Out of Sight Out of Mind (Mass Effect 2)

[AcacianLeaves]

We don't visit Asari space in Mass Effect 1.
We don't visit the Terminus Systems in Mass Effect 1.
Cerberus was involved in pretty much every side mission in Mass Effect 1.

The End.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

I agree with both of you. The novel thing is ridiculous. I'm afraid to even touch a copy. I almost agree with you completely actually Starke. The quality in ME2's writing is nowhere near as good as ME1, which in general was a little on the shaky side. Bioware ARE full of themselves. All the fans need to stop ass kissing and tell them like it is. I mean don't get me wrong I like the game but as I examine ME2 there is a considerable amount of problems with the writing and general logic.

Spoiler: Mass Effect 2 major plot point Spoiler

Like Shepard should have blown off the Collector's main gun and engines when he went aboard the derelict Collector ship. Even if TIM says the ship is offline Shepard shouldn't risk trusting him 100%. Of course that would of killed a good chunk of game play and exposition. Sort of.

Bioware needs to get their heads out of their asses and pick the shit out of their noses because if ME3 is anything like ME2 there will be disappointment. (consider that I'm very tired while typing this so sorry for the errors or nonsensical bullshit.)

The nonsensical bullshit quota in your post is far lower than anyone else's in this thread, myself included. You're saying the same things I've been saying for most of a year now, and it's creeping me out. As a complete non-sequitor, when you said "TIM" for a second all I could think of was the character from Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail, (which would make the illusive man far more amusing.)

The only thing I can really add is, if ME3 follows in step with 2, there will be disappointment among people like us. The masses will continue to consume it mindlessly and pray at it's alter. Honestly I predicted that based on DAO, ME2's writing would be bad enough that people would rebel. ME2's writing is worse than I expected, and they're still getting praised to hell and back.

It's sad, I'm sitting here remembering Black Isle fondly. And realizing just how fucked up the western RPG market is when Bioware is releasing crap like this, and most of the people playing it have never even heard of games like Deus Ex or Planescape. (And wouldn't have heard of Fallout if not for Bethesda.)

Hey. I did have a PC in the days of the 90's. Plus I wasn't even old to understand basic writing concepts. (maybe some) So Fallout 3 introduced me to the franchise and I'd really like to play the original and it's predecessor. Looks like a real RPG.(even though I enjoy 3 lol)I'm happy the old devs are tackling New Vegas.

BUT, regarding Bioware, I think they really need to hire more skilled writers because The jump of quality from Mass Effect to DA:O is fucking staggering. I bet a guy like you could out write half their staff. They need to stop focusing so heavily on game, even though it's important, and really improve the writing. Hell they could keep the same exact combat from ME2 with a few bells and whistles, give back the strong leveling system (Seriously), expand the inventory a little but not as much as ME1, improve the writing a lot and boom. Great game.They'll have a good game. Probably.

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

 

[Always_Remain]

I agree with both of you. The novel thing is ridiculous. I'm afraid to even touch a copy. I almost agree with you completely actually Starke. The quality in ME2's writing is nowhere near as good as ME1, which in general was a little on the shaky side. Bioware ARE full of themselves. All the fans need to stop ass kissing and tell them like it is. I mean don't get me wrong I like the game but as I examine ME2 there is a considerable amount of problems with the writing and general logic.

Spoiler: Mass Effect 2 major plot point Spoiler

Like Shepard should have blown off the Collector's main gun and engines when he went aboard the derelict Collector ship. Even if TIM says the ship is offline Shepard shouldn't risk trusting him 100%. Of course that would of killed a good chunk of game play and exposition. Sort of.

Bioware needs to get their heads out of their asses and pick the shit out of their noses because if ME3 is anything like ME2 there will be disappointment. (consider that I'm very tired while typing this so sorry for the errors or nonsensical bullshit.)

The nonsensical bullshit quota in your post is far lower than anyone else's in this thread, myself included. You're saying the same things I've been saying for most of a year now, and it's creeping me out. As a complete non-sequitor, when you said "TIM" for a second all I could think of was the character from Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail, (which would make the illusive man far more amusing.)

The only thing I can really add is, if ME3 follows in step with 2, there will be disappointment among people like us. The masses will continue to consume it mindlessly and pray at it's alter. Honestly I predicted that based on DAO, ME2's writing would be bad enough that people would rebel. ME2's writing is worse than I expected, and they're still getting praised to hell and back.

