Open Letter to Parents of League of Legends' Players

FirstNameLastName

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Am I the only one perplexed that we are even making this much of a big deal out of ... a rather innocuous forum post on some website? (Yes, I am aware that I'm posting in this tread and thus contributing to it, no need to point that out.) It's not like the post is some incoherent mess, nor is it completely unreasonable. I don't necessarily agree with what they are saying, but at least seems significantly better written, thought out and more polite than the vast majority of posts on the internet.
It really doesn't seem outlandish enough to warrant an unbelievably smug response from penny arcade.
 

Mutant1988

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FirstNameLastName said:
Am I the only one perplexed that we are even making this much of a big deal out of ... a rather innocuous forum post on some website? (Yes, I am aware that I'm posting in this tread and thus contributing to it, no need to point that out.) It's not like the post is some incoherent mess, nor is it completely unreasonable. I don't necessarily agree with what they are saying, but at least seems significantly better written, thought out and more polite than the vast majority of posts on the internet.
It really doesn't seem outlandish enough to warrant an unbelievably smug response from penny arcade.
He's telling parents how to raise their children because they quit a match of a video game he was in.

If it was that big of a deal to finish the game, why didn't he make sure in advance to play with people that wouldn't quit for any reason?

He's asking for other people to fix a problem he himself should have seen as a possibility.

Why? Because other people do not exist solely to facilitate our entertainment.

There can be any number of reasons for why they add, detract or ruin our entertainment, accidental or not. That's the risk you take by playing multiplayer.

This is such an overreaction it isn't even funny. The guy needs to see a psychiatrist.
 

w23eer

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Denamic said:
It's basic netiquette to finish games you commit to. Nevermind imaginary points; if you up and leave 30 minutes into a game, you're taking a shit on up to 9 other player's time. It may be 'just a game', but the time and effort put into it is very real. It's very disrespectful to disregard it as insignificant.
I agree with this sentiment, but I still disagree with the letter.
(Please note what I'm about to say isn't necessarily aimed at you).

If a kid started a match he couldn't finish in time, that's his fault. The onus of netiquette is not on the parents - if the kid was responsible he would have not started a game at all, or at least played unranked (they have unranked game modes in LoL right?).

I don't have kids, or play LoL, so I'm probably the least informed type of person in this situation. But in my ignorant opinion, casting blame on the kid's parents for trying to be responsible parents is ludicrous. If the kid didn't know how much spare time he had, he should have found out. If, for whatever weird reason, he couldn't know then he should have played it safe with (again) and unranked game mode.

No matter what way you spin it, unless the kid was misinformed for whatever reason, this is always the kid's fault. His lack of proactive time management skills is what let down those nine other people, not his parents.
 

FirstNameLastName

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Mutant1988 said:
FirstNameLastName said:
Am I the only one perplexed that we are even making this much of a big deal out of ... a rather innocuous forum post on some website? (Yes, I am aware that I'm posting in this tread and thus contributing to it, no need to point that out.) It's not like the post is some incoherent mess, nor is it completely unreasonable. I don't necessarily agree with what they are saying, but at least seems significantly better written, thought out and more polite than the vast majority of posts on the internet.
It really doesn't seem outlandish enough to warrant an unbelievably smug response from penny arcade.
He's telling parents how to raise their children because they quit a match of a video game he was in.

If it was that big of a deal to finish the game, why didn't he make sure in advance to play with people that wouldn't quit for any reason?

He's asking for other people to fix a problem he himself should have seen as a possibility.

Why? Because other people do not exist solely to facilitate our entertainment.

There can be any number of reasons for why they add, detract or ruin our entertainment, accidental or not. That's the risk you take by playing multiplayer.

This is such an overreaction it isn't even funny. The guy needs to see a psychiatrist.
I hope you see how funny it sounds to make those two claims one after the other. To me the idea that someone should see a psychiatrist due to a single (relatively calm and well articulated, if a little petty) post on the internet, is in itself an overreaction.
 

nuclearday

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I don't actually play League of Legends, but as a parent myself I can toss in my two cents from that perspective:

Overall I feel I understand the gist of the open letter. I'm sure if you're playing a match online and have already invested a degree of time into it (as a parent, most days I'm lucky even to get half an hour of gaming in) having a young team-mate pulled from the game by a parent who doesn't really understand what their child is doing or what impact that has on other people would certainly be frustrating. In that regard, I can get behind an attempt to educate parents about how the game they're allowing their children to play works.

