeah I get your point, and agree.

 

[Frankster]

You can understand, I hope, why I've been having such a hard time swallowing some of the criticism.

Yeah I can and I respect that.
I can't speak for what others say though, I can only speak for myself and I hope I'm able to somewhat convey why Rey was a character I felt was lame in her portrayal and a lot of moments involving her took me out of the film.
If those scenes didn't break your suspension then it's understandable you wouldn't come to the same conclusion but it did for me, and all I can do is try to explain why in my somewhat lacking in eloquence style.

-"I'm a pilot, i've just never flown before", me in cinema: Really o0? Because I wasn't even sure she knew how to drive, let alone fly. But I was still somewhat accepting it by this point, it's only later once my suspension of disbelief had been totally unraveled that I demanded to see her credentials and was suddenly skeptical of aspects of her character.
I didn't go in the cinema wanting to hate Rey, I honestly didn't even know what her role in the film was, at first I was rolling with her character and over time more and more things about her niggled at me until we arrive at where we are now.

Poe:I'm the best resistance pilot. Me: Ok a cocky dude then. *later on after watching a few scenes of him flying* Ok I guess he really is the best pilot after all... And I hate how he is making it look too easy in comparison to established awesome pilots from before. Poe is very close to being a character I dislike, I've stated as such elsewhere a few times, all he needs is more scenes to confirm if I should dislike him or not. At very least he somehow has the magical ability of making starfighter battles look unexciting even with his stupidly high kill counts (that might actually be a factor, his super awesome flying skills seem to have no "weight" behind it).
Regardless it didn't break my suspension of disbelief to accept that if you can fly some models of starfighters, then you can fly others, makes sense there's some overlap there.
Depending on how next film goes though, you might very well find me ranting in these forums about how BS Poe is, we will see...

And for luke, no it wasn't the just the shooting womprats part, it was the "i used to fly my t-80 all the time" and showing him driving around the desert with his desert speeder or whatever it was (as nonsensical as driving and flying having the same crossover skills is, it seems to be the rule in star wars). He was also comfortably middle class, it's why none of the skills he display seem weird. Rey is supposed was presented as a scavenger with a hard knock life and when she is shown living her normal life it's her mechanical skills that come to the forefront. This is why I don't demand to see Rey's credentials when repairing the falcon, I've accepted Rey is an awesome mechanic, vastly better then Luke was if we are going to make comparisons to him.

-Being way too good at the force was another moment of o0 for me, but some of it might come from my EU influence. Specifically jedi mind trick is one of the more advanced techniques, Anakin Skywalker, the friggin chosen one, was said to be very weak at this for example (and since the clone wars haven't been retconned, I believe this is still cannon).
And Rey learns it after 3 tries? Yeah, that took me out of it all right and I don't think I'm in the wrong for feeling that way even if I can respect that you don't feel likewise.

Yes it's in universe nit picking, but that's what happens when suspension of disbelief happens for me. Look at what I say with Poe for a non Rey example. Had Poe been at the forefront instead of Rey it might well be him I rant about instead.

If it was just rey being a slightly more competent pilot (well in my case it was her knowing how to pilot full stop) or just one scene where things felt weird to methen I wouldn't be disliking Rey like this. It's a whole combination of a lot of scenes she is in that resulted in my suspension of disbelief in a setting with all those fantastical elements.
It's not 1 example, it's a lot more then that, and by the time she sent Ren running away with her tail between his legs then did the mind trick I was like "ok im done, Rey is worst character of the film". It wasn't one scene that did it, it was a lot of them, again sorry for repeating that but I want to make clear I did not start to hate Rey after one scene that irked me, I gave her the same chances I would any other character and came to dislike her all on my own without being influenced by the net or anything else.

Otherwise I don't dispute her being an archetypical character, that much was obvious even to me. But I ain't fond of those characters by default (it's why I usually tend to prefer the bad guys in fiction or at least secondary characters to the main ones). Still that's not the reason I dislike Rey, I hope that much at least was clear.

*snerks* This response amuses me. xD And an excellent point. Nobody seems to be bitching about Po Dameron's piloting skills, and where he learned them.

Oi, stop that snerking, I've bitched about Poe plenty for the far fewer scenes he got and I'm not "nobody". And as I said, Poe isn't in enough scenes so it's harder for him to reach the BS levels Rey does, but given enough scenes he might well surpass her.

 

[happyninja42]

*snerks* This response amuses me. xD And an excellent point. Nobody seems to be bitching about Po Dameron's piloting skills, and where he learned them.

Oi, stop that snerking, I've bitched about Poe plenty for the far fewer scenes he got and I'm not "nobody". And as I said, Poe isn't in enough scenes so it's harder for him to reach the BS levels Rey does, but given enough scenes he might well surpass her.

I shall snerk if I feel like it good sir!!....or, well I assume you're a sir, with a name like Frankster. Let me try that again. *clears throat* "I shall snerk if I feel like it good gender non-specific entity!"

I didn't read any of your posts, this thread is 6 pages long, and is officially in my "skip to the most recent responses and look for interesting bits to reply to" category. I agree that you are not nobody, my point, that you so pedantically corrected, was that there isn't a large outcry against Po, when his credentials are just as assumed to be there like Rey's are. We assume he's a good pilot, and the majority of people don't seem to have a problem with this.

Side question: I've seen Wedge brought up several times in this. Honestly, he's just as unestablished of an "ace" pilot as anyone else. In the movies, and not counting any of the EU where he was clearly established as being a good pilot...he's not that special. He flies with several other people, and does an ok job. At no point in the original trilogy does anyone clarify that Wedge is an ace pilot. He's just there, and people recognized the name. So if it's ok for Wedge to be an ace pilot without any actual establishment in the movies of this fact, then it's ok for Rey to be one too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"I'm a pilot, i've just never flown before", me in cinema: Really o0?