It's sad, I'm sitting here remembering Black Isle fondly. And realizing just how fucked up the western RPG market is when Bioware is releasing crap like this, and most of the people playing it have never even heard of games like Deus Ex or Planescape. (And wouldn't have heard of Fallout if not for Bethesda.)

Hey. I did have a PC in the days of the 90's. Plus I wasn't even old to understand basic writing concepts. (maybe some) So Fallout 3 introduced me to the franchise and I'd really like to play the original and it's predecessor. Looks like a real RPG.(even though I enjoy 3 lol)I'm happy the old devs are tackling New Vegas.

BUT, regarding Bioware, I think they really need to hire more skilled writers because The jump of quality from Mass Effect to DA:O is fucking staggering. I bet a guy like you could out write half their staff. They need to stop focusing so heavily on game, even though it's important, and really improve the writing. Hell they could keep the same exact combat from ME2 with a few bells and whistles, give back the strong leveling system (Seriously), expand the inventory a little but not as much as ME1, improve the writing a lot and boom. Great game.They'll have a good game. Probably.

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

 

[Starke]

Hey. I did have a PC in the days of the 90's. Plus I wasn't even old to understand basic writing concepts. (maybe some) So Fallout 3 introduced me to the franchise and I'd really like to play the original and it's predecessor. Looks like a real RPG.(even though I enjoy 3 lol)I'm happy the old devs are tackling New Vegas.

BUT, regarding Bioware, I think they really need to hire more skilled writers because The jump of quality from Mass Effect to DA:O is fucking staggering. I bet a guy like you could out write half their staff. They need to stop focusing so heavily on game, even though it's important, and really improve the writing. Hell they could keep the same exact combat from ME2 with a few bells and whistles, give back the strong leveling system (Seriously), expand the inventory a little but not as much as ME1, improve the writing a lot and boom. Great game.They'll have a good game. Probably.

Sorry, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at you. I was actually thinking about someone we've got on IRC who's 15, and goes by FalloutForever. For that matter though, there really isn't much wrong with Fallout 3's writing except a couple manditory plot points (especially the main game's ending), and it is a really fun old-schoolish shooter. But, Fallout 3 more or less understands what it's trying to be. A really fun shooter with a little bit of depth, and a pitch black sense of humor. It doesn't pull all of these off perfectly, but it also doesn't try to be some great commentary on the nature of humanity the way the Bioware devs intend ME2 to be (this is comming from the devs comparing themselves to fucking ASAMOV in their pre-launch videos.)

The other piece that supports that ME2 is off reservation, is the collectors. Absolutly no mentione of them whatsoever in 1. They're a fresh addition that bioware didn't plan for in the first game. This could have been done with litterally two lines of dialog, but they hadn't thought them up, because they weren't part of the plan. Certainly not the reveal about them. That was all Bioware BSing out their ass.

Have you ever heard of Saint George? Yes, this is actually going somewhere.

Okay, I'll bite. Yes, I have. Though, mostly because of Mignola's Hellboy comics, and my GF's fondness for the story. He may have been mentioned in Fables, I'm not sure.

We don't visit Asari space in Mass Effect 1 or 2.
We don't visit the Terminus Systems in Mass Effect 1.
Cerberus was involved in pretty much every about a fifth of the side missions in Mass Effect 1.

The End.

Fixed that for ya.

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

Though, in other news, that reminded me of an old gem I'm about to upload as my new avatar.

 

[Meshakhad_v1legacy]

Cerberus is a complicated organization. They believe that the ends justify the means. All of their operations are aimed at ensuring human supremacy. Now throw in the cell organization, and you'll get a wide spectrum, from idealists like Jacob and Kelly to the monsters who killed Admiral Kohoku.