I'm a long-time gamer. At the moment my son is only 3 years old, so we don't play a lot of videogames; but I still try to make it a point to know what games we're playing together and make appropriate choices. He may really want to play Lego Batman 3 right before we have to go to day-care, but if we don't have enough time to get through the story mission he wants to play, then we're just not going to start it.

I think what's going to irk a lot of parents (especially non-gamers) is that this does seem to be coming from someone who doesn't have kids of their own. And one thing parents universally tire of very quickly is parenting advice from people who just - to be frank - don't know what they're talking about.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to want parents to understand what sort of game they are allowing their kids to play. And if it's an online game (where you can't just pause the game come dinner time and pick up later on) to have some understanding of the time commitment involved - that their child is playing with other real people, and that joining a match is an implicit agreement to finish the game, barring unforeseen circumstances.

I would never allow my son to start an online game ten minutes before dinner or another pending obligation - if he were to want to play something like that, we'd need to allot an appropriate amount of time in the day's schedule to allow for that. In that regard I don't find anything untoward about the open letter - that just sounds like reasonable and responsible parenting, and having some idea of what you're child is doing with their free time.

Where I would disagree is the hypothetical situation toward the end of the letter wherein he had started a match right before dinner or bedtime even after I'd said he couldn't. Sorry, but that kid's going to get his computer turned off - I might let him briefly apologize to his team-mates before quitting, but there's no situation I can imagine where I'd allow my child to continue an activity like that after I'd said he couldn't - regardless of whether I later grounded him or suspended his gaming privileges.

In short - absolutely I agree that the proper and responsible thing to do as a parent is to be aware of the nature of the game your child is playing, and to properly allocate time for that. I could even see waiting on dinner for fifteen minutes or so if a match was running a bit long (again though, I'm a gamer as well.) That's just common courtesy. I think it would be irresponsible to allow my child to start up matches with no regard to how that fit into the day's schedule, and would take little effort on my part to help him find time to play at appropriate times of the day. I think it's understandable that by joining an online match, you're implicitly agreeing to certain time investment for all involved.

But if my son's misbehaving and starting up a match after I'd told him not to? Then that's his fault - it's on him that he'd be letting down his team-mates by starting a match he knew he wouldn't be able to finish or at a time he wasn't supposed to be playing it. I wouldn't reward him by allowing him to finish the match - just as if he'd run off to go play football down the street with his friends after I'd said he couldn't, I'd really have little choice but to hunt him down and drag him back home - kicking and screaming - even if that meant his "team" lost the game.
 

Mutant1988

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FirstNameLastName said:
I hope you see how funny it sounds to make those two claims one after the others. To me the idea that someone should see a psychiatrist due to a single (relatively calm and well articulated, if a little petty) post on the internet, is in itself an overreaction.
Anyone that is angry about quitters in a video game long enough to write a letter to their parents to tell them how to be parents has problems that they should speak about with a professional.

And for the record, I see a psychiatrist. It's not that big of a deal to see one of them.
 

Ariseishirou

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Eh, if you're that worried about your stats, play ranked. If there's a kid in ranked whose parents keep making him leave early, he'll be hit with big-time bans. Otherwise just report the kid for leaving in your regular queue and accept it as the price of playing with randoms.

That said, asking parents to show a modicum of foresight and respect to fellow human beings by instituting a "no League after an hour before your bedtime/dinnertime/other appointment" isn't exactly asking them to walk through fire, either.

The letter is over the top, but the nigh-hysterical Penny Arcade response is even more so.
 

FirstNameLastName

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Mutant1988 said:
FirstNameLastName said:
I hope you see how funny it sounds to make those two claims one after the others. To me the idea that someone should see a psychiatrist due to a single (relatively calm and well articulated, if a little petty) post on the internet, is in itself an overreaction.
Anyone that is angry about quitters in a video game long enough to write a letter to their parents to tell them how to be parents has problems that they should speak about with a professional.

And for the record, I see a psychiatrist. It's not that big of a deal to see one of them.
Neither is it a big deal to make a post on the internet. After all, we are both posting on a forum at this very moment.

