Organic Farming

[Lethos]

Hello all,

First a little bit of clarification: I have done absolutely zero research on this topic. So before I get bombarded with insults to my intelligence or claims I make poor life decisions, go easy on me bro.

I've always known that organic farming is a bit of a controversial issue, but today I realised that it seems to go a bit beyond that. People seem to not just have mixed feelings towards organic farming, they seem to actually hate it. Those of you who follow George Takei on Facebook might have noticed he posted a picture advocating organic produce. I was surprised to see that when I skimmed the comments there was a near universal hatred towards organic farming.

Growing up I was always fed organic foods by my mum. I live on my own at university now, but even to this day I still feel a bit uncomfortable drinking non-organic milk. To me this seems like a bit of a non-issue. I have a preference for one variety of a product, that's all. But it seems that to a lot of people on the internet I'm committing some sort of social evil. I'm giving money to an industry that's going to doom world food supplies or lead to the starvation of billions. I'll admit that my pre-disposition to buying organic foods is a product of my upbringing. I have no idea whether they're actually more healthy or not. But the sheer amount of hatred levelled towards the organic industry surprised me.

I also noticed another trend whilst reading the comments. I don't want to create a culture divide here, but every single person that was attacking organic farming was American. I live in the UK, and therefore in Europe, and I have yet to see any large anti-organic campaigns at all.

So the points of this thread are kind of multiple:

1. What do you think about organic farming?
2. Why do you think there is such a large amount of antagonism towards organic farming?
3. Why does there appear to be such a large culture divide between American and European perceptions of organic farming?

 

[Zontar]

As someone who grew up and still lives on a farm, I'll answer this:

What IS organic? Farming has always been about finding more efficient ways of getting more and better crops. Now we have a way to greatly increase crop yields again (it happened a few times in the 20th century) and there's a sudden backlash against it because people considerate "inorganic" because of some lab modifications. The idea that the "organic" foods are any more or less so then modified ones is an absurdity.

As for the American European divide, given how both are split pretty evenly on the matter (outside of the scientific and agricultural community, which are almost universally in agreement that modified foods are safe and no more dangerous then "organic" foods).

 

[Esotera]

Organic is pretty much defined as not using pesticides or GM crops. These things improve yields by a lot, so organic farming is an inefficient way of using farmland - it should only be used if you're growing stuff in your own garden.

In Europe the zeitgeist is that organic food is somehow nutritionally better than GM foods when there is no evidence to support this (although it might be a less intensive method of farming). A lot of this can be attributed to press coverage in the 90's on "Frankenfoods" which I think didn't happen in the US? The media have a lot to answer for as GM crops will be essential to sustain 9bn humans by 2050.

edit: i accidentally a word

 

[Queen Michael]

Organic is pretty much defined as the use of pesticides or GM crops.

That doesn't sound right. Don't you mean the lack of them?

 

[Eeeee0000]

I always assumed people hating on organic farming and how it will be bad for world food supplies are just justifying not buying organic... You know that organic meat and dairy is better for animals, but you can't or don't want to spend the money on it, so you argue that fact with saying that it's not as good as it seems.

(I, myself, hardly buy organic. I buy organic eggs when I buy eggs, and I buy milk from cows that get to be in the meadow at least about 200 days of the year (but it's not organic) and I don't eat meat at all, but I don't really care about my vegetables being organic.)

EDIT: I'm also not against GM crops, another reason why organic vegetables don't seem like a big deal to me. I study biology, I've created GM bacteria, I know what the stuff is like and how it works, it's not dangerous or cancer-inducing or whatever. It can really be part of a solution for food shortages. Pesticides are bad but not all of them, and GM can help in creating crops that need less pesticides.
One major positive point of organic: fertilizer. Too many fertilizer is used for standard crops and it really, really messes with nature, especially in such a small, heavily populated and heavily farmed country as where I live.

 

[skywolfblue]

There doesn't seem to be much evidence to support the idea that organic food is really that much better nutritionally.

A lot of companies seem to love re-branding their stuff "Organic" simply to mark higher prices for it.

So I'm a little bit skeptical of organic stuff. I have nothing wrong with eating naturally grown stuff from a farmer, but I am wary of the label in supermarkets.

I'd like to say I am pro GMO, but Monsanto is as Evil a company as they come. I wish more people were aware of just how evil they are.

 

[AWAR]

Organic is a marketing ploy more than anything else. If possible it's preferable to buy from local produce or farmer markets instead.