 

[Boxmeister]

Keep in mind that it's not because we don't know about it that Shepard doesn't know about it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this,, but if you think about it, you learn new things all the time, but still maintain the knowledge of the old, for example: Asari Justicars and the Genophage. Plus it's extremely important to introduce new concepts for the universe, it's not like we could learn everything in one play through. Also, the way that the amalgamated the Protheans and the Collectors was awesome, making the Reapers look even more sadistic. I expect that there will be just as many new things to learn in the third ME game, and personally, I can't wait for it. I love the story lines that Bioware crank out

 

[Tarkand]

I agree wholeheartedly with this,, but if you think about it, you learn new things all the time, but still maintain the knowledge of the old, for example: Asari Justicars and the Genophage. Plus it's extremely important to introduce new concepts for the universe, it's not like we could learn everything in one play through. Also, the way that the amalgamated the Protheans and the Collectors was awesome, making the Reapers look even more sadistic. I expect that there will be just as many new things to learn in the third ME game, and personally, I can't wait for it. I love the story lines that Bioware crank out

Well, to be honest, I was refering to more 'casual' stuff... for example, the fact that Omega is a huge trading center/city in the Terminus system or that the Terminus System is more or less ran by 3 powerful mercenary cartel. This is stuff Shepard probably knew, but since it didn't matter in ME1, it simply didn't come up.

 

[Starke]

Keep in mind that it's not because we don't know about it that Shepard doesn't know about it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this,, but if you think about it, you learn new things all the time, but still maintain the knowledge of the old, for example: Asari Justicars and the Genophage. Plus it's extremely important to introduce new concepts for the universe, it's not like we could learn everything in one play through. Also, the way that the amalgamated the Protheans and the Collectors was awesome, making the Reapers look even more sadistic. I expect that there will be just as many new things to learn in the third ME game, and personally, I can't wait for it. I love the story lines that Bioware crank out

Well, to be honest, I was refering to more 'casual' stuff... for example, the fact that Omega is a huge trading center/city in the Terminus system or that the Terminus System is more or less ran by 3 powerful mercenary cartel. This is stuff Shepard probably knew, but since it didn't matter in ME1, it simply didn't come up.

In fact you can prove Shepard has knowledge that hasn't been shared with the player. On numerous occations in both games going all the way back to the first sequence on the Normandy in 1, before even reaching Eden Prime, you can talk about the protheans because Shepard already knows this. There's a similar branch in 2 where Shepard can plead ignorance and get a line of exposition regarding the collectors, or say something witty about the collectors and then get the exact same line of exposition...

To an extent you're both missing the point though. The issue isn't that because Shepard (apparently) knows about these things, and the player doesn't that it's okay. What it IS is sloppy writing. If there's foreshadowing, in the way a pre-planned trillogy should have, then these revelations should click with existing knowledge of the setting somehow. There's a lot of leway in how you do this, but, if you're going to introduce a critically important character like TIM, or a new villian like the collectors, then you really need to have some hint that they exist. (And really the collectors introduce a horde of new plotholes into both games, and the edited beacon vision in 2 makes things even more incomprehensable.)

The way you can tell TIM isn't an organic component of the setting, and was manually grafted into it is by looking at Cerberus comms in the first and then in the second game. In the first game, when working your way through Cerberus facilities there is absolutly no mention of him, or anyone higher up in the organization. The only information the player can get is quest threads to other Cerberus related missions. In 2, we tear through two Cerberus Facilities (durring the prolog and durring Jack's loyalty mission) where TIM is refered to in the comms you come across.

Tankard, you are right about Omega and the mercenary bands being irrelevant in 1. In fact you get a hint at how the Terminus Systems are run, and the second game does sync up with this (in the abandoned probe mission).

 

[Starke]

Cerberus is a complicated organization. They believe that the ends justify the means. All of their operations are aimed at ensuring human supremacy. Now throw in the cell organization, and you'll get a wide spectrum, from idealists like Jacob and Kelly to the monsters who killed Admiral Kohoku.

There is a problem with this though. An organization which draws in all types to achieve an extreme agenda and doesn't hold it's membership accountable for their actions isn't really an organization except in name.

Combine that information with the fact that for any subsidiary organization[footnote]Before ME1, Cerberus was a covert ops faction within the Systems Aliance Military[/footnote] going rogue will result in security leaks, breakdowns in the chain of command, defections, and double agents. And the entire premise for Cerberus starts to get more than a little far fetched.

 

[GruntOwner]

Have you ever heard of Saint George? Yes, this is actually going somewhere.

Okay, I'll bite. Yes, I have. Though, mostly because of Mignola's Hellboy comics, and my GF's fondness for the story. He may have been mentioned in Fables, I'm not sure.