I'm not disagreeing that it is rather petty, I'm just not seeing why this is generating ire from anyone. If it were a massive wall of text filled with hostility and cursing then I could understand, but it's just a simple post that looks no longer (and a good deal calmer) than the majority of posts on this site.
 

nuclearday

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Ariseishirou said:
That said, asking parents to show a modicum of foresight and respect to fellow human beings by instituting a "no League after an hour before your bedtime/dinnertime/other appointment" isn't exactly asking them to walk through fire, either.

The letter is over the top, but the nigh-hysterical Penny Arcade response is even more so.
Agreed - I think it's a perfectly reasonable and understandable request to ask parents to put in the minimal amount of effort required to help their kid schedule an appropriate time for the game. Nothing's ever perfect and few things make life messier than raising a kid - there's always going to be situations where I'll likely have to pull my son from a game no matter what. But like my own father always said - it doesn't cost anything to try and be polite.

But again we're talking about the internet, so inevitably the reaction to anything will be over-the-top hostility and knee-jerk defensiveness...
 

theNater

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A few people have mentioned the fact that leaving the game early is rude, but nobody's commented on the fact that making dinner wait for the game to be over is also rude. This letter is saying it's better to be rude to the people you live with and see every day than to a group of strangers you may never see again. I disagree.
 

Mutant1988

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I think some gamers should learn that games aren't the most important thing in the world and again, I reiterate, that others are not around to facilitate your entertainment.

If he wanted to minimize the risk of someone quitting on his team he could have, you know, a team of friends to play with.

I mean, that sounds like the sane solution to me. But then again I don't obsess over rankings in what is essentially a digital toy.

theNater said:
A few people have mentioned the fact that leaving the game early is rude, but nobody's commented on the fact that making dinner wait for the game to be over is also rude. This letter is saying it's better to be rude to the people you live with and see every day than to a group of strangers you may never see again. I disagree.
No, it's worse. It's saying that parents are rude to interrupt their kids playing a video game.

He's asking for parents to correct how they raise their children, for the purpose of keeping those children around to finish playing the game with him.
 

nuclearday

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Mutant1988 said:
He's asking for parents to correct how they raise their children, for the purpose of keeping those children around to finish playing the game with him.
As a parent, though, I don't think that's an untoward suggestion. If you're playing online, you're playing with other real people. To me, a game with other people is a game with other people. The rules are same whether my son is playing down the street with friends in person, has friends over to play videogames at home, or is playing online with other people - I don't think it's asking too much to treat them all the same as far as time commitments go.

I wouldn't let my kid go down to the park to play a game of football with his friends ten minutes before dinner started - so I don't think it's too much to ask to treat videogames the same way. If he wants to play football with his friends then the responsible thing for me as a parent is to find an appropriate time in the day for him to do that. If instead he wants to play an online game, then it's still the same thing.

However, if he ran down to the park to play with his friends after I told him not to, then I'd drag him back home for dinner. I wouldn't let him finish the game. Likewise, if he started an online match after I'd said it wasn't time for that, I would boot him. The thing I would disagree with in the letter is that I wouldn't let him finish the match and reserve punishment for later - at best I'd let him apologize to him team-mates before logging him off.
 

McMarbles

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Wow, I can't believe people think some gamers have an overblown sense of entitlement.

Clearly, it's amazingly inconsiderate that some people value their family over imaginary monsters.
 

Mutant1988

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inu-kun said:
I think a better solution is just seperating the community, like make dedicated server for serious players and unleash hell on people leaving mid game, and one for casual games where it's not the end of the world if someone leaves, something like that.

The question of which will be more foul mouthed is an interesting one.
That wouldn't work when half the marketing is how much of an E-sport the game is. That's why it's such a toxic game, because it's inherently competitive. That in combination with the cognitive disconnect that's created by not being in the same room with the one you're talking to (Laymans terms - Within punching distance) leads to terrible behaviour.

Everyone would opt for the "pro" ladder, regardless.

Public games are always and will always be a gamble on how much entertainment it will give you. I think people just need to accept that sometimes you just get dealt a bad game. Better that it is in a video game than anywhere else.

Be angry, get over it, join another game. Or if you're that angry, quit playing multiplayer.
 

ForumSafari

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My sympathies are torn.

Realistically children playing games are not allowed to trump their parents preparing dinner and your silly cartoon man in your favourite Warcraft 3 mod-cum-game is nothing more than a mental crossword, put the damn imaginary game down.