 

[Eamar]

I don't buy organic, because I am not paying more (a lot more) for something that has no proven health benefits and because, well, have fun feeding 9 billion people using only organic farming methods. See also GM - I am all for GM and actively avoid anything that actually makes a point of marketing itself as "non-GM," fuelling the scaremongering in the media.

The other thing a lot of people don't seem to realise is that "organic" does not mean "free from pesticides," it just means that the pesticides organic farmers use can't be synthetic. And as we (should) all know, whether something is natural or synthetic does not, in and of itself, have anything to do with its safety.

That's not to say that non-organic and GM can't be horribly, horribly abused of course (though I'd say the same is true for organic). That's where doing a bit of research into where the stuff you're buying comes from comes in, if possible.

I always assumed people hating on organic farming and how it will be bad for world food supplies are just justifying not buying organic... You know that organic meat and dairy is better for animals, but you can't or don't want to spend the money on it, so you argue that fact with saying that it's not as good as it seems.

How on earth is organic better or worse for animal welfare? Surely you mean free-range, and avoiding battery/intensive farming methods? I always buy free-range where I can, but that doesn't always go hand in hand with organic.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

I guess the moral argument behind the hatred of it is it does not optimise the creation of food to the best of our abilities. I am sceptical as to whether food that is surplus to requirements is utilised though. Let's say, for an example, lettuce that does not get sold in time before going off in ASDA - are we saying that this lettuce is immediately shipped off for free to people who are unable to afford food? Often food is reduced when nearing sell-by dates in shops, but I don't know of any activities that automatically ship this off to the needy, rather than wait until it goes off and then disposing of it. If this surplus food was properly utilised, then I would see this moral argument as more convincing - but for now, I am sceptical to say the least. However, I admit my lack of knowledge on the issue, so if someone can prove me wrong and show that the excess food is used and not wasted, this will make me happy.

For Americans it is perhaps seen as their 1% vs the 99% and organic is just another avenue of difference normally exhibited by those with too much money (the 1%). So it may be seen as exacerbating the separation between these two groups?

 

[likalaruku]

I used to avoid organics, then very slowly warmed up to them over many years, but it's still a complex issue.

I used to avoid organics after 3 of my coworkers on strict organic diets became frequently ill. They weren't friends or relatives of eachother, their organic diets were what they had in common. I have to think there's something in organic pesticides effecting them.

I however use organic homemade glycerin-free soap/lotion/shampoo/toothpaste/detergent because the chemicals, fragrances, & glycerin bother my skin & agitate my allergies.

I lightened up on organics when I took a liking to Trader Joe's & Marlines, who have significantly better tasting products. I discovered that they use organic ingredients only. I don't seem to be having the problems my coworkers had. Perhaps it was some kind of freak coincidence.

Last year was a particularly shitty year from crops. The organic farmers' stuff was less wilted than the stuff in the stores. Not much difference in taste, but this stuff comes in colors I've never seen. On one hand, there's the issue of the fact that the soil where I live is contaminated with trace amounts of lead & arsenic, while all the non organic veggies are imported from other states. On the other hand, I won't buy anything owned by any subsidiary of Monsanto.

 

[Flames66]

Personally, I'm all for organic farming (I'm also from the UK). I don't think all farms should be organic, but I think a substantial minority need to be. Organic food tastes better, or rather it has more taste because of the methods used as I understand it. It also gives people something they can feel mildly superior over when they talk about it, stimulating debate.

Organic is pretty much defined as not using pesticides or GM crops. These things improve yields by a lot, so organic farming is an inefficient way of using farmland - it should only be used if you're growing stuff in your own garden.

I disagree. There is a demand for it so people will supply it.

In Europe the zeitgeist is that organic food is somehow nutritionally better than GM foods when there is no evidence to support this (although it might be a less intensive method of farming). A lot of this can be attributed to press coverage in the 90's on "Frankenfoods" which I think didn't happen in the US? The media have a lot to answer for as GM crops will be essential to sustain 9bn humans by 2050.

I don't think that shows a need for more food. I think that shows a need to drastically curb the production of people to prevent massive overcrowding, famine and ecosystem destruction.

 

[Roofstone]

If we had only Organic farming, we'd be able to feed about 2 billion of the people we have on earth, which all in all, isn't a lot.

I am not opposed to having it, but organic farming has a niche place, nothing more. We need non organic stuff. It is that simple really for me, pragmatism.

 

[Hiramas]

Well, organic is one of those things that started well intentioned and then got captured by marketing people. Sadly.