Well darn, I was really hoping that you'd say no. However, I'm sure that you understand how there are many people who have never heard of him outside of those nations who use him as a patron saint. The collectors are kinda like that, inside the Terminus systems and certain Alliance intel groups, they're rather famous but nobody else in the galaxy had heard of them since they're only a legend, and therefore not the sort of thing passed round the entire galaxy. Very few people in Britain are familiar with the entirety of the USA's history, so add to that the history being fictional and it's understandable that the stories don't spread, because I'm as yet to use St George in normal conversation.

Edit: Sorta fixed the quotes... I hope.

 

[Starke]

Have you ever heard of Saint George? Yes, this is actually going somewhere.

Okay, I'll bite. Yes, I have. Though, mostly because of Mignola's Hellboy comics, and my GF's fondness for the story. He may have been mentioned in Fables, I'm not sure.

Well darn, I was really hoping that you'd say no. However, I'm sure that you understand how there are many people who have never heard of him outside of those nations who use him as a patron saint. The collectors are kinda like that, inside the Terminus systems and certain Alliance intel groups, they're rather famous but nobody else in the galaxy had heard of them since they're only a legend, and therefore not the sort of thing passed round the entire galaxy. Very few people in Britain are familiar with the entirety of the USA's history, so add to that the history being fictional and it's understandable that the stories don't spread, because I'm as yet to use St George in normal conversation.

Edit: Sorta fixed the quotes... I hope.

Yeah... the problem is, Shepard obviously does know who the collectors are (technically this is a player initiated dialog choice), as does Anderson, most of the party members you pick up (Thane, Mordrin, Jacob, and Miranda all know about the collectors in explicit detail when you meet them), and then the Mechanic on Horizon. Who isn't a military officer, has no special access to information. What we know is he thought they were a rumor to keep colonists in Alliance space. What this means is: at least basic familarity the existance of the collectors is common knowledge. But, as Miranda says, they're so rare most people don't believe they actually exist.

Again, this is a debate about how realistic the setting is. As a narrative element, the collectors are a disaster. The lack of foreshadowing, and poor implementation of them results in them creating gigantic plot holes and leave the second game (of the trillogy) more or less directionless.

In other words, they make Mass Effect 2 filler. Not part 2 of a trillogy, but a filler episode.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

You have yet to make any argument against the quality of writing in ME2. You're discussing plot holes and whether or not the two plots are cohesive when viewed together.

You're patting each others backs and praising one another for being so much smarter than the other idiots who enjoyed ME2's writing. I don't necessarily disagree with you about cohesiveness, I just think you both have brought the conversation to a screaming halt through your own self congratulation.

In other words, they make Mass Effect 2 filler. Not part 2 of a trillogy, but a filler episode.

Your entire reasoning for this is that the Collectors are not foreshadowed in Mass Effect 1. However ME1 constantly makes references to the Terminus Systems, and how its outside of Citadel space and therefore completely off limits for almost any kind of investigation. People in Citadel space (IE: ME1) know almost nothing about what goes on in the Terminus systems. The Illusive Man, the Collectors, the mercenary groups, essentially every element in ME2 are exclusive to the Terminus systems.

Is ME2 disconnected from ME1? Of course. But this isn't a book, a movie, or a television series. This is a video game trilogy, that has to work in new gameplay elements like a variety of enemies into their story. It's not the writing that is bad, as you and DemonXL33tdude are claiming, it's the problem of writing for a video game trilogy. If you have too much cohesion in the story, it just becomes three games that are carbon copies of one another. The Halo series is a good example of this. The Collectors may have come out of left field, but they make sense enough to fit into the context of the story, and still create a great game with interesting enemies. It's not as if they have to make huge retcons to ME1 in order to fit these things into the world, they just have to say, as many have said in this thread, "you did not go to the Terminus systems, therefore you did not know the details of the races and groups that operated exclusively there".

Not to mention that we have ZERO knowledge of what will take place in ME3, so to argue that the writing is bad because the stories don't match up enough or ME2 is 'just filler' when the series isn't even complete is just, to put it frankly, trolling.