On the other hand I play p&p so I appreciate how annoying it is having someone drop out at the last minute or mid way through.

The correct solution is for grown ups playing super cereal games to not play with children. I mean, to put this in perspective we have what is presumably an adult here getting annoyed at parents for taking their kids away for dinner because he wanted to play 'pretend' with them. Even ignoring that this kind of game is a magnet for the socially inept and your kid shouldn't be playing it anyway this is slightly weird.

sonofliber said:
Yeah lets fuck people over, fuck the randoms, those non exisitant non me or my family people, its not like they are humans too
Dude, I know we're in the Games Are Art HQ and all but it is just a game.
 

Kolyarut

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This is only being discussed in the first place because the thing in question is a videogame. If it was literally any other kind of time commitment whatsoever, people wouldn't be on their high horses to anything near the same degree. If their kid was in a play, or a football game, or taking an exam, would people readily accept a parent storming in, taking their kid, and walking out ten minutes before the end?

When you start a LoL match, you commit to being there for anything up to the next hour. That's a time commitment the same as any other. It's not like a single player game, or reading a book, or watching TV, where the start and end points are negotiable. If your kid can't commit to that, they can't play League of League of Legends right now. They'll have to do literally anything else in the world instead. That's what this letter is driving at.

In cases where the kid's started playing against the wishes or without the knowledge of their parents, this stops being a black and white issue. But as a parent, if you let the kid start playing and then haul them off of it before the end, then yes, you're being a dick.

Mutant1988 said:
I think some gamers should learn that games aren't the most important thing in the world and again, I reiterate, that others are not around to facilitate your entertainment.
Commitment arguably *is* the most important thing in the world. Everyone should learn that if you commit to things you see them through. If you can't keep your promises, there better be a damn good reason. "I started playing without asking and now I can't see it through" is a bad reason. "My dad told me I could but then went back on his word" is also a bad reason.

The interaction with other people is a two way street here. Everyone is entering into game under the social contract that they will both entertain and be entertained by each other. That's literally how multiplayer games work. The nature of MOBAs is that you can't draft in replacements when one person drops, which is why everyone commits, by pressing the Play button, to staying there until the end.
 

Mutant1988

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Kolyarut said:
Commitment arguably *is* the most important thing in the world. Everyone should learn that if you commit to things you see them through. If you can't keep your promises, there better be a damn good reason. "I started playing without asking and now I can't see it through" is a bad reason. "My dad told me I could but then went back on his word" is also a bad reason.

The interaction with other people is a two way street here. Everyone is entering into game under the social contract that they will both entertain and be entertained by each other. That's literally how multiplayer games work. The nature of MOBAs is that you can't draft in replacements when one person drops, which is why everyone commits, by pressing the Play button, to staying there until the end.
I don't know how you think people raise their kids... Do you think they micro-manage their actions at all times?

Kid start a game, then dinner is ready, doesn't matter to a parent that they are playing a game. That should not even be a consideration for a parent, to have them let the food go cold because someone on the internet can't accept that everyone else (Or kids specifically) can't stick around to finish a game at all times.

Shit happens. "Real shit." This is not in any way exclusive to kids. Deal with it.
 

Kolyarut

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Mutant1988 said:
I don't know how you think people raise their kids... Do you think they micro-manage their actions at all times?

Kid start a game, then dinner is ready, doesn't matter to a parent that they are playing a game. That should not even be a consideration for a parent, to have them let the food go cold because someone on the internet can't accept that everyone else (Or kids specifically) can't stick around to finish a game at all times.

Shit happens. Deal with it.
I do think parents should be aware of commitments their kids are making, yes. Don't want to manage your kids internet use? Alright. (great parenting, A+) But don't give them free reign to make commitments and then force them to renege on them after it's too late to back out.

Anyone who cannot commit to an hour a game should not be playing in the first place. They should be playing or doing something else, and playing LoL when they are able to commit that time. That applies to everyone, not just kids.
 

Mutant1988

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So make a team and play with them. Hell, that has worked for me in every multiplayer game I've ever played.

Commit to finding players that commit as much as you then, instead of expecting other people (Or their parents) to build their lives around ensuring that you never get a quitter in your video game.

Here's the thing though: You will still get quitters.