Organic farming means that certain criteria are upheld, for example low amounts of pesticides or fertilizers. Also, GM-plants are generally not allowed.
When you talk about organic farming for animals, usually you have limits on food additions, antibiotics and, of course, no genetic manipulation.
The animals often live under certain conditions, free range or more natural pastures.
Often organic farmers also use older branches of a species that maybe has a lower output, but more flavor, less problems with fungi or other illnesses. (Modern chicken-breeds cannot get up after a few months because their meat grows faster than their bones and muscles. Modern breeds are often more vulnerable to disease because of genetic uniformity)
All that naturally raises the price of the food.
What is true is that organic foods have no nutritional advantage over conventional food. What they have are lower pesticide levels, fewer antibiotics in the meat and the animals have a better live.

So far the theory. As i said, sadly the "organic" term has been coopted by the food industry.
If you want to be sure, buy directly from the farmer or a farmers marked. Don't trust the supermarket-labels!
Often that stuff is imported from China or wherever, and even if they would obey the organic-farming-rules, transporting something thousands of kilometers is not really organic imho.


My bit to the GM debate are two points:
When we cross two breeds of a plant, in theory its genetic manipulation. Thats right.
But now we put bacterial genes into plants to make them resistant to pesticides! That has nothing to do with natural cross-breeding! We have no idea what that may do to the environment in the long run!

Also, the company who makes the pesticide-resistant plant also makes the pesticide. And they have a copyright! on the plant!
There are cases of farmers who got sued because the wind blew over some seeds to their fields!
Also most of these breeds are infertile. That means none of the harvest can be used to resow the fields! Every year you have to pay the company for the seeds!
So patents on genes and the corporate power of modern agricultural giants like monsanto, who destroy whole ecosystems just to make more profit, thats the real danger with GM-Foods!

 

[Zontar]

So you're saying that poison (which is all pesticides really are)you throw on your field isn't gonna kill me or the environment?

Well... are you dead yet?
Are WE dead yet?

Is the environment dead yet?

Ask that question to the growing number of people that get cancer.

Can't believe some of these people.

Actually rates are falling. In fact, rates of pretty much everything that kills us is falling.

 

[Blue_vision]

I don't really hate organic farming, and I haven't really experienced anybody that hates it either. I've experienced far more vitriol towards conventional farming, with claims it will destroy the world/is poisoning humans/is a slander to life. I am very much against the industry, however, just because the vast majority of their marketing goes towards the image that organic food is better for you than conventional food. The amount of people who believe that GM food is bad for you, despite absolutely no scientific evidence, is staggering.

In a similar way, some environmental aspects of organic farming are good (like using less fertilizer). But then it's again limiting, because there is almost certainly a middle ground between organic and conventional farming, which uses fertilizers when needed, soil management techniques to prevent runoff and maximize fertilizer impact, uses targeted pesticides when needed, etc. Organic farming paints in far too big strokes. If we want to reform the way the agriculture industry interacts with the environment, we need to do it in a smart way; not by having companies tell people "fertilizer and pesticides are bad!" and putting an end to 60 years of scientific advances just like that.

Also, as for anti-organic arguments that organic farming can't sustain the planet, that's not quite true. Using state of the art organic farming techniques, organic farms can achieve productivity comparable to mechanized farms. Conventional agriculture already has extremely marginal returns; we're hitting a barrier in the US and Europe in what conventional agriculture can do. The vast majority of increased food production will have to come from developing nations in Latin America, Africa, India, and Eastern Europe. These places can easily support 5x or more increases in yields simply via the use of better management techniques. In general, the thing we need most is better management. Figure out where we actually want farmland to prevent ecosystem fragmentation and destruction, then go from there to figure out what level of agricultural activity we need and how we can achieve that.

I am heavily against the use of pesticides though. So you're saying that poison (which is all pesticides really are)you throw on your field isn't gonna kill me or the environment?

No, they're not. I know it's weird, but fertilizers are actually more destructive towards the environment and human health than pesticides are. Not to mention that nothing in organic farming prevents the use of pesticides; it only disallows synthetic pesticides. There's tonnes of "natural" pesticides which are just as toxic (if not more toxic) that organic farmers use all the time.

Ask that question to the growing number of people that get cancer.

Can't believe some of these people.

Yeah, it's definitely not the thousands of other compounds that people interact with on a daily basis which are actually scientifically shown to give people cancer. Pesticides aren't one of them.

 

[UBERfionn]

Organic is pretty much defined as not using pesticides or GM crops.

They can use pesticides but not ones made in a lab. So they end up using potentially more dangerous things on the crops.

 

[Saltyk]

Well, using "Organic farming" couldn't feed the entire world's population. At all. It could at best feed a fraction. I can't remember the actual number of people that it could feed, but it's very small. So, look around at all the people you know and decide who you would like to starve to death.

