Opinion: DOOM is Exactly as Violent and Bloody as It Should Be

Encaen

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Dynast Brass said:
Even I don't think that 6 tweets from the same two people is a case for anything other than their personal views.
I'm not sure I get your meaning here. I wasn't trying to make a "case" for anything. I was offering specific examples of people who publicly shamed gamers who didn't share their personal opinions. This isn't them expressing an opinion. This is them vilifying those they disagree with. Saying that people who like DOOM are "troubling (and depressing)" and there must be "something deeply wrong" with them isn't a critique of the trailer. It's a condemnation of gamers who enjoy a different genre of game than they do.

I'm not trying to suggest that everybody should like DOOM. It's certainly not a game for everybody, and some people will absolutely hate it. I'm still not going to go out and publicly shame people that don't like it. That's ridiculous.
 

someguy1231

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We shouldn't even need to respond to these sorts of people. Doing so is only giving them what they want: undeserved attention.
 

Darkmantle

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I'm glad to see the escapist taking this position.

Lately I feel like we're on a backslide as far as gaming acceptance goes. This is some Jack Thompson level shit right here.

While I appreciate you respecting the other side, I don't think they hold the same opinion of you.
 

F-I-D-O

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DOOM 2 remains my favorite game of all time.
I had a huge grin on my face throughout the entire DOOM reveal at Bethesda's press conference. Because the violence, blood, and gratuitous amounts of execution made me think of how I felt when I played DOOM for the first time. As the editorial said, it wouldn't have been the same if the reveal had even toned it down to DOOM 3 levels.
However, the subjectivity of art means that people have the right to disagree with something and be morally opposed to it. The new DOOM reveal just had blood, guts, and guns. People who had played Bethesda's recent Wolfenstien might have expected the new DOOM to follow a similar path, because W:TNO raised the bar for story based shooters. I can see why they might be upset, and see the new DOOM as a hyperviolent game with nothing else to offer, and been turned off and disapointed as a result.

But that's all I ever wanted from DOOM 4.
 

Kameburger

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There will always be people hell bent on seeing a problem where there probably is none. Even the idea that violence is as prolific in media is something that as an idea I can certainly sympathize with, but we've come to a point where there is really literally nothing positive that comes from the discussion. Anita Sarkeesian made a point to take on DOOM, but it's impossible to argue with her. Who has debates her? She is the most unapproachable figure we have in our industry and those around her are not much better. I understand that the cause of this is largely because of the harassment that was visited on her in reaction to her videos but intellectually speaking all bridges are burnt. In real life I fancy myself quite the feminist, not really a pacifist, but on the internet I feel like a Nazi.

From that perspective I feel like I wish I could say that I feel like I am happy to read this article, but much like politics, every argument has been made from every possible perspective at this point, and still nothing happens. This is because the people who don't already agree simply aren't listening. So I agree, but with the sinking deep feeling of lethargy that comes with knowing that it doesn't matter what I think.
 

R.K. Meades

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LucBen999 said:
Encaen said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Encaen said:
Some of those public reactions (some from very prominent, mainstream-recognized names) didn't say 'this isn't for me." They said "this shouldn't be for anybody." That's never okay.
Such as? Can you cite specific instances, preferably with links and/or direct quotes?
Absolutely, and I applaud a healthy dose of skepticism! https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/610271596675117056

"really troubling (and depressing) that audience is enthusiastically cheering..."
Which is exactly the same as "really troubling (and depressing) that audience [likes something I don't like]"

"troubling (and depressing)" suggests that the people who enjoy something that she doesn't enjoy is causing some kind of emotional trauma. Causing emotional trauma is universally recognized as a bad thing. Hence suggesting that people enjoying something she does not enjoy is a bad thing.

Good - "I'm not into this trailer. It's too violent for me."
Bad - "I'm not into this trailer, and other people enjoying it causes me emotional trauma."

I hope that makes sense, but even if you still disagree with my sentiment, I promise that I won't suggest that it causes me any kind of trauma. :)
Have some more!
"Welcome to the gaming industry." Feel free to find another 'existential threat' to rail against, Jonjon. Imagine how much of a buzzkill this sanctimonious ponce will be if (or when) VR gaming becomes the norm.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Encaen said:
In my opinion, logical analysis of a statement is not the same as redefining said statement, but you're welcome to your own opinion on the matter.
Do you really think rephrasing and adding new meaning counts as "logical analysis?"

