Oregon Backlash To Decriminalizing Hard Drugs

[Phoenixmgs]

The saying that the easiest way to make a liberal conservative is just to give them what they want is pretty apt especially now in America. The problem in America is that democrats/liberals want to do shit that makes things worse. Oregon's decriminalization of drugs is the perfect example of this in action. It really only copies another country's policy in intention only and doesn't actually copy the important execution stuff that actually allows the policy to make things at least somewhat better.

 

[Silvanus]

From the opposing view: https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/27/oregon-drug-decriminalization-measure-110-overdose-deaths/

In short: a reported increase in overdoses and visible drug use is often used to argue the move was counterproductive. But that increase could merely reflect a greater willingness to call emergency services when someone OD's.

Researchers say fatal overdoses are a better metric-- and on that metric, the rise in Oregon is in line with other similar states that didn't decriminalise. Suggesting that while decriminalisation didn't reduce usage, it also didn't significantly increase it.

 

[Gergar12]

From the opposing view: https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/27/oregon-drug-decriminalization-measure-110-overdose-deaths/

In short: a reported increase in overdoses and visible drug use is often used to argue the move was counterproductive. But that increase could merely reflect a greater willingness to call emergency services when someone OD's.

Researchers say fatal overdoses are a better metric-- and on that metric, the rise in Oregon is in line with other similar states that didn't decriminalise. Suggesting that while decriminalisation didn't reduce usage, it also didn't significantly increase it.

Counter to that broken windows theory.

When you have people who do drugs in public, set fires, urinate in the streets, be a public nuisance, and yes break windows. There are second-order effects to that. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Yes, don't arrest some pot-smoker who does it on the weekends, or someone doing it for medical purposes. But setting fire to cars is a crime, and can get people killed.


And to those that ask the second-order effects are that many middle-class people leave the city, the blue states get less political power, taxes increase to cover missing tax revenue, remote work increases more than it would without criminals, and homeless people on the streets, and the death spiral continues.

 

[Silvanus]

Counter to that broken windows theory.

When you have people who do drugs in public, set fires, urinate in the streets, be a public nuisance, and yes break windows. There are second-order effects to that. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Yes, don't arrest some pot-smoker who does it on the weekends, or someone doing it for medical purposes. But setting fire to cars is a crime, and can get people killed.

Setting fires, urinating in the streets, breaking windows etc are still all crimes. And Oregon can still prevent doing drugs in public without contradicting the decriminalisation-- it already has in Portland IIRC. Just like how alcohol is perfectly legal here in the UK, but you still can't drink it in an open container on the underground.

And to those that ask the second-order effects are that many middle-class people leave the city, the blue states get less political power, taxes increase to cover missing tax revenue, remote work increases more than it would without criminals, and homeless people on the streets, and the death spiral continues.

Quite aside from just how absurd this slippery slope gets: it's about perception rather than the actual effects of decriminalisation.

Also, I fail to see what the increase in remote working has to do with a 'death spiral'. Remote working is good.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

From the opposing view: https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/27/oregon-drug-decriminalization-measure-110-overdose-deaths/

In short: a reported increase in overdoses and visible drug use is often used to argue the move was counterproductive. But that increase could merely reflect a greater willingness to call emergency services when someone OD's.

Researchers say fatal overdoses are a better metric-- and on that metric, the rise in Oregon is in line with other similar states that didn't decriminalise. Suggesting that while decriminalisation didn't reduce usage, it also didn't significantly increase it.

The video mentions overdoses and/or overdose deaths (forget which one or if it was both) didn't really increase (or very little). It's that people don't want to be walking around town with tons of people in public high on whatever drug they are high on (the reason why public drinking/drunkenness isn't allowed while alcohol is legal obviously). Also, the fact that even if drug use in actuality isn't getting worse, it's also not improving either.

Give people the actual liberal policies they think they want and you'll see them realize they don't actually want it (Portland city council unanimously voted to repel open drug use but they can't override the state order), especially when you half-ass the shit out of it. Other countries have done this, you literally just have to copy/paste what they did, but here in the US, liberals take the teeth out of all these policies and they at best don't work or make things overall worse.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Setting fires, urinating in the streets, breaking windows etc are still all crimes.

Portland doesn't have the cops to attend to those crimes.

Portland’s Police Staffing Crisis: What It Is, Why It Is, and How to Fix It

Like other major cities, Portland, Oregon, has experienced a surge in crime and disorder over the past three years. But unlike other major cities, Portland is uniquely ill-equipped to deal with this problem, because its police department is uniquely understaffed. With just 1.26 officers per...

manhattan.institute

 

[Silvanus]

The video mentions overdoses and/or overdose deaths (forget which one or if it was both) didn't really increase (or very little). It's that people don't want to be walking around town with tons of people in public high on whatever drug they are high on (the reason why public drinking/drunkenness isn't allowed while alcohol is legal obviously). Also, the fact that even if drug use in actuality isn't getting worse, it's also not improving either.