Penn and Teller did an episode on Bull Shit debunking the idea that Organic farming was better for you in any way. Even debunked the idea that Organic food tastes better.

Also, Organic farmers tend to use far worse and more dangerous pesticides than their counterparts.

The idea that food is inorganic is rather dumb, anyway. Farmers have been cross breeding plants for generations to maximize their efficiency in growing their crops. The idea that there is some controversy now is just ridiculous.

 

[UBERfionn]

Mortality rates are, but not incidence rates, those are still rising and have been for a long while.
And the way they calculate mortality usually is up to 1-5 years after treatment, eventhough cancer is infamous for coming back after long periods, so those numbers are flawed.

It's true that it's flawed but so is the instance rate as it could be argued that the same percent of people have cancer but more are being diagnosed.

 

[suitepee7]

-snip-

well, this pretty much sums up my feelings on organic food...

Spoiler

personally i don't care enough about it, i don't hate it, but won't target it. price is still my biggest deciding factor when i buy my food. for some reason organic beef mince is considerably cheaper at my local supermarket, so i buy it rather than non-organic

 

[Yopaz]

I always assumed people hating on organic farming and how it will be bad for world food supplies are just justifying not buying organic... You know that organic meat and dairy is better for animals, but you can't or don't want to spend the money on it, so you argue that fact with saying that it's not as good as it seems.

Actually the hatred is more a concern about how it's inefficient in terms of yields and how organic farming makes it impossible to feed the entire world because we won't have enough produce.

It's actually quite silly though since at this point starvation is more about economy than lack of food. We produce too much, stores throw out perfectly fine food because of the expiry dates, we (generalizing, not all of us do this I don't) buy more than we can consume and throw out things that may or may not have gone bad (again expiry dates).

OT: Personally I don't have a problem with organic farming, but I don't buy organic products because I am a poor bastard. I can't afford a healthy meal every day and I have to go with cheap solutions 3 times a week or more to survive. If my healthy meals were organic I would probably need to eat healthy once or twice a week which means an organic lifestyle would be bad for my health.

Some people prefer to eat organic because they think it tastes better, some because they think it's healthier. So far there's no proven difference in nutrients so that can be regarded as bullshit, but I'm not sure how much we know about the effects of pesticides since trace amounts that may be found may sometimes cause effects over time despite concentrations being so low it's hard to find it at all. Still, there's a lot of marketing behind this and I am not sure how much I trust it. I would need to read up on this, but I don't have the time to look deeply enough to find something worth referencing.

To conclude, I don't feel any antagonism towards organic farming nor do I feel any enthusiasm towards it. I think it's good that we have the option and I think we should support it as long as there's no shortage of food that isn't rooted in the economy.

2: The antagonism issue was kinda explained in my response to the quote above, but people are sooo altruistic that they care about all the 9 billion people we will have on this planet in 35 years, not altruistic enough to share some of the excess resources some of us have, but enough to lash out against anyone who supports organic farms on the internet.

3: Why is is worse in America than in Europe? I can't vouch for all of this being correct (poor research), but speaking as a European I have these observations. American corporations are really aggressive about anyone stepping on their turf and badmouth their products. Tobacco leading to cancer was a known risk in large parts of the world, but in USA the danger was played down until the mid 90s when they tobacco industry took some heavy blows due to several successful lawsuits. It was then revealed they had information of this spanning back decades. Global warming is another hot issue with researchers supporting the phenomenon receiving death threats if they wouldn't moderate or withdraw their comments on it. Companies have also spent a lot of resources to prevent free healthcare because it cuts into their profits. Just the same way the agriculture industry makes sure we all have the statistics of how many people we have to kill in order to stay sustainable with organic farming. In Europe companies don't have that much power and ill health effects are often revealed and even overstated. This leads to a different view on these things.

It's also quite possible that the observations you made on Europeans and Americans were caused by the time the post went up since Europeans live in a different time zone and may have been asleep or at work in that time lapse. I think you could make a similar observation if you were to look at the first few posts on a hot topic Critical Miss strip since that comes around late work/workf inished/pre-dinner time, while it comes out in the morning in USA.

I have to think there's something in organic pesticides effecting them.

Organic farming is defined as not using any pesticides so pesticides is not the reason they got sick. It may be some kind of micro organism that pesticide kills or something like that or merely a coincidence. It may be that those people went on an organic diet because they frequently felt ill and both decided to switch to a strict organic diet because someone told them that might help.



I do apologize for making a large wall of text here and I might be wrong in several things here so do not take these as more than my personal musings on the subject.