As to additional examples, I hope this helps: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.877384-Opinion-DOOM-is-Exactly-as-Violent-and-Bloody-as-It-Should-Be?page=2#22088209
Yes, astonishingly a forum users gave more information than the editor of a journalism site attempting to justify claims made in said publication.

But sure. Let's try this again: is this the sum total of your evidence? Is this what you're talking about? These two people, who are themselves colleagues, are the sum of the "popular" dissent that you're railing against? Why do you feel comments about the response validate your opinion piece about the game? Does McIntosh count as popular, with roughly the same followers as Rap Critic?

What about this do you feel makes the case of your piece?
 

Encaen

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Zachary Amaranth said:
But sure. Let's try this again: is this the sum total of your evidence? Is this what you're talking about? These two people, who are themselves colleagues, are the sum of the "popular" dissent that you're railing against? Why do you feel comments about the response validate your opinion piece about the game? Does McIntosh count as popular, with roughly the same followers as Rap Critic?

What about this do you feel makes the case of your piece?
I feel like our communication has broken down somewhere, and I apologize for any misunderstanding here.

Rest assured, my opinion piece here is strictly a matter of my opinion. It is not meant to be an evidence-based investigative article. It is simply an expression of my thoughts on the matter.

I appreciate that you do not share my views. That's okay. I don't expect everybody to agree with everything I think or say. In fact, that's more or less my point. We've all got different views and opinions, and we should strive to keep it that way.
 

Something Amyss

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Encaen said:
I feel like our communication has broken down somewhere, and I apologize for any misunderstanding here.
One of the ways that we prevent this by happening is asking questions intended to clarify. It's also how we evaluate opinions to determine whether they are well-formulated and worth further examination. That you stopped answering questions intended to clarify how you got from point A to point B to me indicates that this is not such a case. And that's fine. You're not required to answer. But I do think this becomes especially problematic in a situation like this.

You seem to be aware that not all opinions are created equally, as you attempt to distinguish the two dissenters in your piece.

Rest assured, my opinion piece here is strictly a matter of my opinion. It is not meant to be an evidence-based investigative article. It is simply an expression of my thoughts on the matter.
Opinion pieces are opinion. I understand that. But you made claims. When initially asked for evidence, you were happy to share. I am now addressing you on the merit of such evidence. At that point, it's no longer about your opinion piece. However, since the tweets in question do not seem to meet with your opinion piece, it is a valid question to ask how the claims you've made mesh, since you conflated the two in your posts here. Again, this goes to the basis and validity of your opinion. This is something I learned from working with journalists.

I appreciate that you do not share my views. That's okay. I don't expect everybody to agree with everything I think or say. In fact, that's more or less my point. We've all got different views and opinions, and we should strive to keep it that way.
The opinion piece seems to be exactly for the opposite reason, since it calls out the opinions of others solely on the basis that they don't share your values. You didn't welcome criticism, you chastised it and made it out to be a bigger deal than it appears to be. Further, I was sent tweets where you say two such dissenters is too many (though said Tweets also appeared on The Escapist's "water cooler," so it was unnecessary). That sounds like the opposite of what you're saying.

Especially when you attempt to conflate this with "moral panic" and the actual "should not exists" of the original Doom.

Your words seem to be at odds with what you say they mean, and seem to be at odds with the very basis for your claim. I attempted to seek clarification, and was denied. In the absence of such answers, I can only conclude that there isn't a strong foundational basis.

I also find this new notion of criticism to be particularly odd, in that it places a higher standard on video games than any other form of art/entertainment. It seems almost nationalistic in nature, decrying outsiders who don't understand how things really work.

Unfortunately, nobody seems to be willing to answer me as to why games require a special standard under which to operate. One which is simultaneously much more strict to outsiders and much more forgiving to the group itself. That actually sounds more like pro wrestling than actual criticism.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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So, wait. Are we just sitting here talking about an article created because two people who don't like violent games also didn't like Doom? I mean hell, Pikachu's gonna Thunderbolt, Doomgal's gonna chainsaw, Sarkeesian's gonna dislike violence. Demon Gibbing Simulator 2016 is gonna be just fine.

And I'll never use the chainsaw. It forgets the first part of "run and gun".
 

LucBen999

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I for one am happy to finally see a media outlet countering the hogwash they peddle instead of uncritically repeating all their accusations and attacking dissenters.

Thank you Mr. Vanderwall.

The accusations leveled against Doom and its audience are not just a matter of taste, I started a topic about these issues last week:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/663.877106-Ideological-condemnation-political-pressure-is-not-artistic-criticism