 

[Baconmonster723]

Sorry to all of you hating on Bioware, but...... I get a strong feeling you are just as full of shit as you believe they are. From what I can tell your issues with the story are not necesarily a mistake on the writers part so much as laziness on yours. I have only played Mass Effect 1 + 2, I have never read any of the novels or comics, never played anything outside of those two games. The story makes total sense, flows fine, and is well written. You are entitled to your opinion, however, I believe you think the writers should spoon feed you every little detail. I find that pathetic and juvenille, a good novel has a story that causes people to talk about the possibilities of meaning of not only the overall story but individual parts of the story as well. I am by no means comparing Bioware to some amazing novelist who should be cherished for all time, but I do believe that the story is much like any good novel you read. Sorry but I just get the feeling you have never ever been in any sort of advanced literature class. Every good story makes people ask the question why. Mass Effect is no exception. However, it seems to me everytime you ask the question why, you simply blame it on the writers being lazy instead of looking for an answer. I find this incredibly disappointing and I have zero respect for it. If you were providing anything other than ZOMG BIOWARE IS FULL OF BS hate and actually making relevant points I wouldn't be saying these things. Hit me with your questions and try to prove me wrong. You very well may just hate the storyline, which I can accept. But at least back up your words.

Again, this is a debate about how realistic the setting is. As a narrative element, the collectors are a disaster. The lack of foreshadowing, and poor implementation of them results in them creating gigantic plot holes and leave the second game (of the trillogy) more or less directionless.

In other words, they make Mass Effect 2 filler. Not part 2 of a trillogy, but a filler episode.

Not really, the Collectors make perfect sense in the grand scheme, you don't need foreshadowing, why do they need to have to be in the first game to end up being a relevant threat, they are a Reaper contingency plan. They are a PLAN B to the Reaper PLAN A, sorry but I don't see how your argument about them being a plot hole is relevant in the least. They are a suprise villian. Why would they foreshadow a villian simply to please you. You act like this is the first time anyone has ever implemented a villian into a story without letting you know who it is. In fact that is the way this would actually occur in the real world. Most people don't believe the Collectors exist, therefore, they are not considered a relevant threat. Making their suprise attack on the Normandy all the more important it makes there presence known. Sure it was your first true exposure to the Collectors in the series, but up to this point nobody knew anything about the Collectors other than they could exist somewhere beyond the Omega 4 relay and would occasionally trade tech.

Just because you don't like the way they implemented them into the story doesn't make it a plot hole. I'm sorry but again, you fail to bring up relevant points to support your stance. Give me an instance where it creates a plot hole, give me an instance where it is poorly implemented, better yet show how it could have been implemented better before you blindly throw criticism around.

As for your "well you knew about them and so did your crew". Of course an organization like Cerberus knows about them, Thane would make sense as well, seeing as he was an assassin he probably took contracts from Collectors or intermediaries and therefore he would have much more knowledge of Collectors than the average individual. Samara is at least familiar with what the Collectors are but displays only basic knowledge of the Collectors as you would assume any being who has lived for 1000 years would, as do Garrus, Tali, and Jack all of which are easily explainable. Garrus is a Merc leader in the Terminus Systems for the two years you are gone, therefore would have had some exposure to the Collectors through first hand accounts or stories from individuals he met. Tali is a highly respected member of the Migrant Fleet, who would know about the Collectors in some way shape or form, therefore, she would know of them. And Jack, Jack is perhaps the hardest to link, but she did work as a pirate/merc in the Terminus Systems, again, probably being exposed to the Collectors in some way, shape, or form through that line of work. Grunt was made with Collector Tech therefore would have some knowledge of them from Okeer. Jacob and Miranda are Cerberus Operatives therefore they would know a lot about the Collectors. And finally Mordin, oh sweet Mordin. He obviously knows the most about the Collectors because he worked in SALARIAN INTELLIGENCE, quite possibly the best intelligence gathering agency in the Galaxy, and even he has fairly limited knowledge of the situation. Not to mention TWO YEARS passed since you were attacked, and that attack clearly shows that Shepard had no idea that the Collectors were a threat to him or anyone else. Fact of the matter is the Collectors are like Boogeymen, everyone has heard of them but nobody talks about them seriously and nobody knows exactly what they do.

 

[Always_Remain]

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

You have yet to make any argument against the quality of writing in ME2. You're discussing plot holes and whether or not the two plots are cohesive when viewed together.