Banning public consumption can be perfectly in line with decriminalisation-- and already is in parts of Oregon. Plenty of things that are legal are disallowed in public-- nudity, sex.

Portland doesn't have the cops to attend to those crimes.

Portland’s Police Staffing Crisis: What It Is, Why It Is, and How to Fix It

Like other major cities, Portland, Oregon, has experienced a surge in crime and disorder over the past three years. But unlike other major cities, Portland is uniquely ill-equipped to deal with this problem, because its police department is uniquely understaffed. With just 1.26 officers per...

manhattan.institute

What's the relevance of that to drug decriminalisation?

Point is: nothing is stopping Oregon from having drugs decriminalised, while also disallowing public consumption and all these second-order crimes Gergar identified.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Banning public consumption can be perfectly in line with decriminalisation-- and already is in parts of Oregon. Plenty of things that are legal are disallowed in public-- nudity, sex.



What's the relevance of that to drug decriminalisation?

Point is: nothing is stopping Oregon from having drugs decriminalised, while also disallowing public consumption and all these second-order crimes Gergar identified.

The point is most of these US liberal policies don't actually help and usually cause harm because they aren't ever actually thought out.

 

[Gordon_4]

The decriminalisation needs to go hand in hand with things like safe injecting rooms, needle exchange and prescription availability of the drug. Likewise rehabilitation and treatments for detoxification should form an integral part of such a policy.

Hang on I need to go and dig out the particulars of the heroin trial we did in Australia like, 20 years ago.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Give people the actual liberal policies they think they want and you'll see them realize they don't actually want it (Portland city council unanimously voted to repel open drug use but they can't override the state order), especially when you half-ass the shit out of it. Other countries have done this, you literally just have to copy/paste what they did, but here in the US, liberals take the teeth out of all these policies and they at best don't work or make things overall worse.

Cool. So conservative are looking to add in all the execution stuff the liberals left out, right?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Cool. So conservative are looking to add in all the execution stuff the liberals left out, right?

Nah, the conservatives are just like "let's not" and at least not making things worse.

 

[Ag3ma]

Honestly, I'm just waiting for the moment Phoenix drops this whole "but both sides / I voted for Bernie" shit and realises that he is, in fact, conservative.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Honestly, I'm just waiting for the moment Phoenix drops this whole "but both sides / I voted for Bernie" shit and realises that he is, in fact, conservative.

Since when is being for probably at least 90% of Sweden/Denmark policy considered conservative? I've literally never voted for a republican...

 

[Silvanus]

The point is most of these US liberal policies don't actually help and usually cause harm because they aren't ever actually thought out.

But we don't have very good metrics to suggest the drug problem actually did get worse due to decriminalisation.

Reported ODs increased, which could be down to people being more likely to report. Fatal ODs (a better metric) did not increase any more than neighbouring states where the activity is illegal. And the public consumption angle doesn't undermine the argument for decriminalisation, since decriminalisation doesn't necessitate legal public consumption.

 

[tstorm823]

Honestly, I'm just waiting for the moment Phoenix drops this whole "but both sides / I voted for Bernie" shit and realises that he is, in fact, conservative.

Are you willing to make that admission about yourself?

 

[Ag3ma]

Are you willing to make that admission about yourself?

I will happily admit I always have had elements of conservative thought in my worldview - although this isn't saying that much as pretty much everyone does to a greater or lesser degree.

Youe weird crusade to convince everyone (who isn't an outright communist) that they are a conservative serves little purpose except to render "conservative" a completely meaningless term.

 

[tstorm823]

I will happily admit I always have had elements of conservative thought in my worldview - although this isn't saying that much as pretty much everyone does to a greater or lesser degree.

I agree with this entirely, and from this (correct) perspective, I don't think @Phoenixmgs will hesitate to agree that he's conservative to a degree.

This response from you doesn't really sync with the suggestion that it would be an admission from Phoenix to be conservative in contradiction to support for progressive ideas.

 

[Silvanus]

I agree with this entirely, and from this (correct) perspective, I don't think @Phoenixmgs will hesitate to agree that he's conservative to a degree.

This response from you doesn't really sync with the suggestion that it would be an admission from Phoenix to be conservative in contradiction to support for progressive ideas.

Do you see no difference between having elements of conservative thought and being a conservative?

 

[tstorm823]

Do you see no difference between having elements of conservative thought and being a conservative?

The comment was not "a conservative". It was just "conservative".

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Does anybody besides particularly centrist libs ever fall for this kind of semantic argument?