Never flew *off planet* before. She had rudimentary training via the simulator, and was naturally gifted at it due to being force sensitive...just like Anakin and Luke. Who will quite probably be revealed as her grandfather and father, respectively, but that's speculation.

Depending on how next film goes though, you might very well find me ranting in these forums about how BS Poe is, we will see...

Just wait and see if he does, after all, turn out to be gay. I'm guessing he'll take over as the go-to "contentious" character at that point.

And for luke, no it wasn't the just the shooting womprats part, it was the "i used to fly my t-80 all the time"

t-80? What's a t-80? Can't find it in Wookiepedia. X-Wing models go up to t-70, but the t-70 is a Resistance model, putting it 30 years after the events of ROTJ. I also don't remember this line from the script. I'm not doubting you, just wondering where it is and what specifically Luke was referring to. I know he had flight training, he was interested in joining the Academy.

This is why I don't demand to see Rey's credentials when repairing the falcon, I've accepted Rey is an awesome mechanic, vastly better then Luke was if we are going to make comparisons to him.

Ironically, it was her mechanical knowledge I felt occasionally got oversold. They put in some half dozen or more establishing shots about what a great mechanic she was, which is excessive for the purpose and begins to feel like overkill.

And Rey learns it after 3 tries? Yeah, that took me out of it all right and I don't think I'm in the wrong for feeling that way even if I can respect that you don't feel likewise.

Again, all I can suggest is looking up theories on Rey's parentage and childhood. And also to watch all three films before rendering judgment. Do you think it's accidental that the finer details of her past are cloaked in mystery? That her last name is hidden? That LUKE'S saber specifically "calls to her" and triggers a cascade of memories and visions? That she has a vision in her head of Luke's whereabouts? That R2-D2 activates from torpor when she arrives at the base? That she specifically demonstrates piloting skill and mechanical aptitude, traits that are found in a particular famous lineage? That she was left/hidden on a desert world, mimicking another character's story? That the music that plays when she pulls the saber out of the snow bank is "Burning Homestead", Luke's theme from ANH? That Kylo Ren seems to know, or at least strongly suspect, who she is? That Leia is looking at her towards the end like she knows her? That she was wearing what looked like Padawan clothes when she was left on Jakku? Really we could go on and on.

Think MAYBE she was part of Luke's school, and has had training?

Otherwise I don't dispute her being an archetypical character, that much was obvious even to me. But I ain't fond of those characters by default (it's why I usually tend to prefer the bad guys in fiction or at least secondary characters to the main ones). Still that's not the reason I dislike Rey, I hope that much at least was clear.

She's an archetypal STAR WARS character, is what she is, which has a formula involving people from "humble" origins rising up to take their place at the center of major galactic events, guided by destiny in the form of the force. I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with someone thinking that's a bunch of hooey, because it kind of is. It's the same old heroes journey monomythical nonsense we've been force fed in fantasy fiction since its inception. I just have a hard time understanding how someone could both hate that, and still enjoy Star Wars AT ALL. There's precious little left once you cut it away.

That said, really...you do not have to justify your dislike for a character. I'm just debating you. I don't expect or need you to change your mind.

 

[happyninja42]

And for luke, no it wasn't the just the shooting womprats part, it was the "i used to fly my t-80 all the time"

t-80? What's a t-80? Can't find it in Wookiepedia. X-Wing models go up to t-70, but the t-70 is a Resistance model, putting it 30 years after the events of ROTJ. I also don't remember this line from the script. I'm not doubting you, just wondering where it is and what specifically Luke was referring to. I know he had flight training, he was interested in joining the Academy.

Pretty sure Frankster is misquoting "It's not impossible, I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than 2 meters."

And Rey learns it after 3 tries? Yeah, that took me out of it all right and I don't think I'm in the wrong for feeling that way even if I can respect that you don't feel likewise.

Again, all I can suggest is looking up theories on Rey's parentage and childhood. And also to watch all three films before rendering judgment. Do you think it's accidental that the finer details of her past are cloaked in mystery? That her last name is hidden? That LUKE'S saber specifically "calls to her" and triggers a cascade of memories and visions? That she has a vision in her head of Luke's whereabouts? That R2-D2 activates from torpor when she arrives at the base? That she specifically demonstrates piloting skill and mechanical aptitude, traits that are found in a particular famous lineage? That she was left/hidden on a desert world, mimicking another character's story? That the music that plays when she pulls the saber out of the snow bank is "Burning Homestead", Luke's theme from ANH? That Kylo Ren seems to know, or at least strongly suspect, who she is? That Leia is looking at her towards the end like she knows her? That she was wearing what looked like Padawan clothes when she was left on Jakku? Really we could go on and on.

Think MAYBE she was part of Luke's school, and has had training?

Not to mention, Luke learned how to Force Pull his lightsaber in ESB without any training, and nobody seems to gripe about that. Or at least I haven't heard anyone. He just, apparently, learned how to do it on his own. Why should he think the Force would allow him to move objects? From what we see in New Hope, Ben makes no mention of this particular ability. But Luke does it. So I see no reason why Rey couldn't also, equally naturally figure out how to:
1. Resist someone trying to enter her mind and root around for information.
2. Having realized the Force can let you mess with someone's head, (having just resisted it), tries to use it to make the Trooper set her free.

I still think she's a surviving padawan, but even if she isn't, it seems pretty reasonable from what we see.