You're patting each others backs and praising one another for being so much smarter than the other idiots who enjoyed ME2's writing. I don't necessarily disagree with you about cohesiveness, I just think you both have brought the conversation to a screaming halt through your own self congratulation.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I was actually being quite dick-ish. I probably wasn't at full intelligence levels when writing that. I failed to realize that ME2 has the disadvantage of being the "middle child" of the franchise so there wasn't a whole lot they could do with it. Frankly, I'm a bit happy with what they produced cuz it established the characters for ME3 and was a actually a pretty good bridge for the story.

Edit: Oh and please don't call me leet dude. I didn't want to use Demon_Dave xcuz I thought it looked dumb and I just did the uppercase thing.... cuz I guess I was being stupid and though it looked cool?

 

[Always_Remain]

Hey. I did have a PC in the days of the 90's. Plus I wasn't even old to understand basic writing concepts. (maybe some) So Fallout 3 introduced me to the franchise and I'd really like to play the original and it's predecessor. Looks like a real RPG.(even though I enjoy 3 lol)I'm happy the old devs are tackling New Vegas.

BUT, regarding Bioware, I think they really need to hire more skilled writers because The jump of quality from Mass Effect to DA:O is fucking staggering. I bet a guy like you could out write half their staff. They need to stop focusing so heavily on game, even though it's important, and really improve the writing. Hell they could keep the same exact combat from ME2 with a few bells and whistles, give back the strong leveling system (Seriously), expand the inventory a little but not as much as ME1, improve the writing a lot and boom. Great game.They'll have a good game. Probably.

Sorry, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at you. I was actually thinking about someone we've got on IRC who's 15, and goes by FalloutForever. For that matter though, there really isn't much wrong with Fallout 3's writing except a couple manditory plot points (especially the main game's ending), and it is a really fun old-schoolish shooter. But, Fallout 3 more or less understands what it's trying to be. A really fun shooter with a little bit of depth, and a pitch black sense of humor. It doesn't pull all of these off perfectly, but it also doesn't try to be some great commentary on the nature of humanity the way the Bioware devs intend ME2 to be (this is comming from the devs comparing themselves to fucking ASAMOV in their pre-launch videos.)

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

Though, in other news, that reminded me of an old gem I'm about to upload as my new avatar.

I agree with you on FO3 but regarding AcacianLeaves he does have good points and ME2 was kinda at a rock and a hard place writing wise. They gotta save all the razzle ma dazz for ME3. Also, great avatar.

 

[Tarkand]

The way you can tell TIM isn't an organic component of the setting, and was manually grafted into it is by looking at Cerberus comms in the first and then in the second game. In the first game, when working your way through Cerberus facilities there is absolutly no mention of him, or anyone higher up in the organization. The only information the player can get is quest threads to other Cerberus related missions. In 2, we tear through two Cerberus Facilities (durring the prolog and durring Jack's loyalty mission) where TIM is refered to in the comms you come across.

So?

To be honest, Cerberus is a very tiny part of ME1. It is totally possible the beat the game without ever encountering any of them... many sidequests have nothing to do with Cerberus and you don't even need to do 1 single sidequests.

Discovering who TIM is really had no place in the ME1 experience. We get to see that those guys are fucked up and eeeeeeeeeeeevil, and that's what really matters. That's your foreshadowing. When you finally meet TIM, you get to see that Cerberus isn't entirely made of comic book villains...

 

[Starke]

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

You have yet to make any argument against the quality of writing in ME2. You're discussing plot holes and whether or not the two plots are cohesive when viewed together.

You're patting each others backs and praising one another for being so much smarter than the other idiots who enjoyed ME2's writing. I don't necessarily disagree with you about cohesiveness, I just think you both have brought the conversation to a screaming halt through your own self congratulation.

No, this is definitely opinion. The difference is we're backing our opinions up with evidence. In light of this, yours is wrong.

In other words, they make Mass Effect 2 filler. Not part 2 of a trilogy, but a filler episode.

Your entire reasoning for this is that the Collectors are not foreshadowed in Mass Effect 1. However ME1 constantly makes references to the Terminus Systems, and how its outside of Citadel space and therefore completely off limits for almost any kind of investigation. People in Citadel space (IE: ME1) know almost nothing about what goes on in the Terminus systems. The Illusive Man, the Collectors, the mercenary groups, essentially every element in ME2 are exclusive to the Terminus systems.

Again, your skill at fouling up details from the original game is staggering. TIM is not exclusive to the Terminus systems. And again, it's not that he isn't mentioned in ME1, it's that he DOES NOT EXIST in it, even though Cerberus does.

Is ME2 disconnected from ME1? Of course. But this isn't a book, a movie, or a television series. This is a video game trilogy, that has to work in new game play elements like a variety of enemies into their story. It's not the writing that is bad, as you and DemonXL33tdude are claiming, it's the problem of writing for a video game trilogy. If you have too much cohesion in the story, it just becomes three games that are carbon copies of one another. The Halo series is a good example of this. The Collectors may have come out of left field, but they make sense enough to fit into the context of the story, and still create a great game with interesting enemies. It's not as if they have to make huge retcons to ME1 in order to fit these things into the world, they just have to say, as many have said in this thread, "you did not go to the Terminus systems, therefore you did not know the details of the races and groups that operated exclusively there".

What you're arguing here is that inherently video game writing cannot be good, therefore it's not worth complaining about it's quality, or analyzing it. I'm sorry, I reject your thesis. I've played a number of games (though, none of them from bioware), that had writing that was on par or superior to most of the shit on TV.

Not to mention that we have ZERO knowledge of what will take place in ME3, so to argue that the writing is bad because the stories don't match up enough or ME2 is 'just filler' when the series isn't even complete is just, to put it frankly, trolling.

You're right, I have no knowledge about what's in ME3. What I can tell you is the content of ME2 isn't the second part of a narrative trilogy. It's a random off kilter little story that serves no long term purpose. At best it gives you the tools to prove to the council that the reapers are real, which means the entire game is effectively a goddamn side quest.

Second, there's this word "trilogy", I do not think it means what you think it does. A trilogy is three separate interconnected pieces of a larger story. The Two Towers isn't about how Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir headed off north to stop a goblin invasion in Arnor, no, it stays more or less on topic between Felloships and Return of the King. There's a pretty good argument to be made that Two Towers is filler, but it's more relevant to the narrative than ME2 is.

You both need a crowbar in order to remove your heads from your asses.

Sorry that IN MY OPINION AND APPARENTLY STARKE'S OPINION Mass Effect 2's writing was not as good as it could have been. If you think otherwise, that's just dandy.

Though, in other news, that reminded me of an old gem I'm about to upload as my new avatar.

I agree with you on FO3 but regarding AcacianLeaves he does have good points and ME2 was kinda at a rock and a hard place writing wise. They gotta save all the razzle ma dazz for ME3. Also, great avatar.[/quote]His argument boils down to writing in video games is inferior to that of other media. It's not what it looks like at first glance, but ultimately, that's where he's at. His failure to understand the word "trilogy" is also slightly staggering and baffling.

The way you can tell TIM isn't an organic component of the setting, and was manually grafted into it is by looking at Cerberus comms in the first and then in the second game. In the first game, when working your way through Cerberus facilities there is absolutely no mention of him, or anyone higher up in the organization. The only information the player can get is quest threads to other Cerberus related missions. In 2, we tear through two Cerberus Facilities (during the prologue and during Jack's loyalty mission) where TIM is referred to in the comms you come across.

So?

To be honest, Cerberus is a very tiny part of ME1. It is totally possible the beat the game without ever encountering any of them... many side quests have nothing to do with Cerberus and you don't even need to do 1 single side quests.

Discovering who TIM is really had no place in the ME1 experience. We get to see that those guys are fucked up and eeeeeeeeeeeevil, and that's what really matters. That's your foreshadowing. When you finally meet TIM, you get to see that Cerberus isn't entirely made of comic book villains...

Again, it's not that TIM isn't in ME1, it's that in 2007, when ME1 hit shelves TIM DID NOT EXIST in the minds of the writers. They ended up pulling him out of their ass in the novels when they started thinking about what to do with ME2, and so they introduced him in the novels. Now, there's legitimate arguments that you shouldn't know about the collectors, but, if we take ME2 at face value, TIM is a codename that comes up repeatedly in Cerberus Comms. In the events of 1 we should have at least heard the name several times, even if we had no idea who he was. Instead, there's nothing. No mention. No reference. The name is never used.

Now, if Mass Effect is supposed to be well written, and if it was actually planned out from the start: the codename (and probably NOTHING ELSE) should have appeared in ME1. But... nope... nada.